Human sacrifice in islam?

[Mr.Bee]

Those who say that they themselves would not obey this command are in fact saying that their faith in the wisdom of their Creator is severely limited by their own sense of reasoning when deciding on what is best for themselves.

I do not claim to know much, I am weak and lack confidence when compared to the Creator, I do not claim heroic decision making powers. I most respectfully fear being tested by God.

But again I need to point out to you hamba2han, you asked a loaded question, something I dare not ask you or anybody else in return.

I am not Abraham, neither are you or any of your billion Muslim brothers.

God did not ask for those children in Iraq to be sacrificed, some men carrying guns did.

God did not pose the question to me, you did, hypothetically on a internet chat forum.

I see a big difference, be careful with your judgement of me.

 

[hamba2han]

God did not pose the question to me, you did, hypothetically on a internet chat forum.

I see a big difference, be careful with your judgement of me.

Relax, I was not judging you personally.

My comments on this subject are with regard to the general attitude of most Christians and Jews… and sadly many Muslims as well towards this supreme act of sacrifice by Abraham (pbuh).

As previously mentioned, the creations should never be second-guessing the commands of their Creator.

Many just do not realise the true significance of Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his own son without question or hesitation when commanded to do so by his Creator.

This was surely the greatest sacrifice that anyone can possibly make i.e to kill his beloved child for it would have been a lot easier for him to sacrifice his own life instead.

I believe that this is an accurate indication of a person’s strength of faith i.e. an unwillingness to accept and obey what has been commanded by the Creator would signify that one’s faith is still weak.

 

[cestusdei]

Christistheway,
I have seen all of it right here on this site. You can check out the anti-cair site as well. I have explicitly asked muslims to condemn hamas and hezbullah. They refuse and call these terrorists freedom fighters. Don’t be fooled.

hamba, it is you who don’t understand what Abraham’s sacrifice was pointing too ie. Jesus Christ. He is the ram who took the place of Isaac. The problem here is that muslims don’t question such commands. Some imam tells them to blow themselves up and they don’t hesitate. You illustrate the problem in islam.

 

[Mr.Bee]

Relax, I was not judging you personally.

I believe that this is an accurate indication of a person’s strength of faith i.e. an unwillingness to accept and obey what has been commanded by the Creator would signify that one’s faith is still weak.

I hope you understand why I’m upset by the original question, but my faith is telling me not to run away from it.

I tried to be honest in my answer, and if that is a sign of weakness, so be it. But then again I think the context of the question was unfair, the circumstance are unknown, and I maintain that God would not command to kill someone you loved just for the sake of commanding, my faith tells me that God wouldn’t give you a reason to second-guess Him, and this is the crux to Abrahams willingness.

Our reaction and willingness is best left between you and God. I doubt a completely honest answer from anyone. Who knows what we’d do when face-to-face with the Creator.

I’m sure “the author of this thread” is thoroughly annoyed at the off-topic-ness of our conversation, if you want to take this somewhere else that would be fine.

Mr. B.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Islam means submission to the will of the Creator.

Prophet Abraham (pbuh) believed in the oneness and supremeness of his Creator and he did indeed submit to His will and therefore this makes him a follower of Islam i.e. a Muslim.

He neither questioned nor hesitated when commanded by his Creator to sacrifice his son and like I mentioned, this was a test of obedience to the Creator and ultimately of course a test of faith as well because it measured just how far he placed his faith in the infinite wisdom of his Creator to decide on what is best for him as the creation.

Those who say that they themselves would not obey this command are in fact saying that their faith in the wisdom of their Creator is severely limited by their own sense of reasoning when deciding on what is best for themselves.

So would you cry Allahu Akhbar whilst pressing the detonate button if Allah asked it of you?

 

[Montalban]

jack hawkins:

so you deny, against all the accepted writings of Islam, that Mohammed raided caravans and had people assassinated? you must hang with some strange people, as no Muslim I have ever spoken to has denied this

Pro_universal:

Yes. Both of those descriptions are not accurate. He did fight wars-killing the leaders of your opponents in a war is not a “caravan raid” or an assassination.

But regardless, please tell me which “historical sources” you were referring to. Which works of history paint this picture you have of Muhammad?

Muhammad lead armies into battle. He applauded political assassinations. (see Muhammad And His Personal Enemies at answering-islam.org/Muhammad/Enemies/index.html

Pro_universal has a remarkably short memory as I’ve evidenced this before…Muhammad allows someone to lie in order to kill someone.

