Human souls MUST be immortal?

[meltzerboy2]

I don’t think these verses necessarily prove that the soul is not immortal. Death might mean in the spiritual sense; in other words, the wicked go to hell rather than heaven, and their soul is tormented for eternity. There is a spiritual destruction of the soul. Despite this, I have heard more than one rabbi remark that the soul of the truly wicked may be annihilated if G-d so desires. This is not in keeping with Catholic theology, however. Judaism permits more latitude with regard to what happens to our souls after this earthly life.

 

[SetInMotion]

I don’t think these verses necessarily prove that the soul is not immortal. …

I will here reply with what I privately sent to Gorgias about his reply, in regards the catechism:

"Is it possible that the Catechism is in error at that point, or do you think the catechism without error in all that it teaches?

For instance:

Justin Martyr, replying to Trypho, say s:

"… [Trypho] "‘And do all the souls of all living beings comprehend Him?’ he asked; ‘or are the souls of men of one kind and the souls of horses and of asses of another kind?’

[Justin] "‘No; but the souls which are in all are similar,’ I answered. …

… [Trypho] "‘They [souls] are not, then, immortal?’

[Justin] “‘No; since the world has appeared to us to be begotten.’ …”

Athanasius the Great - On the Incarnation of the Word, Chapter 4

“… For transgression of the commandment was turning them back to their natural state, so that just as they have had their being out of nothing, so also, as might be expected, they might look for corruption into nothing in the course of time. 5. For if, out of a former normal state of non-existence, they were called into being by the Presence and loving-kindness of the Word, it followed naturally that when men were bereft of the knowledge of God and were turned back to what was not (for what is evil is not, but what is good is), they should, since they derive their being from God who IS, be everlastingly bereft even of being; in other words, that they should be disintegrated and abide in death and corruption . …”

Ignasius - The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians

“… Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be . …”

Also, in general

"… The second, and next most important, thing I learned is that, during the period under study, Conditionalism, and not (as it is today) Naturalism [immortality], was the more prevalent view of the writing Fathers of the Church. This fact can be demonstrated by a simple enumeration, as follows:

Conditionalists: 14 definite, 4 probable – total 18
Naturalists: 8 definite, 2 probable – total 10

So Conditionalism was favored over Naturalism by almost a 2 to 1 majority of the 28 Fathers I was able to classify.

Another question worth asking is: Was this a regional conflict? Were the Fathers in one geographical area more inclined to Conditionalism, and the Fathers in another more inclined to Naturalism? The following chart will illustrate the surprising answer to this question:

Region Conditionalists Naturalists
Asia 8 or 9 1
Europe 6 2
Africa 2 or 3 6
(Unknown) 1 1 …" - bryangrayministries.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Immortality-in-the-Early-Church.doc

I am not affiliated with linked material, only use it as a resource tool.

Perhaps there is more for you to study?"

 

[SetInMotion]

"Is it possible that the Catechism is in error at that point, or do you think the catechism without error in all that it teaches?

Perhaps the word “error” is too strong a word, and a better phrase or question would be, “Is it possible that the catechism is not fully representative of all the information there is on the subject at hand?”

 

[roseproject]

Back up, buddy.

You ARE correct about that. What I meant was that there is a general craving in the mind, or body, or soul that corresponds to what the craving was made for.

If someone wants a pet unicorn doesn’t mean unicorns exist. BUT our capacity to think up magical creatures and think up realities that have no meaning from a survival standpoint must correspond to a greater craving that the soul was made for.

Again, teleporting spaceships don’t exist… but we will be able to defy physics in heaven…move with the speed of thought…

Unfortunately, I couldn’t remember every detail of the argument, and I admit that the way I worded it butchered it a bit hehe

 

[SetInMotion]

to defy physics in heaven…move with the speed of thought…

I disagree with this. To “defy physics” is to break the laws of God in the physical universe, which would be sin, a transgression of law.

