How would you go about proving God's existence to an atheist or agnostic?

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Gilbert Keith:
Bishop Sheen remarked:

“For the new atheism is not like the old, theoretical atheism, which prided itself on being intellectually compounded of a little science, anthropology, and comparative religion. The new atheism is not of the intellect, but of the will; it is an act of free and eager rejection of morality and its demands. It starts with the affirmation of self and the denial of the moral law.”
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Whoa, then it seems I am an old-school atheist. Do I have to change my nick?
 
AnAtheist

As I’ve said before in this and other forums … I think the intellectual objections to theism are really a cover for something else … that atheists don’t want God to exist. And I think this has always been so with atheists, though you rarely find one who will admit it, A.J. Ayer being the most notable recent exception.

The infamous Marquis de Sade, for example, argued atheism as a justification for his own various brands of cruelty. If there is no God, he said, everything is permitted. Enjoy it all, he argued in his “Dialogue between a Dying Man and a Priest.”

But as to Bishop Sheen’s remarks, you will find a new thread developing that theme in the Apologetics Forum. It is titled “Religion and Morality.” A special challenge is offered to all atheists to join us there.
 
Gilbert Keith:
Anyway, as to the question that governs this thread, I think you cannot prove anything to an atheist or agnostic.
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This is an interesting statement. It doesn’t’ say that the proofs are invalid or they don’t prove the existence of the Creator but it say you can’t prove it to an atheist. (emphasis mine)

I believe this is a bit pessimistic. Yes, there are atheists that are invincibly ignorant because they won’t take an unbiased look at the logic and reason. But I have more faith that God has given people the talent to open others eyes and some, even most, atheists can be convinced.
 
Nan S:
Moreover, and more relevant to this thread, Jesus also commented on the futility of using supernatural proofs to convert those among us who are unconvinced by ordinary proofs and logic.
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The position of the Catholic Church as stated in the catechism is that a person can come to know that the Creator exists through the use of logic and reason. This only clears the way for the faith that is needed to accept full revelation.

Faith is still a leap over a chasm. Logic and reason can bring you up to the edge. Revelation will bring you from the other side to eternal life. But, the chasm is not the Grand Canyon, it is a crack in a sidewalk.
 
MARANATHA

But I have more faith that God has given people the talent to open others eyes and some, even most, atheists can be convinced.
Can or will?
 
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Maranatha:
The position of the Catholic Church as stated in the catechism is that a person can come to know that the Creator exists through the use of logic and reason. This only clears the way for the faith that is needed to accept full revelation.

Faith is still a leap over a chasm. Logic and reason can bring you up to the edge. Revelation will bring you from the other side to eternal life. But, the chasm is not the Grand Canyon, it is a crack in a sidewalk.
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I did a survey on this topic in the Apologetics forum, trying to learn the most effective way to convince someone that God exists: THEISTS ONLY: Why do you believe in God? The results were interesting and unexpected.

About 70% said they believe because of logic and reason.
About 34% said they believe because of a miraculous or profound life-changing experience.
The other possible responses only got a few votes.
(Voters were allowed to select more than one answer.)
 
NanS

*About 70% said they believe because of logic and reason.
About 34% said they believe because of a miraculous or profound life-changing experience.
The other possible responses only got a few votes.
*
Every one of those people starts from the premise of hoping that God exists.

Every atheist I have ever known starts from the premise of hoping that God does not exist. If that were not so, they were not fight so vigorously to make the logic conform to the hope.

Logic and reason follow the hope in either case.

HOPE … a virtue much practiced but hardly ever talked about.
 
Gilbert Keith:
MARANATHA

But I have more faith that God has given people the talent to open others eyes and some, even most, atheists can be convinced.
Can or will?
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Eventually everyone faces a life changing event like their own immanent demise. This can force them to examine their deepest beliefs. It can cause a complete shift in direction. I believe most atheists don’t die with their beliefs unchanged.
 
I believe most atheists don’t die with their beliefs unchanged.

Yes, hope trumps cynicism at the end … in most cases. I have seen it.
 
Gilbert Keith:
Kebsbach

Overall i agree with the Cattykism that clear and converging proofs abound. In this day and age, there isn’t much excuse for not being theistic.

I agree that these “proofs” point to the existence of a Creator God. However, these proof are not “clear and convincing” to an atheist for the following reason. Remember the parable of Jesus pointed out by NanS. If you are an atheist, it is because you want to be one, not because there is logical proof against God.