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, “You may say it.” Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, “That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you.” On that, Kab said, “By Allah, you will get tired of him!” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food.” (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, “Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me.” Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, “What do you want?” Ka’b replied, “Mortgage your women to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?” Ka’b said, “Then mortgage your sons to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people’s saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you.” Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab’s foster brother, Abu Na’ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, “Where are you going at this time?” Kab replied, “None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na’ila have come.” His wife said, “I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka’b said. “They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed.” Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, “When Ka’b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head.” Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka’b replied. “I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume.” Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka’b “Will you allow me to smell your head?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka’b again, “Will you let me (smell your head)?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), “Get at him!” So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf.”
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369

Pro_universal relies on Answering-Islam’s non-standard references to pretend that these things don’t occur. They cite Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol.5, pp. 253,254, (answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/Muhammad/enemies.html) whereas they should cite the following*…

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 271:

Narrated Jabir:

The Prophet said, “Who is ready to kill Ka’b bin Ashraf (i.e. a Jew).” Muhammad bin Maslama replied, “Do you like me to kill him?” The Prophet replied in the affirmative. Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Then allow me to say what I like.” The Prophet replied, “I do (i.e. allow you).”

usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.271

con’t…

 

[Montalban]

or this event…

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 371

and

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 372:

Narrated Al-Bara:

Allah’s Apostle sent 'Abdullah bin 'Atik and 'Abdullah bin 'Utba with a group of men to Abu Rafi (to kill him). They proceeded till they approached his castle, whereupon 'Abdullah bin Atik said to them, “Wait (here), and in the meantime I will go and see.” ‘Abdullah said later on, "I played a trick in order to enter the castle. By chance, they lost a donkey of theirs and came out carrying a flaming light to search for it. I was afraid that they would recognize me, so I covered my head and legs and pretended to answer the call to nature. The gatekeeper called, ‘Whoever wants to come in, should come in before I close the gate.’ So I went in and hid myself in a stall of a donkey near the gate of the castle. They took their supper with Abu Rafi and had a chat till late at night. Then they went back to their homes. When the voices vanished and I no longer detected any movement, I came out. I had seen where the gate-keeper had kept the key of the castle in a hole in the wall. I took it and unlocked the gate of the castle, saying to myself, ‘If these people should notice me, I will run away easily.’ Then I locked all the doors of their houses from outside while they were inside, and ascended to Abu Rafi by a staircase. I saw the house in complete darkness with its light off, and I could not know where the man was. So I called, ‘O Abu Rafi!’ He replied, ‘Who is it?’ I proceeded towards the voice and hit him. He cried loudly but my blow was futile. Then I came to him, pretending to help him, saying with a different tone of my voice, ’ What is wrong with you, O Abu Rafi?’ He said, ‘Are you not surprised? Woe on your mother! A man has come to me and hit me with a sword!’ So again I aimed at him and hit him, but the blow proved futile again, and on that Abu Rafi cried loudly and his wife got up. I came again and changed my voice as if I were a helper, and found Abu Rafi lying straight on his back, so I drove the sword into his belly and bent on it till I heard the sound of a bone break. Then I came out, filled with astonishment and went to the staircase to descend, but I fell down from it and got my leg dislocated. I bandaged it and went to my companions limping. I said (to them), ‘Go and tell Allah’s Apostle of this good news, but I will not leave (this place) till I hear the news of his (i.e. Abu Rafi’s) death.’ When dawn broke, an announcer of death got over the wall and announced, ‘I convey to you the news of Abu Rafi’s death.’ I got up and proceeded without feeling any pain till I caught up with my companions before they reached the Prophet to whom I conveyed the good news."

usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.372

Here we see Muhammad sent someone out to kill an enemy of his

*The difference being that they have a written version and are citing page numbers.

 

[Sixtus]

We have had denominations of Christianity which support human sacrifices, that was one of the main errors erased by the Inquistion. Anyone who condemns the Inquisition are supporting those the Inquisiton sought to eliminate including those groups which gained prominance, supporting human sacrifices

 

[Valke2]

We have had denominations of Christianity which support human sacrifices, that was one of the main errors erased by the Inquistion. Anyone who condemns the Inquisition are supporting those the Inquisiton sought to eliminate including those groups which gained prominance, supporting human sacrifices

That’s pretty funny.

 

[Sixtus]

I am glad you think so.

You will no doubt be equally amused at how many hamlets ceased to exist as the ideal of ‘suicide as an act of supreme human sacrifice to God’ was gaining prominance.

If 32 people had to die how many more lives were saved by purging this evil form of Christianity.

How would Christians of all denominations react today if a group gained prominance, which taught that satan was the incarnate son of God and co-heir of creation?

I guess they would laugh at it. But if folk were flocking to fill their churches, there would be outrage.

Satan as the incarnate son of God, now that really is funny

 

[Valke2]

I am glad you think so.

You will no doubt be equally amused at how many hamlets ceased to exist as the ideal of ‘suicide as an act of supreme human sacrifice to God’ was gaining prominance.

If 32 people had to die how many more lives were saved by purging this evil form of Christianity.

