How would your 'dream church' look like?

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Ridgerunner,

Thanks for the nod in your post. Are you in the Missouri Ozarks?

You will note that I used the Cathedral Basilica of St. Louis and San Marco of Venice. Those are Latin Churches!

I like Churches that look like Churches, not like lecture halls or the Borg Ship.
 
see here:
genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Liverpool/StAnthony1.jpg

St Anthony’s, Liverpool, England. Nice church, which I occasionally visit for TLM, but I’m put off these days because my car was broken into outside once while I was at mass.

Or theres here:

holyname.co.uk/

The Holy Name Church, Manchester.

Both offer altars for both NO Mass and TLM Mass, as the pictures show. Try the visual tour on the second site, its nice 🙂

See my sig for my local church, looks like it was once a church that did the latin mass, now we have a simple wooden altar infront of the sanctuary that we use. i think the video on the site has some decent pictures. All in all, a gorgeous church, and served by the Benedictine Monks of Ampleforth abbey, so you can be assured our mass is very reverent, (its NO, though!) sunday high mass is beautiful, with use of sung latin and incense, etc.

Matt
I am anything but an architectural expert, but I have always felt that English Gothic is “cheerier” somehow than German. Maybe that’s part of the reason why they once called it “Merrie Olde England”.
 
Ridgerunner,

Thanks for the nod in your post. Are you in the Missouri Ozarks?

You will note that I used the Cathedral Basilica of St. Louis and San Marco of Venice. Those are Latin Churches!

I like Churches that look like Churches, not like lecture halls or the Borg Ship.
Agreed in all respects.
 
Since the Lord cares not for fancy buildings or big structures, I’d build a small simple church, with the required Tabernacle, Altar, etc. It is the people who matter the most to me. They are the spiritual stones of the Church, just as the cherubs are the angels who make up God’s throne - for the Church on earth is a replica of the Church in heaven, as we read in the Letter to the Hebrews.
Oh give me a break. Let’s get over this silly nonsense about God “not caring about fancy builidings”. Its nothing more than Protestant Childishness and iconoclasm. This is not the mind of the Church.
 
Oh give me a break. Let’s get over this silly nonsense about God “not caring about fancy builidings”. Its nothing more than Protestant Childishness and iconoclasm. This is not the mind of the Church.
What would your dream church look like? 🙂
 
While I will readily admit to being ignorant, it does strike me as typical of “modernists” to insist that those who do not like “modern” architecture are that way because we are ignorant.
“Modernists” huh? Just what is a “modernist” in your lexicon? That’s another misused term by “traditionalists.” OLAC is hardly “modern.” Yes, I would say your use of “modern” is indeed rather ignorant.
Seems like the argument in favor of it is always elitist. “You don’t understand…that is symbolic of…The functional reason is…” It’s amusing to see afficionados of “modern” styles defend what, to most, is the indefensible. It’s like a foreign language to most. Aesthetic Esperanto. It’s like modern art…almost everybody hates it, but keep quiet because they know they’re supposed to admire it and know they’ll be accused of being ignorant and backward if they say the emperor has no clothes on.
Are you going to get to the point of explaining why you feel the cathedral looks “awful?”
I note in passing that almost nobody ever builds his own home in this manner, but goes for themes and techniques that have passed the test of time. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that, when free of the control of the elitists, people, in their “ignorance” soundly reject “modern” styles because they’re just plain ugly.
Now it’s “just plain ugly” and “elitists?” Are you ever going to explain why you feel the cathedral looks “awful” – or at least concede your comments are based solely on your own personal taste and nothing more?
I know this even further exposes my ignorance and will draw further caustic comment, but ugliness, to me, is much like one Supreme Court Justice’s comment about pornography. He said “I can’t define it, but I know it when I see it.”
Aha! You finally have admitted to it! You feel the cathedral looks awful based on your personal taste. Enough said! It took a while but at least you finally admitted to it. The rest is noise.

Had you simply said “I feel the cathedral looks awful based on my own personal taste” I would never have questioned you.
 
