How would you go about "growing" a small EC parish?

[babochka]

I would not necessarily expect the information to be formally or publicly disseminated. They represent a personal commitment, not necessarily a policy. It was mentioned to me in a conversation I had with my pastor last week, which was inspired by this thread. We were discussing the general state of the parish, and how he perceived other parishes were doing, based on his experience at the clergy conference. It was not the first time I’d heard it, however. I’ve heard it from the bishop himself and from those who work closely with him, and the experience of many parishes in the eparchy rather confirms it. We have a good number of parishes with fewer than 25 families. Technically, you need that many families to even reach “mission” status, yet we are all still here. We have received a great deal of help from the eparchy in a number of ways, just to stay afloat. Thanks to donations from outside the parish, these days we are managing to pay our bills, but it has not always been the case.

One more thing in this train of thought. Talk to Bishop Gerald. He is very approachable and seems to want to know the people of the Eparchy. Let him know your concerns about your parish and give him a chance to help. I would try to find an opportunity to discuss the problem in person. He’s always been happy to have a one-on-one conversation the times that I have seen him. He has fewer souls in his flock than many Latin Rite pastors. I think that would be a better place to start than a fomal letter or “escalation of the matter”. Maybe bring somebody with you. Listen to what he has to say. He is pastoral and concerned and has a good amount of wisdom as well.

 

[Draper]

I would not necessarily expect the information to be formally or publicly disseminated. They represent a personal commitment, not necessarily a policy. It was mentioned to me in a conversation I had with my pastor last week, which was inspired by this thread. We were discussing the general state of the parish, and how he perceived other parishes were doing, based on his experience at the clergy conference. It was not the first time I’d heard it, however. I’ve heard it from the bishop himself and from those who work closely with him, and the experience of many parishes in the eparchy rather confirms it. We have a good number of parishes with fewer than 25 families. Technically, you need that many families to even reach “mission” status, yet we are all still here. We have received a great deal of help from the eparchy in a number of ways, just to stay afloat. Thanks to donations from outside the parish, these days we are managing to pay our bills, but it has not always been the case.

It should be publicly disseminated in my opinion. Very clearly, very carefully and very formally so everyone is on the same page.

Some members of the parish have related their fears and anxieties to me regarding a possible closure. Apparently (I did not hear it for myself) the potential for closure has been used as an attempted “motivator” of sorts in the past which I find to be reprehensible.

There is now confirmed talk about trying to start another mission within 30 miles of the existing parish. Talk about corrosive gossip! Not only would it cleave our existing parish, there seems to be absolutely no evidence of demand for such a mission. All it does is add to the gossip, uncertainty and fear of the future. The parish would be far better off organizing a ride-sharing program.

 

[babochka]

It should be publicly disseminated in my opinion. Very clearly, very carefully and very formally so everyone is on the same page.

Some members of the parish have related their fears and anxieties to me regarding a possible closure. Apparently (I did not hear it for myself) the potential for closure has been used as an attempted “motivator” of sorts in the past which I find to be reprehensible.

Why? So the bishop can be accused of breaking promises if his good intentions turn out to not be sustainable? It is not set in stone, it is not a promise; it is an intention, a plan, a way of seeing things. In spite of anyone’s good intentions, the fear of closure can be a good motivator. Sometimes the impossible cannot be done. I can tell you that there has been an extraordinary committment to keep my parish open through some very dark times. We were without a priest for about 3 years. During that time, a priest from a city 2 1/2 hours away took care of our parish, in addition to his own. He drove to say liturgy for us every week for 3 years. Sometimes, there were only 4 or 5 people in the church, but he kept coming. Usually on Saturday, but sometimes, if he could find a substitute for his own parish, he came on Sunday. There was no solid plan for relief from this grueling schedule. We have received substantial help in other ways from the eparchy. That’s what I mean by committed to not closing parishes. Please don’t misinterperet what I said to somehow hold Bishop Gerald personally responsible if, God forbid, the worst should happen.