Bishop Sheen remarked:

“For the new atheism is not like the old, theoretical atheism, which prided itself on being intellectually compounded of a little science, anthropology, and comparative religion. The new atheism is not of the intellect, but of the will; it is an act of free and eager rejection of morality and its demands. It starts with the affirmation of self and the denial of the moral law.”

*And the best way to refute the moral law, from the atheist’s point of view, would be to reject the Creator of the moral law. *

The atheist is at heart a rebel. He will not serve.
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I certainly have encountered atheists who fit this description, and in general I often get into conversations in which the other party is willfully rigid and impervious to reason, according to my understanding anyway. But then those guys probbly feel the same way about us.

But this is what impresses me. There doesn’t seem to be a positive formal argument for atheism. It is the default position taken cuz one perceives flaws in positive theistic proofs. The other guys are debunkers who sit back and pick at others arguments. On the other hand there have been numerous attempts to prove by reason what religious folks also know by faith and experience. e.g. Peter Kreeft counts over 20 theistic proofs that have been made. It just seems very counterintuitive that they are all wrong.
 
Gilbert Keith:
AnAtheist

As I’ve said before in this and other forums … I think the intellectual objections to theism are really a cover for something else … that atheists don’t want God to exist.
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Constant repition of an argument does not make it true.
What someone wants to exists or not to exist is of no consequence to the reality of the item in question. And atheists think, reality does not contain a god. No matter whether they want that or not. Is that so difficult to understand?
 
Well, my expectations of religious forums are rapidly met, so this is probably my last post for the time being. If anybody feels that there is unfinished business, please contact me by PM.
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Krebsbach:
But then those guys probbly feel the same way about us.
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I’m sure that those guys reciprocate the feeling.
But this is what impresses me. There doesn’t seem to be a positive formal argument for atheism. It is the default position taken cuz one perceives flaws in positive theistic proofs. The other guys are debunkers who sit back and pick at others arguments. On the other hand there have been numerous attempts to prove by reason what religious folks also know by faith and experience. e.g. Peter Kreeft counts over 20 theistic proofs that have been made. It just seems very counterintuitive that they are all wrong.
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The definition game, again. To disambiguate, let’s compare how theists commonly define atheists and agnostics (T) and how they self-define (A).

atheist(T): Makes the positive claim that deities do not exist.
agnostic(T): Is undecided whether or not deities exist.

atheist(A): Does not affirm that deities exist, but generally makes no positive belief claim one way or the other.
agnostic(A): Does not affirm to have knowledge that deities exist, but generally makes no positive knowledge claim one way or the other.

It is incorrect to equate atheists(A) with agnostics(T), by the way. Atheists(A) are justifiably sceptical about the existence of deities and there is not the least bit of indecision about it. For reasons of metaphysical fairness, with the exception of strong atheists they simply stop short of making a positive claim by themselves.

In short, the burden of proof does not rest on atheists(A), but on the theist. Atheists(A) don’t need to make a formal argument, they don’t need apologetics, and they don’t even owe theists an explanation for their lack belief.

I personally enjoy debunking theist arguments, not because I feel obliged to satisfy myself of their lack of validity, but for the mental exercise. Nevertheless, I maintain that theists are free to believe as they will, I just wish they’d leave everybody else alone.

Finally, it is fallacious to state that the truth of a claim is stronger for the number of purported proofs.
 
Attention: An Atheist, ALL ATHEISTS
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tossolul:
any suggestions, or is it not possible?
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Ask the atheist/agnostic to explain why the CONSECRATED BREAD AND CONSECRATED WINE in Lanciano NOW HAVE TINY BLOOD VESSELS. Ask them why these Human Heart Muscles HAVE NOT DECAYED THROUGH THE CENTURIES. Ask them why this Miracle happened in the BIRTHPLACE OF THE ROMAN CENTURION WHO PIERCED THE SIDE OF CHRIST. Bible says, “THEY SHALL REMEMBER HIM WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED.”

Atheists and agnostics can play the role of devil’s advocate and give us their criticisms on the pictures of the Consecated Bread and Wine now turned into Human Heart Muscle of Jesus Christ whose medical microphotographs are on these websites below.

negrisud.it/en/abruzzo/miracolo_eucaristico/shortdesc.html

negrisud.it/en/abruzzo/miracolo_eucaristico/photorecognition.html
 
AnAtheist

*Constant repition of an argument does not make it true.
*
What someone wants to exists or not to exist is of no consequence to the reality of the item in question. And atheists think, reality does not contain a god. No matter whether they want that or not. Is that so difficult to understand?

