How would your 'dream church' look like?

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I would change much of the sanctuary furnishings but overall it has a great deal of potential. The tapestries and the altar are especially impressive as is the limestone tile floor, the cherry wood pews and the wonderful pipe organ.
 
http://www.terragalleria.com/images/us-ca/usca35329.jpeg

I would change much of the sanctuary furnishings but overall it has a great deal of potential. The tapestries and the altar are especially impressive as is the limestone tile floor, the cherry wood pews and the wonderful pipe organ.
Good grief. Photographs simply do not do justice to the place. Looks like an airplane hangar here but the “live” effect is breathtaking – the light coming in through the walls of alabaster is so ethereal. I have never seen it in action as a liturgical setting. Nor, considering who the Bishop is, would I like to. But if the space were to be reverently used, without the liturgical dancers, I believe it would be compelling.
 
Good grief. Photographs simply do not do justice to the place. Looks like an airplane hangar here but the “live” effect is breathtaking – the light coming in through the walls of alabaster is so ethereal. I have never seen it in action as a liturgical setting. Nor, considering who the Bishop is, would I like to. But if the space were to be reverently used, without the liturgical dancers, I believe it would be compelling.
The natural lighting is awesome. So is its feeling of permanence. I don’t really think I have ever met anyone who has actually visited this cathedral who didn’t have a positive or at least a grudgingly neutral opinion about it.

For the record I would change the cathedra, the permanent “processional” cross, the main priests/deacons chairs, the sanctuary crucifix, and the ambo. If done correctly it would make a heckuva difference…

For the record, every Mass I have attended at this cathedral has been wonderful. No signs of liturgical dancers.
 
The natural lighting is awesome. So is its feeling of permanence. I don’t really think I have ever met anyone who has actually visited this cathedral who didn’t have a positive or at least a grudgingly neutral opinion about it.

For the record I would change the cathedra, the permanent “processional” cross, the main priests/deacons chairs, the sanctuary crucifix, and the ambo. If done correctly it would make a heckuva difference…

For the record, every Mass I have attended at this cathedral has been wonderful. No signs of liturgical dancers.
Yup: I’m a lover of dim gothic cathedrals myself, but OLA is absolutely spectacular. The architect is a genius – not only for the mastery of volume and light but for mounting that thing so that it can withstand a 27" lateral shift in an earthquake!

In one of the official brochures there are pictures of nuns dancing around the altar at the inaugural Mass .
 
Yup: I’m a lover of dim gothic cathedrals myself, but OLA is absolutely spectacular. The architect is a genius – not only for the mastery of volume and light but for mounting that thing so that it can withstand a 27" lateral shift in an earthquake!

**In one of the official brochures there are pictures of nuns dancing around the altar at the inaugural Mass **.
The other thing he got absolutely perfect is the slope of the floor. Just enough to make it easy to see without making it feel like a theater. The ambulatory (giant hallway) main entrance is also wonderful, with a retablo dating from 1608 AD that would make any tridentiner green with envy. Some of the pews also accommodate wheelchairs which I also think is wonderful.

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Retablo dating from 1608 AD – all hand carved

It’s sad that the great majority of those who criticize the cathedral have never visited it, have no clue about the setting in which it is located and often times point to only the worst (and never the best) liturgies that have taken place at this wonderful venue.
 
The other thing he got absolutely perfect is the slope of the floor. Just enough to make it easy to see without making it feel like a theater. The ambulatory (giant hallway) main entrance is also wonderful, with a retablo dating from 1608 AD that would make any tridentiner green with envy. Some of the pews also accommodate wheelchairs which I also think is wonderful.

http://www.olacathedral.org/zoom/images/retablo.jpg
Retablo dating from 1608 AD – all hand carved

It’s sad that the great majority of those who criticize the cathedral have never visited it, have no clue about the setting in which it is located and often times point to only the worst (and never the best) liturgies that have taken place at this wonderful venue.
You are correct. People judge by the photos and by the reputation of the Ordinary. But it certainly IS true that photographs do not do justice to the structure – not even the well-lit professional pics taken from a cherry-picker. Nothing seems to be able to capture the light quality. I went in expecting to HATE it and came out totallly converted. But then, I fancy that I can divorce my tastes from my sense of justice in these matters. :rolleyes:
 
You are correct. People judge by the photos and by the reputation of the Ordinary. But it certainly IS true that photographs do not do justice to the structure – not even the well-lit professional pics taken from a cherry-picker. Nothing seems to be able to capture the light quality. I went in expecting to HATE it and came out totallly converted. But then, I fancy that **I can divorce my tastes from my sense of justice in these matters. **:rolleyes:
That’s a fairly uncommon quality. Often when you discuss that structure, some go into an almost manic and canned diatribe covering their hatred of the cathedral. I don’t think they really have any clue just how ignorant and unschooled they appear.

