Humanae Vitae Debate Part III

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Sorry. I had forgotten to come back to this and now it’s a bit late for me… I have thought about it. He is right, again, to a degree. However he falsely disconnects the ties that contraception has with the sexual revolution and the promiscuity that resulted. So maybe tomorrow. Or later today. 😊
Why has the sexual revolution hit Catholic women to a greater degree than woman in society at large? Why do Catholic women abort and use contraception at a greater rate than do other women in society?
 
Why has the sexual revolution hit Catholic women to a greater degree than woman in society at large? Why do Catholic women abort and use contraception at a greater rate than do other women in society?
Ah, did I say that? Did anyone say that? :confused:
 
The figure that I have seen recently is that in the USA 70% of all Catholic women of child bearing age (married or not) use some form of contraception which compares with 64% of all women of childbearing age who use contgraception. This statistic would then imply that Catholic women are using artificial contraception at a rate higher than women in general.
The question is always about the source and who is Catholic. There was a nice peice written (but I forgot where :doh2: ) about the fact that many people just like being “Catholic.” They don’t practice the faith much, but when asked, tell folks they are “Catholic.” This was an article specifically concerning birth control.

I’m not sure that having a better number than “95%” actually will improve the logical argument against the antagonist, but it might bring into reality the impact society has on faith vs. teaching.

So do you have a source for your stat?
 
It is not a consequentialist argument. The Church holds that contraception is sinful not because of it’s consequences, but because each and every act is intrinsically disordered, evil. It is the bad seed from which nothing but bad fruit can come.

Your opponent holds that the rise in infidelity and divorce, the lowering of moral standards, abortion, and the objectification of women are attributes of the sexual revolution and coincidentally occured around the same time HV was given to the Church. Fine. It’s rediculous and silly.

The Church has, and will continue to teach that contraception is always (for every reason and in every circumstance) wrong and a sin. The consequences are not the determining factor of whether someting is sinful. The ends never justifies, or condemns, the means.

God bless,

Red Beard
 
The point is moot. Your opponent refuses to understand the purpose of human sexuality. He refuses to understand that contracption is intrinsically evil, that the Church’s teaching on faith and morals are the truth, and that the consequnces were forseen but are not essential to the truth of the teaching.

God Bless,

Red Beard
 
So do you have a source for your stat?
Yes. Please see Catholic Medical Weekly: Friday, March 16, 2007:
“In 1995, 70% of all U.S. Catholic women of childbearing age used some form of contraception. Since 64% of all women, regardless of faith, use contraception, the proportion of Catholic women who contracept is actually slightly higher than women at large.”
And please see:
Data from the National Center for Health Statistics, published in Fehring, R. and Schlidt, A.M. “Trends in Contraceptive Use Among Catholics in the United States: 1988-1995” The Linacre Quarterly - Journal of the Catholic Medical Association Vol.68 No. 2, May 2001. Pp. 170-185.
 
Yes. Please see Catholic Medical Weekly: Friday, March 16, 2007:
“In 1995, 70% of all U.S. Catholic women of childbearing age used some form of contraception. Since 64% of all women, regardless of faith, use contraception, the proportion of Catholic women who contracept is actually slightly higher than women at large.”
And please see:
Data from the National Center for Health Statistics, published in Fehring, R. and Schlidt, A.M. “Trends in Contraceptive Use Among Catholics in the United States: 1988-1995” The Linacre Quarterly - Journal of the Catholic Medical Association Vol.68 No. 2, May 2001. Pp. 170-185.
Thanks!👍
 
The point is moot. Your opponent refuses to understand the purpose of human sexuality. He refuses to understand that contracption is intrinsically evil, that the Church’s teaching on faith and morals are the truth, and that the consequnces were forseen but are not essential to the truth of the teaching.

God Bless,

Red Beard
Red Beard is right. Lack of understanding of the “nature” of the act. It serves two purposes simultaneously.

You know this guy is going to lead you around by the nose if you can’t get him to back up and look at the bigger picture. Any way to do that?
Round and round we go…:hypno:
 
Well here we go again,:hypno: here’s latest exchange with me and the aformentioned protagonist, his words are a follows:
“So if you want to consider the fact that 95% of married Catholics who use birth control reject HV’s edicts whereas a minority of celibate clergy support it a poll or a democratic vote, you must at least admit that the preponderence of those with experience and knowledge and who must live with the consequences reject HV, whereas the clergy who support it have no such direct experience or knowledge and in fact have a different ax to grind - authority.”

I respond: Truth and God’s will-for God is truth-is not determined by opinion polls. Whether the overwhelming majority of people support or oppose something is not a measurement of the truthfulness of what these people hold, and its certainly doesn’t mean they are necessarily right in that regard. That is why your argument is not valid and irrelevent. Thus it can only be a fallacy in argumentation.