As for the speed of thought concept, I do not see that anywhere in scripture, neither historical commentary. It is a modern invention of imagination. Angels have wings. They take time to travel from place to place as seen through the holy scriptures. Angels are fast, yes, faster than human beings, yes, but instantaneously flitting about? I have seen no evidence of it, unless you have something evidential in mind?

 

[roseproject]

Well, physics as we presently know them, at least, since in Heaven (the new heaven and new earth, that is) our bodies won’t be subject to the limitations of gravity, aging, fatigue, etc. The old order will pass away. There is a passage about it in the catechism (on the section about the Resurrection of the body, I believe) where they site scripture and church fathers. Anywhoo, wouldn’t want to go on an unrelated tangent…

 

[englands123]

Sorry but you are wrong.

Search your feelings and you will know Souls are very much immortal.

 

[po18guy]

“The image and likeness” of an eternal God cannot simply be snuffed out.

 

[roseproject]

Our bodies are just a shell (dust) but even so we must respect our body as the Lord blessed us with this gift on earth.

This would be more in line with eastern mysticism in regards to the body and certainly NOT in line with the Catholic view of the body. The human person is a composite of spiritual soul and body. The soul is often referred to as the “form of the body”.

In fact, when we die and are separated from our bodies, we are in an unnatural “split in two” state until we are joined back with our bodies in the final resurrection. God the Son took on flesh, and is still in the flesh in Heaven. If He is not in the flesh, than the Resurrection of His body was pointless. He paved the way for the rest of us, including in this regard

 

[roseproject]

Bingo!

And we were made to be loved by Him and to return His love in the life of the Trinity!

 

[roseproject]

This was the actual argument without my butchering it from earlier (it’s C.S Lewis) @TechieGuy @SetInMotion @FredBloggs @MiserereMeiDei @snarflemike

The Weight of Glory: C. S. Lewis's Remarkable (and Surprising) Sermon

Many have read famous quotes from this profound sermon. But it's worth reading the entire thing, as we'll be in for some surprises when we do (like Lewis focusing more time on the glory we receive from God than the glory we give God). Here's my attempt to summarize the entire argument, section...

www.thegospelcoalition.org

 

[englands123]

With respect my friend you do know there is Body , Soul and Spirit.

All three are defined as different and not the same. any teaching that the Soul is not Immortal is wrong.

Hebrews 4:12 is very clear on the matter.

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

The human spirit : 1 Corinthians 2:11

11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Body is -
flesh to return to Dust

Human Spirit is -
“Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being” ([Genesis 2:7] It is the human spirit that gives us a consciousness of self and other remarkable, though limited, “God-like” qualities. The human spirit includes our intellect, emotions, fears, passions, and creativity. It is this spirit that provides us the unique ability to comprehend and understand ([Job 32:8].

The Soul is -
It has been said that there are only two things that last: the Word of God ([Mark 13:31] and the souls of men. This is because, like God’s Word, the soul is an imperishable thing. That thought should be both sobering and awe-inspiring. Every person you meet is an eternal soul. Every human being who has ever lived is a soul, and all of those souls are still in existence somewhere. The question is, where?

I think you are confusing the Living Spirit with the Eternal Soul they are not the same. Unlike human beings having a spirit, human beings are souls.

To make things a little clearer I’d even say from my own opinion-
We are all human beings , we all have a Spirit in us that gives us life ,we all have a soul that belongs to God.

Some beings have the Spirit of evil in them just as some have Spirit of good.

The Soul that belongs to God will be judged by Jesus after death for eternity.

 

[FredBloggs]

I know what he’s saying, Fred. But you can’t even want those things because you aren’t saying you want a thing. They aren’t even ideas. You can want things that could conceivably exist, even if only in the imagination, but don’t, like his former post.

But the point remains: really really wanting something is not a valid reason to believe that it must exist.