There is now confirmed talk about trying to start another mission within 30 miles of the existing parish. ** Talk about corrosive gossip!** Not only would it cleave our existing parish, there seems to be absolutely no evidence of demand for such a mission. All it does is add to the gossip, uncertainty and fear of the future. The parish would be far better off organizing a ride-sharing program.

So why are you choosing to spread such gossip to the whole internet?

 

[Draper]

Why? So the bishop can be accused of breaking promises if his good intentions turn out to not be sustainable? It is not set in stone, it is not a promise; it is an intention, a plan, a way of seeing things. In spite of anyone’s good intentions, the fear of closure can be a good motivator. Sometimes the impossible cannot be done. I can tell you that there has been an extraordinary committment to keep my parish open through some very dark times.

We were without a priest for about 3 years. During that time, a priest from a city 2 1/2 hours away took care of our parish, in addition to his own. He drove to say liturgy for us every week for 3 years. Sometimes, there were only 4 or 5 people in the church, but he kept coming. Usually on Saturday, but sometimes, if he could find a substitute for his own parish, he came on Sunday. There was no solid plan for relief from this grueling schedule. We have received substantial help in other ways from the eparchy. That’s what I mean by committed to not closing parishes. Please don’t misinterperet what I said to somehow hold Bishop Gerald personally responsible if, God forbid, the worst should happen.

So why are you choosing to spread such gossip to the whole internet?

Not at all. The biggest reason is to cut through rumors – rumors are cancer to organizations. In my parish (and others) for example, the is a concern about the value of the real estate the parish church sits on and the long held fear by some that it will be closed/relocated in order to sell the property. That’s the sort of concern that could be laid to rest (or validated I suppose) once and for all.

Second – to clearly lay things out – what is expected of each mission/parish and that ultimately the future of each parish is in the hands of God through His faithful actually comprising the parish and not in the eparchy. In other words there are no master plans (based on politics) to close parishes that are indeed financially sustainable.

Instead of such communications we are left with fear and uncertainty.

I’m not “gossiping.” I am discussing fact.

 

[dvdjs]

I The struggle by individuals to control things at the parish is sickening.

Although you are the only parishioner from that parish who seems to be posting here, I think that you, interestingly, have made a compelling case.

On the other hand, when I read recent articles from other members of your parish in Light of the West, eparchyofphoenix.org/newsletter.html, I get a different picture.
Considerable parish activity - retreats, serious Bible study, and meaningful collaborations, celebrations, and concelebrations with local RC’s. A beautifully renovated temple with strikingly lovely services: I like the new vestments that were sewn by Matushka. An outreach started 120 miles from your parish.

I am not sure where the rumors are coming from. You mention that you got the idea from reading about parishes in the East on the internet, and also mention that you heard it from others in the parish. This spirit of idle chatter is one that we pray (St. Ephraim) be taken from us. Of all of the things that you have written about, it appears to me that this is the most unhealthy thing in your parish. It is also the one over which you have the greatest control.

Working to end that chatter is probably the best thing that you can do for your parish. Best wishes for your success.

 

[Draper]

Although you are the only parishioner from that parish who seems to be posting here, I think that you, interestingly, have made a compelling case.

On the other hand, when I read recent articles from other members of your parish in Light of the West, eparchyofphoenix.org/newsletter.html, I get a different picture.
Considerable parish activity - retreats, serious Bible study, and meaningful collaborations, celebrations, and concelebrations with local RC’s. A beautifully renovated temple with strikingly lovely services: I like the new vestments that were sewn by Matushka. An outreach started 120 miles from your parish.

I am not sure where the rumors are coming from. You mention that you got the idea from reading about parishes in the East on the internet, and also mention that you heard it from others in the parish. This spirit of idle chatter is one that we pray (St. Ephraim) be taken from us. Of all of the things that you have written about, it appears to me that this is the most unhealthy thing in your parish. It is also the one over which you have the greatest control.

Working to end that chatter is probably the best thing that you can do for your parish. Best wishes for your success.