Honest, Ridgerunner, OLA must be seen to be appreciated. As a dyed-in-the-wool lover of the high Gothic style, I am the LAST person on the planet who would be open minded about a place like OLA. In fact, I was NOT open minded, and only went to see it so that I could SAY that I had seen it and that my worst expectations had been confirmed.

I was completely converted by it. The approach from below, up into the plaza under that imposing bronze statue of Our Lady of the Angels, and the long walk through the dim ambulatory (with that glorious retablo at the end), then the entrance into the ethereal light of the nave is heart-stopping.

But you do have to appreciate that this is NOT a salute to tradition. And admittedly, **I did not attend a liturgy there, so I cannot speak for that aspect of the building (which is THE aspect that counts). **

But the garden of King Palms was serene.

http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos2299/2/51/86/2/27/7/727028651206_0_ALB.jpg
Masses there are awesome. The sound system is awesome and the Dobson pipe organ will give you goose pimples. They use a HUGE (and quite traditional looking) censer at most Masses to cloud the sanctuary in heavenly smoke. The homilists are remarkably good.

The building is fairly cool when no liturgy is taking place. But only when Mass begins does it really shine…
 
“Modernists” huh? Just what is a “modernist” in your lexicon? That’s another misused term by “traditionalists.” OLAC is hardly “modern.” Yes, I would say your use of “modern” is indeed rather ignorant.

Are you going to get to the point of explaining why you feel the cathedral looks “awful?”

Now it’s “just plain ugly” and “elitists?” Are you ever going to explain why you feel the cathedral looks “awful” – or at least concede your comments are based solely on your own personal taste and nothing more?

Aha! You finally have admitted to it! You feel the cathedral looks awful based on your personal taste. Enough said! It took a while but at least you finally admitted to it. The rest is noise.

Had you simply said “I feel the cathedral looks awful based on my own personal taste” I would never have questioned you.
So now I’m a “traditionalist” as well as “ignorant”. (Or am I now doubly ignorant, since you said it twice? Perhaps triply ignorant, as you seem to equate being traditional with being ignorant.)

As I mentioned to a poster who had manners, I have never seen it, and was willing, therefore, to stipulate to his/her subjective judgment that it is beautiful. However, it seemed to me, that it seemed rather tomblike in the photo and in description; something that might not seem so if one was there. The walls might not really look like mud at all, for example. I further explained to the polite one that I am uneasy about idiosyncratic interpretations of what is properly reverential, and have some respect, therefore, for those things that have stood the test of time. It would not be unreasonable, for example, to imagine that 200 years from now, no one will care what Ayn Rand thought about anything, but they will likely still read Shakespeare.

But since I’m ignorant, it hardly matters what I think. Ignorance, of course, is relative, none of us being infinite in knowledge. Since you are able to discern that I’m ignorant, you must not be. It is therefore incumbent on you, as a relatively less ignorant person, to tell me why it’s beautiful. Don’t be subjective, now, since you are obviously dismissive of the subjective judgments in which lesser beings indulge. Objectively, why should I regard it as beautiful? Upon reading your answer, I might be properly chastened and have nothing further to say. But on the off chance that I do have any further thing to say, I will.

As ignorant as I am, I actually do know what “Modernism” is, if that’s what you’re getting at in your first comment. I just like the term “Modernist” as a convenient way of referring to those who seem aggressive in affirming things that, to the greater part of mankind, seems innovative for the sake of innovation. I am willing to concede that my terminology might not quite meet the standards of the more enlightened. I therefore withdraw it.

“OLAC?”
 
So now I’m a “traditionalist” as well as “ignorant”. (Or am I now doubly ignorant, since you said it twice? Perhaps triply ignorant, as you seem to equate being traditional with being ignorant.)
I don’t label others, but some of your comments did appear to be without factual basis.
As I mentioned to a poster who had manners, I have never seen it, and was willing, therefore, to stipulate to his/her subjective judgment that it is beautiful. However, **it seemed to me, that it seemed rather tomblike in the photo and in description; something that might not seem so if one was there. The walls might not really look like mud at all, for example. I further explained to the polite one that I am uneasy about idiosyncratic interpretations of what is properly reverential, and have some respect, therefore, for those things that have stood the test of time. **It would not be unreasonable, for example, to imagine that 200 years from now, no one will care what Ayn Rand thought about anything, but they will likely still read Shakespeare.
No you didn’t. What you said was “…but if the photos of that cathedral are in any way representative of the building (and I don’t see how it could fail to be) then I think it’s awful.”