How would Christians of all denominations react today if a group gained prominance, which taught that satan was the incarnate son of God and co-heir of creation?

I guess they would laugh at it. But if folk were flocking to fill their churches, there would be outrage.

Satan as the incarnate son of God, now that really is funny

If you are seroiusly attempting to position the INquistion as a weapon against those practicing human sacrifice, and if you would accuse anyone who opposed the Inquisition as supporting human sacrifice, then yes. I’d say that’s a pretty funny statement.

 

[Sixtus]

I find worship of satan as God not the least bit funny.

The Inquistion was supported by the bible.

There are many untruths told about Inquistion. If it was as bad as folk say, then why did folk try to get tried by Inquisition?

 

[Valke2]

The Inquistion is being discussed on one of the active crusader threads. I don’t want to derail this thread but would be happy to discuss it on the other thread or on a new one.

 

[Montalban]

We have had denominations of Christianity which support human sacrifices, that was one of the main errors erased by the Inquistion. Anyone who condemns the Inquisition are supporting those the Inquisiton sought to eliminate including those groups which gained prominance, supporting human sacrifices

a) which ones?
b) what basis did they do it? (cite teachings of Jesus)
c) what has this to do with the OP?

 

[Angelos]

We should also remember that Mohammed considered Jesus a human sacrifice only after replacing the Christian notion of redemptive sacrifice with the Islamic notion of deceptive sacrifice.

Mohammed’s Allah offers Jesus’ appearance & voice - His dignity and honour - as the sacrifice serving the deception of Jews through a miracle of substantiation. Thus, Issa in the Koran is the ultimate human sacrifice contributing to the expression of Mohammed’s hostility to Jews in a purely political context. Besides, I never read in Mohammed’s bible that Issa surrendered to this deceptive plan on His own will. Allah wants, Allah does! Pathetic Islamic prophet Issa is taken to heaven with no Jew knowing this fact since all are convinced of Issa’s crucifixion! 600 years after the Crucifixion, Mohammed stands up to reveal the truth and say to the Jews that Allah saved Issa from a humiliating death by abusing Issa’s face & voice and making Him equal to a murdered culprit!

Peace & blessings,
Angelos N.

 

[Montalban]

We should also remember that Mohammed considered Jesus a human sacrifice only after replacing the Christian notion of redemptive sacrifice with the Islamic notion of deceptive sacrifice.

Mohammed’s Allah offers Jesus’ appearance & voice - His dignity and honour - as the sacrifice serving the deception of Jews through a miracle of substantiation. Thus, Issa in the Koran is the ultimate human sacrifice contributing to the expression of Mohammed’s hostility to Jews in a purely political context. Besides, I never read in Mohammed’s bible that Issa surrendered to this deceptive plan on His own will. Allah wants, Allah does! Pathetic Islamic prophet Issa is taken to heaven with no Jew knowing this fact since all are convinced of Issa’s crucifixion! 600 years after the Crucifixion, Mohammed stands up to reveal the truth and say to the Jews that Allah saved Issa from a humiliating death by abusing Issa’s face & voice and making Him equal to a murdered culprit!

Peace & blessings,
Angelos N.

Then al-Lah deceived the people by making it appear that Jesus had been killed, when he hadn’t.

 

[Angelos]

Then al-Lah deceived the people by making it appear that Jesus had been killed, when he hadn’t.

Yes, of course! The uncanny thing is that Muslims are proud of this theory based upon illusion & deception! They even believe that Allah saved Issa from the humiliation of the cross by giving a sinful murderer Issa’ face & voice!

This reminds me of a legendary Italian guy who put his money into the wallets of other people so that people would not be able to steal his money

Angelos N.

 

[Montalban]

Yes, of course! The uncanny thing is that Muslims are proud of this theory based upon illusion & deception! They even believe that Allah saved Issa from the humiliation of the cross by giving a sinful murderer Issa’ face & voice!

This reminds me of a legendary Italian guy who put his money into the wallets of other people so that people would not be able to steal his money

Angelos N.

Pro_universal? I presented (or more correctly re-presented) evidence he claimed not to know of and he’s gone again without addressing it.

Till next time !

 

[curious35]

From what I’ve learned about Islam, it appears to be dominated by Satan. The most “peaceful believers” among it only want to murder every man, woman, & child in Israel. 90% of them are said to want all of us dead. Will this be the century when all of our history comes to a climatic finish, and one religion fades from view?

It is said that Dearborn MI is 90% Islamic. I don’t suggest we war against Islam, but how about sharing a true gospel message with non-Christians HERE? Dearborn, Utah, Beverly Hills, Manhattan - if we really Christianize our nation, then as our economic system keeps drawing them here, we will affect their non-Christian cultures faster.

From a Baptist

 

[cestusdei]

We can do so here. But if we try over in their countries we risk our lives. Freedom of religion does not exist in one single muslim country.