I suspect when all is said and done, one of the things that concerns me the most is that those over 500 miles away really have no idea what’s going on in the parish on a day to day basis in terms of how people are treated and the resultant low parish morale. They reach they same conclusions you have for the parish.

 

[Draper]

…On the other hand, when I read recent articles from other members of your parish in Light of the West, eparchyofphoenix.org/newsletter.html, I get a different picture.

You need to dig a bit deeper. Actually you need to dig a lot deeper and not allow yourself to be spoon fed.

Considerable parish activity - retreats, serious Bible study, and meaningful collaborations, celebrations, and concelebrations with local RC’s. A beautifully renovated temple with strikingly lovely services: I like the new vestments that were sewn by Matushka. An outreach started 120 miles from your parish.

“Retreats”? Really? Hmmm…

“…meaningful collaborations, celebrations, and concelebrations with local RC’s…”? Are you actually serious? That’s almost offensive. Then again, all you have is the above source so your comments are understandable.

The church was remodeled long before the current pastor arrived. It was completed before his predecessor arrived as well. The DL’s are no better or worse than they were under the two former pastors.

Sewing new vestments is a lot easier than doing something that’s truly needed – like growing the parish. But it does make for a great story – and it does provide for a great diversion should someone ask about something truly important – like growing the parish.

Soon we might have an unneeded “outreach” just 30 miles from the parish. I cannot imagine the bishop would actually approve something so potentially harmful – but I have to admit it would make on heckuva story for the newsletter. A Sunday ride-sharing program wouldn’t be nearly as sexy to report on for the newsletter.

The worst part is that more and more the pastor appears to have given up on his parish. He has largely failed as a pastor (due to parishioner apathy in his eyes of course) and it now seems as though he’s trying to reinvent himself as a great EC missionary.

I am not sure where the rumors are coming from. You mention that you got the idea from reading about parishes in the East on the internet, and also mention that you heard it from others in the parish. This spirit of idle chatter is one that we pray (St. Ephraim) be taken from us. Of all of the things that you have written about, it appears to me that this is the most unhealthy thing in your parish. It is also the one over which you have the greatest control.

Then you didn’t comprehend what I wrote. I was fairly clear on this matter. In any event I have zero control over the pastor.

Working to end that chatter is probably the best thing that you can do for your parish. Best wishes for your success.

See above. It’s not my success. It’s the parish’s. Pray for the future of the parish.

 

[babochka]

“Retreats”? Really? Hmmm…

Perhaps you missed it. Your parish hosted the annual eparchial girls and women’s retreat last year. Quite a few women and teenage girls from your parish attended, your very knowledgable subdeacon (now deacon) was one of the presenters, your priest, his wife, and their visitors from Slovakia spent the weekend cooking for the retreatants, and we all filled your lovely church to overflowing on Sunday morning, the last day of the retreat.

The depth of knowledge of Deacon S. has made me a bit envious of the Bible Studies available at your parish. I would love to be able to spend more time learning from him.

**Sewing new vestments is a lot easier than doing something that’s truly needed **-- like growing the parish. But it does make for a great story – and it does provide for a great diversion should someone ask about something truly important – like growing the parish.

Sewing beautiful new vestments helps contribute to beautiful liturgy, and sometimes it is simply needed. She made some beautiful vestments for my priest, too. I was surprised that he was in need of new vestments; from a distance, his seemed fine. When I had a chance to see them up close, however, I could see the need. Regardless it wasn’t my call to make. You really don’t know everything about every situation, and it is possible that what you have been told about any given subject doesn’t represent the whole story.

 

[Draper]

Perhaps you missed it. Your parish hosted the annual eparchial girls and women’s retreat last year. Quite a few women and teenage girls from your parish attended, your very knowledgable subdeacon (now deacon) was one of the presenters, your priest, his wife, and their visitors from Slovakia spent the weekend cooking for the retreatants, and we all filled your lovely church to overflowing on Sunday morning, the last day of the retreat.