They also seem terribly ignorant of history. Many of Frank Lloyd Wright’s designs were cruelly attacked while he was alive. To a large degree his genius was not celebrated until well after his death. I still don’t like some of the furnishings, but LA’s Cathedral has an already growing list of admirers…
 
Wow…I was going along with you until you said “all of this is optional.” Our Lord in the tabernacle is NOT optional. The people are. Many Masses are offered without a congregation, the angels notwithstanding.
The placement of the Tabernacle is what was optional. Our Lord is not. But it is my dream church to have no room at each and every Mass.

God Bless
 
That retablo is beautiful, but I guess it was made in the 17th century. I guess I’m retrograde, but if the photos of that cathedral are in any way representative of the building (and I don’t see how it could fail to be) then I think it’s awful.

What does anyone think now of the flying saucer “modern” architecture of 1958? I could be wrong, but I suspect that 50 years from now, they’ll be knocking structures like this down and wondering what on earth anyone was thinking when they built it.

Seems to me it would have been easier and perhaps less disconcerting to elevate the sanctuary than to go to all the trouble and expense of doing a subtly tilted floor. But I guess if the architect just couldn’t stand the thought of elevating the sanctuary or the celebrant over the people, then I suppose he would want to place them below the congregation. Seems to me that’s pretty representative of a certain way of thinking about the sacred.
 
That retablo is beautiful, but I guess it was made in the 17th century. I guess I’m retrograde, but if the photos of that cathedral are in any way representative of the building (and I don’t see how it could fail to be) then I think it’s awful.

What does anyone think now of the flying saucer “modern” architecture of 1958? I could be wrong, but I suspect that 50 years from now, they’ll be knocking structures like this down and wondering what on earth anyone was thinking when they built it.

Seems to me it would have been easier and perhaps less disconcerting to elevate the sanctuary than to go to all the trouble and expense of doing a subtly tilted floor. But I guess if the architect just couldn’t stand the thought of elevating the sanctuary or the celebrant over the people, then I suppose he would want to place them below the congregation. Seems to me that’s pretty representative of a certain way of thinking about the sacred.
Why?

Do you think you can answer without delivering the same canned diatribe of others? What actually makes you think this cathedral is “awful?”

The effect of the sloped floor AND the raised sanctuary (both conditions exist) is remarkable and it makes the sanctuary very handicapped accessible. Easily the best I have ever seen in any church – Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant. Do you think God is upset that we have a good view of the altar of sacrifice?

The tiled floor is wonderful – it radiates outwardly from the center of the altar throughout the building. Why would you note its “trouble and expense” as if they were bad things? Is God’s House not worth the “trouble and expense?”

It almost seems like you are searching (in vain) to find something “awful.” “Awful” to me is not being able to see a mightily elevated sanctuary from the 50th row in other churches because the architects didn’t have Dr. Rafael Moneo’s gift from God as architects.

Your comments I emboldened above sound like some of those directed towards Frank Lloyd Wright many years ago. Comments that time has shown to be terribly ignorant…

So try again. Let’s hear why you believe this cathedral is “awful.”
 
I’ll just say this-whatever OLA looks like on the inside, it is a monstrosity on the outside. That, at least, is it’s big downside. I will withhold judgement on the interior as the interior of any building can’t be properly experienced unless you go there.

