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edwest211
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I never denied that, I was looking for names and locations. Since these groups allegedly work in secret, they can be classed as infiltrators. The far Left has done more damage and don’t like the Church.
Humanae vitae dissent - is it heresy?
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Emeraldlady
New member
Marcel Lefebvre in France. Francis Schuckardt and Clarence Kelly in the US. Ottaviano in Italy. The whole shebang who rejected St Paul VI’s Roman Missal and withdrew themselves from any contribution to the roll out of the new form of the Mass. Now their ‘descendents’ are carrying on about how the liberals wrecked the Mass and the Church, when in fact, they were actually trying at least to think with the Church and implement the gift of the new form.
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Dovekin
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Have you ever provided names and locations for “The far Left”? Can you name any that have done more harm than Lefebvre?
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TheLittleLady
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This is easy to say when one is healthy and comfortable in a good marriage.
Not everyone has that luxury.
There are people who will divorce their spouse if that spouse says “no” to relations for an extended time.
There are women who have survived against all odds in a pregnancy related medical emergency, like for instance an AFE, and are scared to death they will leave their child an orphan.
Good news is that none of is are granted the Forum Badge of “Heretic Pointer-outer”.
Some people were taught that using contraception is a good thing, part of being a good steward (this is what I was taught as a teen).
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TheLittleLady
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That one has been proved to be an urban myth.
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edwest211
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I have found no evidence that most liberals did anything good. I saw mass attendance plummet in real time.
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edwest211
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OK. This whole Lefebvre thing again. A kind of obsession for some here. Please do not misdirect my comments by bringing up something else.
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TMC
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Again, I am not an “anti-Catholic.”
So it seems you are now willing to admit that the Church’s teachings develop. Maybe we have some common ground after all. Can you give an example of what you consider a doctrinal development which is not a change?
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Dovekin
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You asked for names, and you object when they are given?
All I am asking is if you have names for “the far Left” that you accuse of infiltrating and doing “more damage.”
Emeraldlady
New member
There are a couple more posts after that one in which we discussed the situation.
Emeraldlady
New member
Do you mean religious freedom and ecumenism? That sort of thing? Otherwise what are you referring to.
Thanks you for your understanding, and long answer.
So, it can be hersey, but you are not sure, maybe incredulity or voluntary doubt
Yet, I have read in a catholic dictionnary, that encyclical, particularly such as the one you quoted are not infaillable. So can we said that every word in them is not, but the main idea, as consistant with the permament teaching of the Church, maybe?
So, it can be hersey, but you are not sure, maybe incredulity or voluntary doubt
Yet, I have read in a catholic dictionnary, that encyclical, particularly such as the one you quoted are not infaillable. So can we said that every word in them is not, but the main idea, as consistant with the permament teaching of the Church, maybe?
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ArielRussu
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Yes Thistle, please give us an example of what you consider a doctrinal “development” that is not, in actuality, a change in doctrine.thistle:
Again, I am not an “anti-Catholic.”
So it seems you are now willing to admit that the Church’s teachings develop. Maybe we have some common ground after all. Can you give an example of what you consider a doctrinal development which is not a change?
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thistle
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The doctrine of NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. The Church developed its explanation of what that actually means.
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AlNg
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Is the Nicene Creed an infallible teaching of the Catholic church?
Are the teachings of the Council of Florence infallible?
The original Nicene Constantinople Creed which was taught for hundreds of years declares that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. Later on it was changed in Spain to read that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, and still later the change was adopted by the Western Roman Catholic church, but not the Eastern Orthodox church and not the Armenian Orthodox church.
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TMC
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I think this is a great example. The Church has maintained the core of the teaching of EENS - which is that salvation comes from God, through the Church. The Church has now clarified that salvation can come from God and through the Church, but without the person being a member of the Church during life.
Nonetheless, a Catholic from 300 years ago would entirely reject this form of the teaching of EENS, and insist it was heretical. But our understanding of the teaching has grown in such a way that the continuity between the current teaching and the past teaching is apparent to us, even though it would not have been apparent (or seemed possible) to a good Catholic from the past.
I think there are many such examples. You call it development, not change, but to me development is a form of change. As this example shows, the form and direction of change is not always predictable, and the continuity between the development and the past is not always immediately apparent - just as a Catholic from 300 years ago would not be able to understand how EENS could develop, but today we can see the continuity.
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SeraficLeo
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So let me get this straight: a bunch of men are so out of control that nuns were legitimately terrified of being raped and the response was not to remove the nuns from the danger or restore law and order or to provide extra security, but to give them some very strange sounding drugs that would interrupt their natural courses?
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thistle
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This is a myth. The nuns were NOT given permission to use any form of birth control.
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