He states:“Between a minority of celibate clergy and 95% of married Catholics who use birth control, there is a disagreement as to just what is God’s will w.r.t. conjugal morality. We know from the human fertility cycle, as you have agreed, that God did not will that the two ends of conjugal intercourse be inseparably connected, so HV12’s “inseparable connection”, the basis for its “open” edict, is false. Married couples know this from direct knowledge and experience of the conjugal life, ie., they know the natural law through the experience, conaturality and inclinations of married life”<<
**I counter, The Appeal to Common Practice is a fallacy with the following structure:

X is a common action.

Therefore X is correct/moral/justified/reasonable, etc.

The basic idea behind the fallacy is that the fact that most people do X is used as “evidence” to support the action or practice. It is a fallacy because the mere fact that most people do something does not make it correct, moral, justified, or reasonable**.

He replies: “Its still irrelevant because the point is not that a preponderance of a homogeneous population hold position X about subject S, while a small minority hold position Y. Rather it is that the preponderance of a population with direct knowledge and experience of subject S hold position X whereas, a small minority with no direct knowledge and experience of subject S hold position Y. The point is the direct knowledge and experience of conjugal life that the 95% bring to the subject of conjugal morality, and the ignorance of the small minority that holds an opposing viewpoint. Further, the position of the 95% is independently supported by Gods will as expressed through His creation of humans, whereas the position of the small minority conflicts with Gods will so discerned.”

**Me: An appeal to fair play, which might seem to be an appeal to common practice, need not be a fallacy. For example, a woman working in an office might say “the men who do the same job as me get paid more than I do, so it would be right for me to get paid the same as them.” This would not be a fallacy as long as there was no relevant difference between her and the men (in terms of ability, experience, hours worked, etc.). More formally:
  1. It is common practice to treat people of type Y in manner X and to treat people of type Z in a different manner.
  2. There is no relevant difference between people of type Y and type Z. <<**
    He replies: “As explained above, this is why your argument is false. There is a significant, definitive difference between married Catholics and celibate priests w.r.t. to understanding Gods will w.r.t. conjugal life. And I have explained the relevant difference above which not even someone as stupid and dishonest as yourself can deny. So I am justified in treating married Catholics and celibate clergy differently.”
I know there are a few flaws and holes in his argumentaton so I’m asking specificlly what are they and what would be the rebuttal to them.🤷
 
Personal, or direct, knowledge is irrelavant. What is the make, model, year, and condition of your mechanic’s car? What are your physician’s cholesterol levels? Why are men even allowed to be OB/GYNs?

Take it one step farther: Are murderers the only ones who can judge the morality of murder because they have the experiencial knowledge?

This is blatently rubish.

God Bless!
 
**Here’s the in my debate with my protagonist on this issue: *The morality of murder is objectively knowable, both from the perspective of the observer and the victims. The knowledge of those things that are objectively knowable, like murder, rape, lying, etc., may not depend on immediate direct experience. In the case of ABC, the question is: On what basis does one judge it to be moral or immoral? My position is that those acts that are in conformance with God’s will are moral and those that conflict with God’s will are immoral. That leaves the discernment of just what is in accord with God’s will w.r.t. conjugal intercourse and what conflicts with it . In conjugal intercourse, couples learn from their direct experience and knowledge of conjugal life the two separate roles God that intended for conjugal intercourse to play in marriage. Married Catholics through their (subjective) direct experience and knowledge of conjugal intercourse properly discerned God’s (objectively knowable) will as to the separate ends of conjugal intercourse.
***I replied: And the morality of ABC is not objectionally knowable? ***
He replies,The morality of ABC is subjectively known to most married Catholics through their direct experience of the conjugal life, and objectively knowable to those who are honest enough to recognize God’s will as expressed through His creation of humans. Or to put it another way, honest enough to re-read the language of the body, spoken by the Creator through His creation of humans, in truth
***Obviously something doesn’t seem to jive right with his position so what would be the best rebuttal to this? ****
 
Here’s the in my debate with my protagonist on this issue: The morality of murder is objectively knowable, both from the perspective of the observer and the victims. The knowledge of those things that are objectively knowable, like murder, rape, lying, etc., may not depend on immediate direct experience. In the case of ABC, the question is: On what basis does one judge it to be moral or immoral? My position is that those acts that are in conformance with God’s will are moral and those that conflict with God’s will are immoral. That leaves the discernment of just what is in accord with God’s will w.r.t. conjugal intercourse and what conflicts with it . In conjugal intercourse, couples learn from their direct experience and knowledge of conjugal life the two separate roles God that intended for conjugal intercourse to play in marriage. Married Catholics through their (subjective) direct experience and knowledge of conjugal intercourse properly discerned God’s (objectively knowable) will as to the separate ends of conjugal intercourse.