And I need to add to what I said before-any church is beautiful so long as it is the absolute best a group can do. This is why the gothic cathedrals of Europe are worthy of God, and yet a mud hut in a rural third world country constructed with the same reverence and focus is just as worthy. A modern church intentionally designed to be cheap and ‘wooohoo, community!’ is not. It’s not so much the style, but the focus. A church can be plain and simple, or not gothic, romanesque, baroque, whatever, and still be respectful, traditional, and beautiful. It is unfortunate that almost all of our modern architectural knowledge has been focused into ‘expressing’ things rather than on beauty. We could have developed our own style that gracefully builds on the history of architecture in churches, but instead we get tripe…=
 
I’ll just say this-whatever OLA looks like on the inside, it is a monstrosity on the outside. That, at least, is it’s big downside. I will withhold judgement on the interior as the interior of any building can’t be properly experienced unless you go there.
Do you know what the term “monstrosity” even means? Honestly? Why do you say the cathedral looks like a “monstrosity” from the outside? Further, what makes you make the nonsensical statement that in essence you can judge the outside of a building but not the inside unless you go there?
And I need to add to what I said before-any church is beautiful so long as it is the absolute best a group can do. This is why the gothic cathedrals of Europe are worthy of God, and yet a mud hut in a rural third world country constructed with the same reverence and focus is just as worthy.
Yeah? So how do you define that? In the past some church buildings took several generations to build because it took that much time to raise the funds. Is that the standard?
A modern church intentionally designed to be cheap and ‘wooohoo, community!’ is not. It’s not so much the style, but the focus. A church can be plain and simple, or not gothic, romanesque, baroque, whatever, and still be respectful, traditional, and beautiful. It is unfortunate that almost all of our modern architectural knowledge has been focused into ‘expressing’ things rather than on beauty. We could have developed our own style that gracefully builds on the history of architecture in churches, but instead we get tripe…=
What? You need to refine your thoughts before posting them.
 
Everyone’s idea of “beauty” is different. I personally think that open space, empty walls, and bare wood and bricks are beautiful. So peaceful and soothing to the soul.

I don’t generally like a lot of clutter and bric-brac, although I do enjoy the elaborate decor in many of the very traditional Catholic churches. But as a rule, I prefer simple.

I have several walls in my home that are totally empty. I also have an antique secretary that only has a few candles on it–no knickknacks or books or anything. The secretary itself is beautiful without all the doo-dads. (Although I often pile it with seasonal doo-dads, especially at Christmas.)

But that’s just me. Others love all the doo-dads and clutter and visuals and pictures.

And that’s OK!

Some people believe that all the elaborate decor in churches helps us to picture heaven. But consider this viewpoint–many of us who have “cluttered lives” or who grew up in homes piled with clutter and junk find open space and bare walls much more “heavenly.”

Also, I fail to see how statues, gold, stained glass, murals, etc. fit in with the sacrifice on Calvary. I don’t think any of these beautiful things were present on Golgotha.

I am NOT condemning elaborate Catholic churches. I love them, too, and consider them castles and treasure houses! But I’m only questioning those who think that stark stripped down churches aren’t as “Massy” or “Catholic.” Well, I say that they are because Calvary was stark and stripped down, and that’s what Mass is–a re-presentation of Calvary. If we really want to concentrate on the Sacrifice of Our Lord, we would have no distractions–a crucifix, perhaps, and of course, the altar, and the Tabernacle containing Our Lord. To me, the people all around us are the only “decor” that was present at Calvary–some grieving, many complacent.
 
That retablo is beautiful, but I guess it was made in the 17th century. I guess I’m retrograde, but if the photos of that cathedral are in any way representative of the building (and I don’t see how it could fail to be) then I think it’s awful.

What does anyone think now of the flying saucer “modern” architecture of 1958? I could be wrong, but I suspect that 50 years from now, they’ll be knocking structures like this down and wondering what on earth anyone was thinking when they built it.

Seems to me it would have been easier and perhaps less disconcerting to elevate the sanctuary than to go to all the trouble and expense of doing a subtly tilted floor. But I guess if the architect just couldn’t stand the thought of elevating the sanctuary or the celebrant over the people, then I suppose he would want to place them below the congregation. Seems to me that’s pretty representative of a certain way of thinking about the sacred.
This retablo was made in Spain and installed at San Juan Capistrano THIS YEAR!
http://www.adoremus.org/NewABart/RetabloFull.jpg
 
Why?

Do you think you can answer without delivering the same canned diatribe of others? What actually makes you think this cathedral is “awful?”

The effect of the sloped floor AND the raised sanctuary (both conditions exist) is remarkable and it makes the sanctuary very handicapped accessible. Easily the best I have ever seen in any church – Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant. Do you think God is upset that we have a good view of the altar of sacrifice?