The depth of knowledge of Deacon S. has made me a bit envious of the Bible Studies available at your parish. I would love to be able to spend more time learning from him.

I didn’t miss anything. That was an eparchial event, not a parish event. Deacon S. has also moved (along with his family) out of the area.

Sewing beautiful new vestments helps contribute to beautiful liturgy, and sometimes it is simply needed. She made some beautiful vestments for my priest, too. I was surprised that he was in need of new vestments; from a distance, his seemed fine. When I had a chance to see them up close, however, I could see the need. Regardless it wasn’t my call to make. You really don’t know everything about every situation, and it is possible that what you have been told about any given subject doesn’t represent the whole story.

They can also be used a diversion to not talk about the truly important things – like growing a parish which is most certainly not a good thing.

I’m also not so sure what I think about terribly ostentatious (and overly hot) vestments given the rather frugal pontificate of Francis I? Terribly ostentatious new vestments also don’t seem that appropriate for a parish where rumors about possible closure due to finances circulate from time to time – especially when the old vestments were more than serviceable.

Let’s not forget the $3.5K closet that “had” to be constructed to house the fancy new vestments.

I do believe that rather senseless material goods projects have been taken on in recent times so they can be reported on in the eparchial newsletter and as a diversion from making progress in areas that are far more critical – like growing the parish.

For what it’s worth, I haven’t been told a darned thing by anyone. I have observed everything firsthand for myself.

 

[outremer]

I’d suggest evangelization of those who don’t hold the Catholic Faith, but that puts me in an extreme minority these days. But, evangelization is really the only way to grow a church, regardless if you are an Ordinary Form, Byzantine Rite, Extraordinary Form, Anglican Ordinariate, etc. parish.

 

[babochka]

I didn’t miss anything. That was an eparchial event, not a parish event. Deacon S. has also moved (along with his family) out of the area.

I’m sure your parish will miss him. I knew that he was there only temporarily, but what a blessing whileyou had him!

I’m also not so sure what I think about terribly ostentatious (and overly hot) vestments given the rather frugal pontificate of Francis I? Terribly ostentatious new vestments also don’t seem that appropriate for a parish where rumors about possible closure due to finances circulate from time to time – especially when the old vestments were more than serviceable.

I know. You made a whole thread about your opinion.

I do believe that rather senseless material goods projects have been taken on in recent times so they can be reported on in the eparchial newsletter and as a diversion from making progress in areas that are far more critical – like growing the parish.

Really? You really think that they would think about this in such a way? Just to have an article in a small-time newsletter for an eparchy that serves fewer than 1000 families? I never thought I’d say this, but I think you give people way too much credit.

For what it’s worth, I haven’t been told a darned thing by anyone. I have observed everything firsthand for myself.

Ok then. There is nothing that could have been hidden or misinterpreted. You do know everything. My mistake.

Can you share with us what you like about the parish? What strengths can be built upon? I mean, you’ve expressed disdain for your pastor and many of your parishioners. What’s good? What keeps you around in spite of the fact that you don’t seem particularly happy to be there?

 

[Draper]

I’m sure your parish will miss him. I knew that he was there only temporarily, but what a blessing whileyou had him!

I know. You made a whole thread about your opinion.

Really? You really think that they would think about this in such a way? Just to have an article in a small-time newsletter for an eparchy that serves fewer than 1000 families? I never thought I’d say this, but I think you give people way too much credit.

Ok then. There is nothing that could have been hidden or misinterpreted. You do know everything. My mistake.

Can you share with us what you like about the parish? What strengths can be built upon? I mean, you’ve expressed disdain for your pastor and many of your parishioners. What’s good? What keeps you around in spite of the fact that you don’t seem particularly happy to be there?

I asked “How would you go about “growing” a small EC parish?” Even here the excuse of new vestments is offered – just as it is in real life. That’s a big problem.