God made us to know, love, and serve Him in this life, so we can be happy with Him in the next. That is His will, the highest good. However, He gave us free will, to choose to accept His highest good for us or to choose some lower good. He decides what the highest good is; He does not leave us to decide what is good and what is not.

God is a God of justice and love. All creation, all morality, relies on these two. Murder is immoral not because a person dies, but because an innocent person dies. It is just for a person to die for an approprately serious offense. Life is a good that is being taken. Lying is immoral because it withholds the truth from someone who has a good reason to have it. But, not everyone has a good reason to have it. Truth is a good that is being denied. Rape is immoral not becase sex is bad, but because the free will of another is taken away. Free will is a good
taken away. All of these rely on justice. A person has been given by God a claim (but not an absolute claim) to the goods of life, truth, free will, etc. He created and bestowed the goods of life, truth, free will, etc. and bestowed reason and faith for knowledge of them; man did not stumble across, and then grant these goods through their own laws.

God did not design man, woman, and sex with two ends and say,“It’s a coin toss. Sometimes sex will be result in union, and sometime it will result in procreation (which is different from conception, as you well know).” Nor did He say say, “The default wil be fun without a baby and they can do whatever they want to try and keep it that way; and every now and then, regardless of what they do, I’ll step in and make a baby. They just have to deal with it, because it’s My will after all. And, if they don’t like it they are immoral.” Both assume God does not know or care what sex is for. Neither of these respect our free will; they are not just or loving.

God, in His love, gave us claims to certain goods, and through His justice He respects our use of them. He still knows what their higest use is, and wills it.

Therefore, the good of sex is designed, ordered, and objectively known and pleasureable. It is the free, full, faithful, and fruitful gift of one complete (physical and spiritual) person to another.
Free - God designed that we can see the good of sex and choose it.
Full - that it is every part of ourself (mind, heart, soul, body, fertility, past, present, future, eternity).
Faithful - that it is for that one other person for the whole of your life; for spiritual and physical aid in getting yourself, the other, and those you help make to their ultimate end.
Fruitful - that babies are only made one way, through the good of sex, you accept that you may be entrusted with the gift of children, or not, and that your relationship will give spiritual life.

The good of sex it the total gift of self. We are both body and soul. We cannot give our soul to our spouse for the sake of “union” without giving all of our body, as well. This is the language of the body. We cannot give the pleasureable part of our body without giving the generative, because that is not total. Using the good of sex for anything less is immoral. Contraception is not immoral because it is pleasureable. It is immoral because, it takes the good of sex, the total gift of self, and dismantles it to extract lesser goods.

Morality is not subjective and is not determined “through their direct experience of the conjugal life.” A couple that thinks they know what is the highest good for themselves by ignoring the specific purpose of a God given good, is not discerning or doing God’s will for them.

For both your and your opponent’s further reading try Holy Sex! by Gregory Popcak, PH.D.
~ God bless!
**I replied: And the morality of ABC is not objectionally knowable? ***
He replies,The morality of ABC is subjectively known to most married Catholics through their direct experience of the conjugal life, and objectively knowable to those who are honest enough to recognize God’s will as expressed through His creation of humans. Or to put it another way, honest enough to re-read the language of the body, spoken by the Creator through His creation of humans, in truth
***Obviously something doesn’t seem to jive right with his position so what would be the best rebuttal to this? **
 
Your opponant is abusing the english language. It is irrational to say, an objective truth can only be known subjectively. It is one or the other. This guy is using big words he doesn’t understand to sound impressive when the basic reasoning is false.

God bless!

P.S. you can private message this guy’s e-mail address and I can take this up with him.
 
It seems to me that God’s directive to His People which has never been countermanded is “Be fruitful and multiply”. Man has developed a notion that we are headed for disaster unless we limit family size. I don’t believe that there has been any revelation that has ever said that we should limit family size. But you are allowed to abstain from sex if mutually agreed upon within a marriage. Contraception says the married couple is not willing to abstain and, is not open to God’s Will if conception is His Will. in fertile and infertile periods, … period. Thus, it is intrinsically evil. NFP does not countermand God’s Will because it is open to children.

It seems to me that all the fancy language, unitive and procreative aspects, makes a simple concept difficult. Maybe I have it wrong and, maybe I’ll never get it. But this is my story and I’m sticking with it.
 