The tiled floor is wonderful – it radiates outwardly from the center of the altar throughout the building. Why would you note its “trouble and expense” as if they were bad things? Is God’s House not worth the “trouble and expense?”

It almost seems like you are searching (in vain) to find something “awful.” “Awful” to me is not being able to see a mightily elevated sanctuary from the 50th row in other churches because the architects didn’t have Dr. Rafael Moneo’s gift from God as architects.

Your comments I emboldened above sound like some of those directed towards Frank Lloyd Wright many years ago. Comments that time has shown to be terribly ignorant…

So try again. Let’s hear why you believe this cathedral is “awful.”
While I will readily admit to being ignorant, it does strike me as typical of “modernists” to insist that those who do not like “modern” architecture are that way because we are ignorant.
Seems like the argument in favor of it is always elitist. “You don’t understand…that is symbolic of…The functional reason is…” It’s amusing to see afficionados of “modern” styles defend what, to most, is the indefensible. It’s like a foreign language to most. Aesthetic Esperanto. It’s like modern art…almost everybody hates it, but keep quiet because they know they’re supposed to admire it and know they’ll be accused of being ignorant and backward if they say the emperor has no clothes on.

I note in passing that almost nobody ever builds his own home in this manner, but goes for themes and techniques that have passed the test of time. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that, when free of the control of the elitists, people, in their “ignorance” soundly reject “modern” styles because they’re just plain ugly.

I know this even further exposes my ignorance and will draw further caustic comment, but ugliness, to me, is much like one Supreme Court Justice’s comment about pornography. He said “I can’t define it, but I know it when I see it.”

But, as Tom Wolfe commented concerning the subject, the elitists are in charge, and the client “has to take it like a man”. And so it is. (Oops! Another “canned diatribe”. Just can’t help myself, I guess.)
 
While I will readily admit to being ignorant, it does strike me as typical of “modernists” to insist that those who do not like “modern” architecture are that way because we are ignorant.
Seems like the argument in favor of it is always elitist. “You don’t understand…that is symbolic of…The functional reason is…” It’s amusing to see afficionados of “modern” styles defend what, to most, is the indefensible. It’s like a foreign language to most. Aesthetic Esperanto. It’s like modern art…almost everybody hates it, but keep quiet because they know they’re supposed to admire it and know they’ll be accused of being ignorant and backward if they say the emperor has no clothes on.

I note in passing that almost nobody ever builds his own home in this manner, but goes for themes and techniques that have passed the test of time. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that, when free of the control of the elitists, people, in their “ignorance” soundly reject “modern” styles because they’re just plain ugly.

I know this even further exposes my ignorance and will draw further caustic comment, but ugliness, to me, is much like one Supreme Court Justice’s comment about pornography. He said “I can’t define it, but I know it when I see it.”

But, as Tom Wolfe commented concerning the subject, the elitists are in charge, and the client “has to take it like a man”. And so it is. (Oops! Another “canned diatribe”. Just can’t help myself, I guess.)
Honest, Ridgerunner, OLA must be seen to be appreciated. As a dyed-in-the-wool lover of the high Gothic style, I am the LAST person on the planet who would be open minded about a place like OLA. In fact, I was NOT open minded, and only went to see it so that I could SAY that I had seen it and that my worst expectations had been confirmed.

I was completely converted by it. The approach from below, up into the plaza under that imposing bronze statue of Our Lady of the Angels, and the long walk through the dim ambulatory (with that glorious retablo at the end), then the entrance into the ethereal light of the nave is heart-stopping.

But you do have to appreciate that this is NOT a salute to tradition. And admittedly, I did not attend a liturgy there, so I cannot speak for that aspect of the building (which is THE aspect that counts).

But the garden of King Palms was serene.

http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos2299/2/51/86/2/27/7/727028651206_0_ALB.jpg
 
Honest, Ridgerunner, OLA must be seen to be appreciated. As a dyed-in-the-wool lover of the high Gothic style, I am the LAST person on the planet who would be open minded about a place like OLA. In fact, I was NOT open minded, and only went to see it so that I could SAY that I had seen it and that my worst expectations had been confirmed.