 

[FredBloggs]

This was the actual argument without my butchering it from earlier (it’s C.S Lewis)

It doesn’t make any more sense in the original form.

“Likewise, our desire for Paradise does not prove we will enjoy it. But it’s a good indication that such a thing exists and that some will enjoy it.”

Erm, no it’s not. It’s a massive non-sequitur.

 

[FredBloggs]

Here’s 7 proofs for the immortality of the soul Seven Proofs for the Natural Immortality of the Human Soul | Catholic Answers

Well, it’s seven conjectures at least. They’re a long way from being proof. They are proof that philosophy and theology don’t, and can’t, actually prove anything at all; but they can pander to wishful thinking.

An actual proof has no need of bare assertion or non-sequitur, one or both of which is what underpins every single one of the seven “proofs” in that article.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Here’s 7 proofs for the immortality of the soul Seven Proofs for the Natural Immortality of the Human Soul | Catholic Answers

Well, it’s seven conjectures at least. They’re a long way from being proof. They are proof that philosophy and theology don’t, and can’t, actually prove anything at all; but they can pander to wishful thinking.

can’t prove? pander to wishful thinking?

Josephus was not a Christian. He was a Jewish historian in the 1st century.

Bk XVIII, ch 3, sect 3 (footnotes are operational) 3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross,(9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. From Josephus “War of the Jews” The Works of Flavius Josephus

AND from Paul the apostle

1 Cor 15:
if Christ is preached as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised;[a] 14 if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. 17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied."

Paul is obviously taking the argument to its basics.

Jesus died in the flesh but not in Spirit (soul)

FredBloggs:

An actual proof has no need of bare assertion or non-sequitur, one or both of which is what underpins every single one of the seven “proofs” in that article.

You identify yourself with only an emoji and no further description. Any comment on who you are?

 

[EndTimes]

OK . Human Souls are Immortal.

However we really must move beyond mere basics

• which are even believed by for instance Satan; Yes?

It’s not the belief per se which is Important -

It’s How we respond to … act - wrt Obeying God’s Command which is! Yes?

_

 

[steve-b]

OK . Human Souls are Immortal.

However we really must move beyond mere basics

• which are even believed by for instance Satan; Yes?

It’s not the belief per se which is Important -

It’s How we respond to … act - wrt Obeying God’s Command which is! Yes?

Yep!!! ​

I would just add, one obeys EVERY THING He commanded. Not just take bits of it, ergo disobeying or ignoring all the rest .

 

[FredBloggs]

Josephus was not a Christian. He was a Jewish historian in the 1st century.

Bk XVIII, ch 3, sect 3 (footnotes are operational) 3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross ,(9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. From Josephus “War of the Jews” http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/

I don’t dispute that Jesus existed. I have no reason to think he didn’t. Equally, I have no reason to think he was divine. The bible tells a lot of things that are provably untrue; it is self-contradictory and the events it purports to relate occurred oftentimes centuries before they were written down. The notion that the facts of these events, told and re-told, were not embellished or altered in any way is, frankly, ludicrous.

I’m not sure what you’re attempting to convey when you quote Corinthians.

You identify yourself with only an emoji and no further description. Any comment on who you are?

What would you like to know?

 

[steve-b]

FredBloggs:

I don’t dispute that Jesus existed. I have no reason to think he didn’t. Equally, I have no reason to think he was divine. The bible tells a lot of things that are provably untrue; it is self-contradictory and the events it purports to relate occurred oftentimes centuries before they were written down. The notion that the facts of these events, told and re-told, were not embellished or altered in any way is, frankly, ludicrous.

I’m not sure what you’re attempting to convey when you quote Corinthians.

Taking this in steps,

the purpose of both quotes I used (Josephus and Corinthians) was to show the immortality of the soul.

The topic of the thread

You identify yourself with only an emoji and no further description. Any comment on who you are?

FredBoggs:

What would you like to know?

Faith…Yes / NO ?

Does your Belief system have a name?