 

[Casilda]

I have been reading this thread for the suggestions. Our EC parish hosts a ByzCath mission that I have seen dwindle. The visiting priest travels just over 4hr. It used to be weekly, I have been told, then twice a month, then less. It seems extremely difficult to grow a mission like this when there is only a visiting priest. I have asked someone who does not attend the ByzCath divine liturgy anymore and they attend a RC parish. It’s closer, they have access to a permanent priest. I have heard about others who are said to be going to an EO equivalent. That’s very sad, in both cases. I have driven the 4hrs to visit the home parish of the visiting priest. I can not do that on a regular basis, so I really appreciate the priest when he does.

We have been told there is no priest to assign to this mission permanently. Or is it the lack of a base of faithful (numbers)? I believe they have waited too long if it is the latter. They have scattered. It is hard to evangelize and get people to visit when DL is canceled month after month. I consider one fortunate to have a permanent ByzCath priest.

 

[Draper]

Can you share with us what you like about the parish? What strengths can be built upon? … What keeps you around…

I like the DL – it’s as good as it has always been and I like community of some good friends. I also appreciate the history of the parish and would like to see it continue indefinitely.

I suppose there is also a desire down deep to experience this parish being led by a truly capable shepherd – much like the original pastor before he slowed down a bit due to age. In my mind its untapped potential is rather remarkable and it would really be something to experience it being fully realized.

 

[babochka]

I asked “How would you go about “growing” a small EC parish?” Even here the excuse of new vestments is offered – just as it is in real life. That’s a big problem.

You keep acting as if it has to be one or the other - new vestments, or outreach. They are apples and oranges. One does not divert from the other. If done properly, the former can help with the latter. Our main draw is our liturgy, and how it draws us into the mystery of Christ. Everything flows forth from the liturgy. Beautiful vestments contribute to beautiful liturgy. Whether they are to your personal taste or, in your opinion, a prudent use of resources, is irrelevant.

Can you consider that others aren’t making excuses, but they they simply have a different (and valid) perpective? I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying you ought to give others, most especially your pastor, the benefit of the doubt. From some of your posts, I get the feeling that you think that there is a concerted effort to prevent your parish from growing. Maybe I lack imagination, but this just does not seem possible to me.

I know you’re frustrated, but if you take the approach in person that you have taken online, it is no wonder you don’t get anywhere.

 

[babochka]

I have been reading this thread for the suggestions. Our EC parish hosts a ByzCath mission that I have seen dwindle. The visiting priest travels just over 4hr. It used to be weekly, I have been told, then twice a month, then less. It seems extremely difficult to grow a mission like this when there is only a visiting priest. I have asked someone who does not attend the ByzCath divine liturgy anymore and they attend a RC parish. It’s closer, they have access to a permanent priest. I have heard about others who are said to be going to an EO equivalent. That’s very sad, in both cases. I have driven the 4hrs to visit the home parish of the visiting priest. I can not do that on a regular basis, so I really appreciate the priest when he does.

We have been told there is no priest to assign to this mission permanently. Or is it the lack of a base of faithful (numbers)? I believe they have waited too long if it is the latter. They have scattered. It is hard to evangelize and get people to visit when DL is canceled month after month. I consider one fortunate to have a permanent ByzCath priest.

This is such a tough situation to be in. Our parish was without a priest for about 4 years and it was pretty devestating to our numbers. There was little consistency. Usually, the liturgy was on Saturday evenings, as the priest who was the administrator of the parish was at his own parish on Sunday mornings. The change was disseminated by word of mouth, usually at the liturgy the previous week. (This was before everyone had email.) Still, it kept us alive (just barely) during those years without a priest. The recovery has been a long process.

Technically, to even be considered an official mission, 25 stable families are required. This guideline is not followed in our eparchy, where 4 of our 19 parishes do not meet even the standard for a mission.

 

[Draper]

You keep acting as if it has to be one or the other - new vestments, or outreach. They are apples and oranges. One does not divert from the other. If done properly, the former can help with the latter. Our main draw is our liturgy, and how it draws us into the mystery of Christ. Everything flows forth from the liturgy. Beautiful vestments contribute to beautiful liturgy. Whether they are to your personal taste or, in your opinion, a prudent use of resources, is irrelevant.