Further who are you to label Moneo’s work as an “idiosyncratic interpretation” and just who defines what is “properly reverential?”
But since I’m ignorant, it hardly matters what I think. Ignorance, of course, is relative, none of us being infinite in knowledge. Since you are able to discern that I’m ignorant, you must not be. It is therefore incumbent on you, as a relatively less ignorant person, to tell me why it’s beautiful. Don’t be subjective, now, since you are obviously dismissive of the subjective judgments in which lesser beings indulge. Objectively, why should I regard it as beautiful? Upon reading your answer, I might be properly chastened and have nothing further to say. But on the off chance that I do have any further thing to say, I will.
You said it – I didn’t.
As ignorant as I am, I actually do know what “Modernism” is, if that’s what you’re getting at in your first comment. I just like the term “Modernist” as a convenient way of referring to those who seem aggressive in affirming things that, to the greater part of mankind, seems innovative for the sake of innovation. I am willing to concede that my terminology might not quite meet the standards of the more enlightened. I therefore withdraw it.

“OLAC?”
Some extremists judge OLAC (Our Lady of the Angels Cathedral) based upon the ordinary, upon the fact that it does not look like St. Pats (thank God) in NYC and on an intense focus of a handful of extremely well publicized liturgical abuses that took place at its opening. That smacks strongly of ignorance.

When pressured here I received comments about wasting money on floor tiles, a sloped floor and a sanctuary that is not raised enough? Talk about grasping…

As I said, I really don’t care for the cathedra, some of the priests/deacons chairs, the permanent processional cross, the sanctuary crucifix or the ambo – but certainly non are “awful” nor are they “monstrosities.”

In the end, Moneo built a structure that does a great job of facilitating the presentation of world-class religious art, the word of God and ultimately the Eucharist to the faithful.
 
I don’t label others, but some of your comments did appear to be without factual basis. Twice you called me “ignorant”. Many would think of that as "labeling others.

(Re, being “tomblike”)
No you didn’t. What you said was “…but if the photos of that cathedral are in any way representative of the building (and I don’t see how it could fail to be) then I think it’s awful.”
Actually, I did say that. Please refer to my previous response to a later poster.
Further who are you to label Moneo’s work as an “idiosyncratic interpretation” and just who defines what is “properly reverential?”
** In this case, Moneo’s alone, it appears. If so, that’s a fair basis for calling it “idiosyncratic”. **

Some extremists judge OLAC (Our Lady of the Angels Cathedral) based upon the ordinary, upon the fact that it does not look like St. Pats (thank God) in NYC and on an intense focus of a handful of extremely well publicized liturgical abuses that took place at its opening. That smacks strongly of ignorance.
Ah, so I’m ignorant again. That’s three times if I don’t count “traditionalist” as meaning the same thing in your mind. Did I give you the slightest reason to believe I based anything on the Ordinary, on St. Patrick’s or any kind of liturgical abuses at its opening? No, I didn’t. I didn’t even know about whatever “liturgical abuses” you are talking about, and still don’t. Would it make me appreciate this structure more if I knew about them?

When pressured here I received comments about wasting money on floor tiles, a sloped floor and a sanctuary that is not raised enough? Talk about grasping…You were the one who brought up the tilted floor. Not me. You were quite proud of the fact that it allowed the congregants to see the altar. My only comment was that it had to be very expensive to do that, and I questioned whether simply raising the sanctuary might have had the same effect regarding visibility. I’ll grant that I am not terribly impressed with the idea of placing the altar so that the congregants look down at it. Seems like an obviously unfortunate choice of symbolism to me. Doubtless you differ on that. I said not a word about floor tiles. Only you did. I can’t see them in the photo, and so said nothing about them.