I was completely converted by it. The approach from below, up into the plaza under that imposing bronze statue of Our Lady of the Angels, and the long walk through the dim ambulatory (with that glorious retablo at the end), then the entrance into the ethereal light of the nave is heart-stopping.

But you do have to appreciate that this is NOT a salute to tradition. And admittedly, I did not attend a liturgy there, so I cannot speak for that aspect of the building (which is THE aspect that counts).

But the garden of King Palms was serene.

http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos2299/2/51/86/2/27/7/727028651206_0_ALB.jpg
Having never seen it in person, and having no real expectation of ever doing so, I will respect the fact that you like it. Looking at the photo and reading your description, it all seems rather tomb-like to me, and maybe that’s the point of it.

People have preferences. Some of them are cultural. Some are just idiosyncratic. For myself, I prefer those places that seem to be evocative of Mediterranean “brightness” over the “Teutonic woods” dimness of many Gothic churches. It’s hard to know whether that is “cultural” in the sense of patterns of expectation gained from parents and grandparents (and stretching back, perhaps for centuries) or in the sense of an approach to spirituality that also stretches back. But I truly believe much of how we react to things is strongly influenced by things more ancient than we know, and I think it’s perilous; perhaps even arrogant and unkind, to cut against the grains of that influence.

A quick story. I have heard other like it. My retired cousin took a liesully motor tour of Europe. While traveling toward the Brenner Pass to go into Austria, she came upon a valley that was the most beautiful place, in her mind, that she had ever seen. Fascinated, she turned up that valley, and the more she drove, the more beautiful it became to her. Everything; the colors, the structures, the gardening, the very landscape, was, to her, the closest thing to “perfect” she had ever seen. Ultimately, she came to a town named “Caoria”. She was floored. She knew her grandparents came from a town in Italy named Caoria, but had no idea at all where it was, until that moment. I have heard similar stories from others about that phenomenon.

It’s interesting (and Volodymyr’s beautiful photos bring it to mind) that Eastern Churches have a “look” that’s really much more than just a “look”. It is an expression of a particular approach to spirituality which is emphasized in their particular Churches. More than that, it actually is a “force” or an “influence” that is fullly intended to draw them in to that particular kind of spirituality that’s uniquely Eastern. If you insisted on making those folks go to Mass in a Lutheran-like church, you would be denying something very important about them. A convert from Lutheranism might, on the other hand, feel Eastern Churches to be too cluttered, too fussy, too distracting and ornate.

So, when this bishop or that, or this priest or that, insists that a Church be “modernized” or torn down and rebuilt in a modern style, I am always leery of it. What is happening then is that some architect’s “message” about spirituality, which is entirely idiosyncratic to him, is being conveyed instead of something that has grown up organically among a people over time. And God knows, all you have to do is ask some architect or afficionado what the deal is with some modern building, and they will go on and on and on about the “meaning” that is expressed; usually “meaning” that has to be explained if it’s to be understood at all. I truly think that’s why almost nobody ever builds his house in the “latest modern style”. It doesn’t resonate with the “ancestral memories” (not literally, but figuratively) within him. It’s somebody else’s pattern of thought which, though it might be interesting or even intellectually enlightening, is still alien to everything in his being. While it might be entirely pleasing to some, (which is fine) expecting idiosyncratic expressions to have a wide appeal is hit and miss at best.

I will have to admit I’m also influenced by my strong distaste for Ayn Rand, the Bauhaus School and all of the major contributors to the ways of thinking underlying the “modern” architectural styles. So there it is.
 
see here:
genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Liverpool/StAnthony1.jpg

St Anthony’s, Liverpool, England. Nice church, which I occasionally visit for TLM, but I’m put off these days because my car was broken into outside once while I was at mass.

Or theres here:

holyname.co.uk/

The Holy Name Church, Manchester.

Both offer altars for both NO Mass and TLM Mass, as the pictures show. Try the visual tour on the second site, its nice 🙂

See my sig for my local church, looks like it was once a church that did the latin mass, now we have a simple wooden altar infront of the sanctuary that we use. i think the video on the site has some decent pictures. All in all, a gorgeous church, and served by the Benedictine Monks of Ampleforth abbey, so you can be assured our mass is very reverent, (its NO, though!) sunday high mass is beautiful, with use of sung latin and incense, etc.

Matt
 
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