Like it or not, things like the new vestments are mentioned in a defensive manner by some during informal discussions about how to grow the parish. Shift the focus away from something challenging and critically important to something already achieved.

I’m not entirely sure these new vestments “contribute to beautiful liturgy.” They are so ostentatious they have an overbearing look to them. I don’t believe they make the liturgy any more beautiful than the fully serviceable vestments they replaced. I also think they advertise just how important material goods have become in the parish.

Can you consider that others aren’t making excuses, but they they simply have a different (and valid) perpective? I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying you ought to give others, most especially your pastor, the benefit of the doubt. From some of your posts, I get the feeling that you think that there is a concerted effort to prevent your parish from growing. Maybe I lack imagination, but this just does not seem possible to me.

I think there is a real effort by some not to face reality. To honestly sit down and discuss where things are, and where they need to go. Growing a parish takes a great deal of effort and time. Most of all it takes a team – a team that is listened to.

When the founding pastor retired, there was real hope that the parish would grow. It has not. Though very different than the current pastor, his replacement wasn’t a shepherd either. The real problem I see is that a number of years has passed since the retirement – and rather than slowly growing over those years due to implementing a plan of parish outreach and evengelization, the weekly census is actually shrinking and the parish morale is way down.

To give an example, when the current pastor began, there was a temporary and modest surge in attendance. People were curious – the new pastor was enjoying a honeymoon period. Rather than take advantage of that honeymoon period and do the things necessary to retain new parishioners, the focus of discussion was on enlarging the church (!!) and building more parking spaces (!!)

I can still remember his “concern” that people would be turned away due to an overloaded church.

The parish could have almost tripled in size before more church space was necessary – and then it should have come in the form of a second DL. Parking is an absolute non-starter – there is all kinds of free street parking surrounding the church. Yet that remained the focus until his honeymoon period ended and the census began to erode.

Adding onto the church and building a new parking space would have made for a very sexy newsletter article however…

 

[SyroMalankara]

Some priests are very pastoral, some wonderful singers, others really great confessors, others are great administrators, others are great fundraisers, etc. Not very many are all of these at the same time. There are those that can only do one or two of these well, such as fundraising and building, and so they focus on this while doing the minimum necessary around the other needs to get by.

Not saying what’s right or wrong here, but priest are people too. Sometimes the other clergy, parish members, etc need to pick up the slack where the priest is lacking. If this is not possible, let the priest know your concerns and that you may be speaking to your bishop about your worries.

 

[Draper]

Some priests are very pastoral, some wonderful singers, others really great confessors, others are great administrators, others are great fundraisers, etc. Not very many are all of these at the same time. There are those that can only do one or two of these well, such as fundraising and building, and so they focus on this while doing the minimum necessary around the other needs to get by.

There’s truth to what you say. The problems begin when critically important thing (such as parish outreach, evengelization and fundraising) are completely ignored in order to focus on things that actually could be ignored (new vestments, new candle stands, etc.)

Not saying what’s right or wrong here, but priest are people too. Sometimes the other clergy, parish members, etc need to pick up the slack where the priest is lacking. If this is not possible, let the priest know your concerns and that you may be speaking to your bishop about your worries.

I fully admit that parish outreach, evengelization and fundraising are difficult – very difficult, and that many pastors are not good at it. But there still needs to be a real, ongoing effort in all of these areas.

Many (including me) have made our concerns/ideas known to the pastor for quite some time. His response is to either reject our concerns/ideas on the spot (often in front of others) or simply ignore them (especially when done in writing or via email.)

To be honest, it would be easiest to simply “float away” from the parish as millions of Catholics do across the world. But there is something gnawing away at me that has not allowed that.

 

[Peter_J]

Draper, if you don’t mind me thinking out loud, as they say, I would like to ask if you think this thread has run it’s course? I say this because I cannot help wondering whether, at this point, the rest of us are just encouraging you to indulge yourself vis a vis your feeling towards your parish and your priest.