As I said, I really don’t care for the cathedra, some of the priests/deacons chairs, the permanent processional cross, the sanctuary crucifix or the ambo – but certainly non are “awful” nor are they “monstrosities.”
Well, since the photos don’t make the altar area very visible, I can’t comment on those, nor did I. But I’ll accept your judgment that they are not as they should be.
In the end, Moneo built a structure that does a great job of facilitating the presentation of world-class religious art, the word of God and ultimately the Eucharist to the faithful. **Or so he, in his own judgment, believed. Never mind what anyone else might think about it, or might have thought about it for centuries. That’s a problem I have with this sort of thing, really, as expressed to the polite poster.

But you still haven’t told me why it’s objectively beautiful and why I or anyone else should think so. **
 
Twice you called me “ignorant”. Many would think of that as "labeling others.
Nope. I referred to some comments as being steeped in ignorance. You seem to be the one referring to yourself as “ignorant.”
Actually, I did say that. Please refer to my previous response to a later poster. In this case, Moneo’s alone, it appears. If so, that’s a fair basis for calling it “idiosyncratic”.
You simply parroted another poster. You seemed to forget that negative quality in your first critique of OLAC.
Ah, so I’m ignorant again. That’s three times if I don’t count “traditionalist” as meaning the same thing in your mind. Did I give you the slightest reason to believe I based anything on the Ordinary, on St. Patrick’s or any kind of liturgical abuses at its opening? No, I didn’t. I didn’t even know about whatever “liturgical abuses” you are talking about, and still don’t. Would it make me appreciate this structure more if I knew about them?
So you say. Why did you call the cathedral “awful?”
You were the one who brought up the tilted floor. Not me. You were quite proud of the fact that it allowed the congregants to see the altar. My only comment was that it had to be very expensive to do that, and I questioned whether simply raising the sanctuary might have had the same effect regarding visibility. I’ll grant that I am not terribly impressed with the idea of placing the altar so that the congregants look down at it. Seems like an obviously unfortunate choice of symbolism to me. Doubtless you differ on that. I said not a word about floor tiles. Only you did. I can’t see them in the photo, and so said nothing about them.
Actually that’s not what you said. You said “Seems to me it would have been easier and perhaps less disconcerting to elevate the sanctuary than to go to all the trouble and expense of doing a subtly tilted floor. But I guess if the architect just couldn’t stand the thought of elevating the sanctuary or the celebrant over the people, then I suppose he would want to place them below the congregation. Seems to me that’s pretty representative of a certain way of thinking about the sacred.”

Extremely sarcastic to say the least. While you would not know this as you have never visited the structure, there is not a sense of “looking down” at the sanctuary. The slope of the floor is that gradual combined with the gentle elevation of the sanctuary – part of Dr. Moneo’s gift.
Well, since the photos don’t make the altar area very visible, I can’t comment on those, nor did I. But I’ll accept your judgment that they are not as they should be.
Please don’t ever accept my views.
Or so he, in his own judgment, believed. Never mind what anyone else might think about it, or might have thought about it for centuries. That’s a problem I have with this sort of thing, really, as expressed to the polite poster.
Thankfully others have not shared your mindset else we would all be living in caves and huts made of mud and sticks. Just exactly what architecture is “good” and what is “bad?” What rationale do you use? Seems like most around here revolt if it dosen’t look like some existing building. Why is that? Because the designs have weathered the test of time? Poppycock.
But you still haven’t told me why it’s objectively beautiful and why I or anyone else should think so.
Sure I did. OLAC was built as a facilitator of bringing religious works of art, the word of God and ultimately the sacraments of the Church – most especially the Eucharist to the faithful. In this instance the form of the building most certainly follows its function.

When present at the Mass you’ll be benefiting from the seating arrangement, the natural lighting, the awesome acoustics and many other qualities without really knowing it. From the ambulatory entrance to the ergonomic cherry-wood pews to the remarkable yet understated artwork, it’s all designed to focus and amplify our spiritual experience.

It’s not the sort of building that seats us behind a post with poor sight-lines, weird acoustics and enough foof to pull our attention away from what’s taking place in the sanctuary.
 
Call me crazy, but my idea of a “dream church” would be ANY style of church - from unfortunate 1950’s flying saucer to faux Gothic to brutally plain…as long as there was a full, vibrant Catholic school across the street. If we need to re-build anything, we need to re-build those, and find a way to fund them.
 