Likewise, constant repetition that reality does not allow the existence of a god also does not make it true, especially when you offer no proof (nor can you) that God does not exist.

But the reason for repeating this argument that atheists do not want God to exist is that it shifts the focus of the debate to where it really belongs. Atheists are made uncomfortable by the assertion because it requires they do some soul-searching about why they do not want God to exist. They will deny it up and down and accuse the theist of pleading some magical knowledge of the inner state of their souls.

But do they examine their own consciences? Do they ever begin to suspect that their motives are not the phoney motives of the theoretical atheist who says “Show me your God and I will believe in Him.” They have been shown God … but they are wearing blinders of their own devising.

“Blessed rather are they who have not seen, and believe.” Jesus
 
AnAtheist

Since you are an avowed atheist, you are most welcome to join us in the “Morality without Religion?” thread at the Apologetics Forum.

We are waiting for an atheist to show up.
 
** For the Atheists:

**If you can believe in dead matter creating the Universe why cannot you believe in God creating the Universe ?

Of the two theories i.e. whether dead matter created the universe or whether God created it, it appears more plausible to accept the concept of God as the creator.

A reality can be metaphysical (independent of physics or nature) and also verifiable.

Can you describe organisms for me. What are they? Who are they? Can I verify their existence?

I can neither explain them nor verify their existence by sense-experience. They are invisible by us. No one can experience their existence except by experiencing their evil work in their body.****
 
AnAtheist

Please check for my comment on your remarks.

Thank you.

Gilbert
 
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Maranatha:
The existence of evil is the only argument against the existence of an all powerful, knowing, loving and good God. In fact it’s the only argument against God that rises to the level of a proof. There are many arguments for the existence of God that rise to the level of proof but only one argument against.
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I’m relieved that someone will admit that pain is a proof against a loving God. I was starting to wonder if there was any chance for real dialogue. I was feeling like people and I were just talking past each other.
The answer to why God allows evil is free will. He could have created mindless automatons that praise and worship Him. In that case they could not truly love Him because love is given freely.

For God to be love he must love and be loved. To be loved there must be creatures of free will. If there is free will then some of the creatures may choose to turn away from God. Turning away from God is the definition of evil. The choice to turn away from God is the creation of evil.

The creation of evil and the fallen state of the universe is man’s fault not God’s.
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This is where we disagree again. I’ve used this example before, (I think on the “main reason for atheism…” thread), but I can’t think of another example right at the moment. If I have two children, I could try and control their every move. I wouldn’t be showing them much love, trust, or helping them grow though. So I have to allow them to make their own mistakes. I have to give them a chance to learn to listen to me because I’m right, not because I tell them to. To this degree, I am giving them free will. I am being a loving, trusting parent, who is doing the best for my children.

But is it still love if I let one child rape the other? Or kill the other? Or enslave the other? If a child walks into the fire and burns themselves, am I not obligated to help? Shouldn’t I run in and try and rescue my child if a rip tide pulls them out into the ocean? Have I stopped loving them if I don’t let them play with guns in the house? If one steals the other one’s dinner, is it love that makes me say,“That’s his choice. He has free will; you should put up with it and turn the other cheek.”
If you are suffering from pain or know someone who is suffering, please let me know, I’d like to pry for you.
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Thank-you for the offer. I’m not particularly badly off, though. Most of my pain is in the emotional department. I’d feel bad about taking your time when there are people with much bigger issues.
 
Everstruggling

*But is it still love if I let one child rape the other? Or kill the other? Or enslave the other? If a child walks into the fire and burns themselves, am I not obligated to help? Shouldn’t I run in and try and rescue my child if a rip tide pulls them out into the ocean? Have I stopped loving them if I don’t let them play with guns in the house? If one steals the other one’s dinner, is it love that makes me say,“That’s his choice. He has free will; you should put up with it and turn the other cheek.”
*
Yes, it’s still love because you are still giving them their freedom. The only alternative to freedom is slavery. God is not a slavemaster. That is the Devil’s job. He is very good at it.

When God lets someone rape another or kill another, it is not because He* wants* them to rape or kill.

But remember that the Devil wants them to rape and kill. Yet God has given us all sufficient grace to resist crime. If we do not resist it, we are rejecting God.

Is that any way for a son to behave?
 
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