Your opponant is abusing the english language. It is irrational to say, an objective truth can only be known subjectively. It is one or the other. This guy is using big words he doesn’t understand to sound impressive when the basic reasoning is false.

God bless!

P.S. you can private message this guy’s e-mail address and I can take this up with him.
Well here’s his reply to such:
What I have said that narried couples can subjectively know God’s will w.r.t. the purposes of conjugal intercourse through their direct experience and knowledge of conjugal intimacy. Celibate clergy can discern that reality indirectly by learning from the experience and knowledge of married couples, or they can discern that reality directly and objectively from God’s creation of humans. But, in either case, the subjective knowledge discerned by married couples and the objective knowledge based on God’s will expressed through His creation of humans must be and is congruent - the use of ABC can be morally congruent with God’s will constitutive of marriage.
One can know truth and reality subjectively or objectively. For instance, the truths of natural law, according to St. Thomas and Jaques Maritain, are know by individuals subjectively.
**?? It looks to me like some clever dancing around and double-talk, am I right? What specifically is faulty about his so-called reasoning? 🤷 P.S. He goes by the name Sub and he is at the AOL mesage boards under the Catholicism folder and more specifically Controversal Topics. **
 
  • the use of ABC can be morally congruent with God’s will constitutive of marriage.]
I believe that this is contrary to Catholic teaching. And add to that the abortifacient nature of the artificial birth control pill in many cases, and you have something which is graveley wrong. The problem that I see is that Catholic women are contracepting and aborting at rates similar to those in society at large? The answer of many people here is to get the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade. I don;t see that as a realistic answer to this moral problem at this point in time.
 
What is the best estimate of Catholic Couples worldwide who practice Artificial Birth Control(ABC) and those who practice Natural Family Planning (NFP)? Any data, statistics or links for an approximate figure?
 
B]Here’s the latest installment of my debate with my protagonsist on the issue of HV and Caontraception:

Him(Protagonist): it is the intention of the NFP practitioners that their practice 100% exclude procreation. The fact that NFP is not 100% effective is irrelevant. <<

Me (BruceK) >> Since you made the claim back it up: show a direct quotation from such a practitioner that NFP is 100% effective in excluding procreation. <<

Him: This is a good example as to just how stupid and dishonest ou are. I did not claim that any practitioner held that NFP is 100% effective in excluding procreation. I said that it is the intention of the NFP practitioners that their practice 100% exclude procreation. Do you realy believe that couples practice NFP intending to conceive 1 out of every 50 acts of conjugal intercourse? A third grader can understand that if NFP did not exclude procreation from conjugal intercourse, it could not prevent (births (procreation). <<

Me >> It can never 100% exclude procreation, agreed. <<

Him: Your answer is totally irrelevant to the fact that a third grader can understand that if NFP did not exclude procreation from conjugal intercourse, it could not prevent (births (procreation). HV24 calls on medical science to make it 100% effective. If it becomes 100% effective, is it then immoral? JP II in L&R states unambigiously that NFP excludes procreation. End of story.

Me: HV24:Men of Science- does not call on medical science to make NFP 100% effective. What it actually says is, “It is supremely desirable, and this was also the mind of Pius XII, that medical science should by study of natural rhythms succeed in deteriming a sufficiently secure as well as a moral basis for the regulation of birth.” That’s not exactly the same thing as sayin 100% effective in excluding procreation and you know it! <<

Him: Logically, it is the same thing. If HV24 did not mean 100%, then what was their limit? 98%? 99%? 99.999%? Whatever their limit, many forms of ABC fall within that limit. If, NFP becomes 100% effective, will the Magisterium condemn it because it is 100% effective in separating the ends of conjugal intercourse?

Me: t’s not logically the same thing and it’s a moot point because it never will be 100% effective in separating the two ends. <<

Him: You can’t credibly assert that natural family planning will never be 100% effective. There is in fact one method that claims to be 100% effective - rigorously practiced. And my point is not a moot point even if NFP could never be 100% effective. You have to dodge the issue and claim it is a moot point because it reduces your arguments w.r.t. conjugal morality to an absurdity - reductio ad absurdem.
But, even if NFP is only 98% effective, your posts still condemn it because the purpose and intent of NFP is to “slam the door on life (procreation)” and to allow couples to enjoy the good of sex for purposes other than procreation. It does so 98% of the time.

Now, if you want to argue that your posts do not condemn NFP because it fails and does not “slam the door on life (procreation)” 2% of the time, then since ABC fails to "slam the door on life (procreation) 3% of the time it is likewise not condemned by your posts.

What specifically is faultly about his reasoning in his arguments and what exactly is the best rebuttal to his arguments? Any feedback will greatly be appreciated.
 
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