Do you know what the term “monstrosity” even means? Honestly? Why do you say the cathedral looks like a “monstrosity” from the outside? Further, what makes you make the nonsensical statement that in essence you can judge the outside of a building but not the inside unless you go there?

Yeah? So how do you define that? In the past some church buildings took several generations to build because it took that much time to raise the funds. Is that the standard?

What? You need to refine your thoughts before posting them.
Sigh…meaningful discourse seems lost on an architecture-snob-dogmatist.

I simply meant that effort is what makes a church worthy, and I didn’t claim to have a standard to judge it by. What I meant was; St Francis’ church that he built with the peasants is probably more worthy and pleasing to God than many fancy churches, but an incredible Gothic cathedral has had more love and devotion put into it than, say, my parish, which was built as quickly as possible and in a very unasthetic manner.

It hardly seems worth replying to everything else you said, as you seem bent on interpreting everything someone says as the words of a die-hard SSPX traditionalist who tolerates nothing but perfectly carved Gothic stone churches.🤷
 
“upon the fact that it does not look like St. Pats (thank God) in NYC”

What’s the use in talking to someone who wants to diss one of the most beautiful buildings on the planet? I can appreciate saying you don’t like the style, or it isn’t your preference, but saying thank God it doesn’t look like THAT is just way too far. You’re doing exactly what you’re accusing everyone else of! Ridiculous.
 
Nope. I referred to some comments as being steeped in ignorance. You seem to be the one referring to yourself as “ignorant.” ** Nice try.**

So you say. Why did you call the cathedral “awful?” No, you’re supposed to tell us why you consider it objectively beautiful. If you persuade me, it’s 'nuff said.

You said “Seems to me it would have been easier and perhaps less disconcerting to elevate the sanctuary than to go to all the trouble and expense of doing a subtly tilted floor. But I guess if the architect just couldn’t stand the thought of elevating the sanctuary or the celebrant over the people, then I suppose he would want to place them below the congregation. Seems to me that’s pretty representative of a certain way of thinking about the sacred.”

Extremely sarcastic to say the least. While you would not know this as you have never visited the structure, there is not a sense of “looking down” at the sanctuary. The slope of the floor is that gradual combined with the gentle elevation of the sanctuary – part of Dr. Moneo’s gift. ** It is you who say that his reverential sense is so good. A man of such genius must surely have had some reason for everything he did. I readily admitted that I have not visited the structure. Go back and read what I said. And is it not representative of a particular way of thinking to place the altar below the congregants? It has always been deemed appropriately symbolic to place the altar above the congregants. So if one changes that, especially one of Moneo’s parts, one can only assume that there is some purpose in it beyond mere visibility, since raising the sanctuary would do the same thing as far as visibility is concerned, and less expensively. Please explain to me, then, why it was placed below the congregants. **

Please don’t ever accept my views.** Well, I just did. You didn’t like certain things about the cathedral that I couldn’t see. So, not wishing to comment on something I couldn’t see, I took your word for it. Am I not free to do either agree or disagree with you?**

Thankfully others have not shared your mindset else we would all be living in caves and huts made of mud and sticks. Just exactly what architecture is “good” and what is “bad?” What rationale do you use? Seems like most around here revolt if it dosen’t look like some existing building. Why is that? Because the designs have weathered the test of time? Poppycock. ** But see, caves and huts made of mud and bricks have NOT stood the test of time. One reason is that they’re not attractive. Other things have been deemed attractive or inspiring and have stood the test of time. Why do you think people still read Aristotle or Homer? Because their writing is old? No, because, over the years, people have determined that they are meritorious. By the way, what did this structure cost? **

Sure I did. OLAC was built as a facilitator of bringing religious works of art, the word of God and ultimately the sacraments of the Church – most especially the Eucharist to the faithful. In this instance the form of the building most certainly follows its function.** Ah yes. “Form follows function”. And in what way would this differ from an airplane hangar that displayed even more religious works of art? Or fewer, perhaps, if your “foofofmeter” registers too high.**

When present at the Mass you’ll be benefiting from the seating arrangement, the natural lighting, the awesome acoustics and many other qualities without really knowing it. From the ambulatory entrance to the ergonomic cherry-wood pews to the remarkable yet understated artwork, it’s all designed to focus and amplify our spiritual experience.** Been in lots of those. How is this better?**

It’s not the sort of building that seats us behind a post with poor sight-lines, weird acoustics and enough foof to pull our attention away from what’s taking place in the sanctuary.** But see, those are all your subjective judgments. I thought you were going to tell us why we should consider it objectively beautiful. And are you really saying that all prior cathedrals put people behind posts, had weird acoustics and excess foof? What, to you, are weird acoustics? Too much sound carrying? Too little? Distortion? What? What is excess foof? Can you describe that concretely? For that matter, what’s foof? Would St. Peter’s qualify as having excess foof? **
 
**Tabernacle - pure gold, except for the cherubim (one on each door) which would be of pure silver. **

**Altar - of stone, no relics **

**Absolutely no statues - they are not obligatory anyway. A lot of “religious art” is appalling stuff. **

Separation of men from women

Icons of Martyrs

…that’s enough for now.
 
Call me crazy, but my idea of a “dream church” would be ANY style of church - from unfortunate 1950’s flying saucer to faux Gothic to brutally plain…as long as there was a full, vibrant Catholic school across the street. If we need to re-build anything, we need to re-build those, and find a way to fund them.
I agree wholeheartedly. My parish, which had a really thriving Catholic school, got itself a building committee, hand-picked by the (now retired, thankfully) bishop and the pastor. Spent $70,000 “renovating” the 100 year old church by dropping the ceiling, and $2.6 million on a parish hall. (Well, the church basement just wasn’t attractive enough for wedding receptions, notwithstanding that there is a municipal building you can rent for that very purpose for peanuts if you can’t stand the church basement). Well, that parish hall is kind of a bear to maintain, all right. And, of course, all the parish bureaucrats had to have offices, furnished, of course. And then too, the “school board” (hand-picked) couldn’t live without a computerized reading program that costs a lot. Well, the parish started running an $80,000/year deficit. So they spent the entire school endowment ($1 mil) on the parish hall and kicked up the school tuition in a big way. Soooo, a whole lot of the kids are going to public school next year, and parishioners are scattering to other parishes like quail.

As perfect an example of a misallocation of resources as I have ever seen in my entire life.
 
Sigh…meaningful discourse seems lost on an architecture-snob-dogmatist.

I simply meant that effort is what makes a church worthy, and I didn’t claim to have a standard to judge it by. What I meant was; St Francis’ church that he built with the peasants is probably more worthy and pleasing to God than many fancy churches, but an incredible Gothic cathedral has had more love and devotion put into it than, say, my parish, which was built as quickly as possible and in a very unasthetic manner.

It hardly seems worth replying to everything else you said, as you seem bent on interpreting everything someone says as the words of a die-hard SSPX traditionalist who tolerates nothing but perfectly carved Gothic stone churches.🤷
Wow, you’re really softening-up your position now. You began with “I’ll just say this-whatever OLA looks like on the inside, it is a monstrosity on the outside. That, at least, is it’s big downside” which is fairly offensive balderdash.
 
“upon the fact that it does not look like St. Pats (thank God) in NYC”

What’s the use in talking to someone who wants to diss one of the most beautiful buildings on the planet? I can appreciate saying you don’t like the style, or it isn’t your preference, but saying thank God it doesn’t look like THAT is just way too far. You’re doing exactly what you’re accusing everyone else of! Ridiculous.
First, I really like St. Pat’s. In its setting it’s a wonderful venue. While I hardly think it’s one of the most beautiful buildings in the world< do like it very much.

That said the reason I used St. Pat’s as an example is because it seems to be many traditionalists’ gold-standard – at least in the USA. A knock-off of St. Pat’s would have looked absurdly out of place at 555 W. Temple Street in Downtown LA.

It would also have been terribly foreign to our own Catholic history in this part of the world – the 21 California Missions. While OLAC is no California Mission clone, it does carry some design elements from the beloved California Missions. A St. Pat’s clone would not have and it would have looked very odd in the current cathedral’s place.
 
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