Humans were created sinful. Then we were told not to sin. Is that a fair demand?

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Humans were created sinful. Then we were told not to sin. Is it a realistic demand given that we were designed as sinful beings to expect us not to sin?
And two can play at that game Yorkshireman, but if we really wanted to be nit-picky, this question would be null on the grounds that you can not debate about “fairness” when considering God. This is because God is considered to be omnibenevolent (i.e. all-good) and the source of morality. Therefore, God’s demand is fair by default.

If memory serves me correct, there is also scriptural evidence/quotes that God will never demand more than what we are capable of. That would therefore mean that Adam and Eve had the potential not to fall into sin, but decided anyway. It’s for that reason I now I have to go to school rather than enjoy my life in complete bliss ;).

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk
 
Ok. If the Adam and Eve story is just a metaphor how exactly did the Fall of Man happen? What happened so that man’s sinfulness isn’t due to his designer?

Did people just one day start sinning without eating any dodgy fruit? In which case it’s just the way we were designed.
The Adam and Eve story is about wilful disobedience. God did not make a mistake. When they were first created they were full of sanctifying grace, which was discarded freely through their disobedience. We don’t have to understand the details or the “how, what and why” that they disobeyed. Trusting God is enough.

And, God, in His infinite mercy sent us a Redeemer to remedy the situation. So, by the grace of God we can all be fully sanctified if we cooperate with His grace!
 
Well as God can see perfectly into the future he knew Adam and Eve were going to do that. Also for many Catholics that forbidden fruit thing is just a story.
God’s vision is eternal. There is no future for Him. Past, present, future are all in the Eternal Now.

So saying why would God not “see” into the future is irrelevant (and misinformed.)
 
Humans were created sinful. Then we were told not to sin. Is it a realistic demand given that we were designed as sinful beings to expect us not to sin?
Your supposition rests on a false premise.
Your first claim is that human are “created sinful” yet have no official teaching to back this up.
The assertion that humans will inevitably sin is not proof that we are created sinful any more than saying that humans will inevitably die means we were created dieful.
You have not demonstrated that we were “created sinful”.
The defect that you claim as a design flaw was something that was introduced after the fact of creation. The Fall of man came about as a result of the design component called “free will” which in and of itself is not sinful and therefore not a flaw. What man DID with that design component is another matter.

Finally, where does God demand that we not sin?
God has provided us with information, not demands. Do this and live - do this and die…He has provided the path back from our error… and He used His own Son to show us the way…

There is much that we cannot understand about how all of this is set up. Perhaps our “understandings” are grossly lame as compared to the realities of God’s plan.
Frankly I have found that trying to figure it out uses time and effort better used in simply trying to live a better life.

Just some thoughts - hope some of them are helpful

Peace
James
 
God’s vision is eternal. There is no future for Him. Past, present, future are all in the Eternal Now.

So saying why would God not “see” into the future is irrelevant (and misinformed.)
You’ve written gobbledegook.
 
And two can play at that game Yorkshireman, but if we really wanted to be nit-picky, this question would be null on the grounds that you can not debate about “fairness” when considering God. This is because God is considered to be omnibenevolent (i.e. all-good) and the source of morality. Therefore, God’s demand is fair by default.

If memory serves me correct, there is also scriptural evidence/quotes that God will never demand more than what we are capable of. That would therefore mean that Adam and Eve had the potential not to fall into sin, but decided anyway. It’s for that reason I now I have to go to school rather than enjoy my life in complete bliss ;).

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk
Why come on here and discuss these things if you are comforted by things that explain it all away, such as God is all-good.

I’ve had the “we have the potential not to sin” already. As I said, if all cars of a new model kept blowing up it would be withdrawn from sale. No one would buy the new car on the grounds it had the “potential” to function for a while. The model’s problems would be dismissed as a design fault.
 
I’ve had the “we have the potential not to sin” already. As I said, if all cars of a new model kept blowing up it would be withdrawn from sale. No one would buy the new car on the grounds it had the “potential” to function for a while. The model’s problems would be dismissed as a design fault.
This is a curious example indeed!

It proves the Christian’s point rather nicely: all cars* will *break down, eh? Even the best designed. It has nothing to do with a design fault, but rather the laws of entropy.
 
He[God]always thinks the best of us, even with our predisposition.*

**Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk **
Well it’s only fair that he should be so tolerant of our predispositions. He did design us after all.* 🙂
 
This is a curious example indeed!

It proves the Christian’s point rather nicely: all cars* will *break down, eh? Even the best designed. It has nothing to do with a design fault, but rather the laws of entropy.
I’m talking about a rubbishy designed model that in every case breaks down as soon as it comes out of the showroom. As I said the new model would be withdrawn from sale and the fault blamed on the designer. Not the people who drove the car! 🙂

If we sin it’s because we’re designed that way.
 
If we sin it’s because we’re designed that way.
That’s your position as a non-Catholic.

But the CC teaches that we were designed in holiness:

“But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.” CCC 404
 
OP, your querry can only be answered up to a point. Pope John Paul II deemed the very same ponderings brorught us face to face with the “mystery of evil” in the world.

still, i’ll look at a couple of aspects that are knowable with confidence: while human persons were created with original grace, meaning they were given every grace they needed to avoid sin (relationship with God, heightened intellect, intact wills) they still sinned. since then, even the baptized human person’s intellect is darkened and will is weakened. we have tendency to sin. we can know this with confidence because we can see our own and others’ tendency toward evil-doing every minute of every day.

our darkened intellect is knowable too. here you are, a guy (or gal) with perhaps above moderate intelligence questioning the “fairness” of the God of the universe. that is pretty declarative statement on the darkened intellect of man.

but let’s turn the question inside out a little: why would any God, a God who sees and knows all things, create a species, Human Person, in His own image and likeness, Person with intellect, Person with free will, Person with the abilility to either accpet or reject/ give or refuse love— why would any God create that species full well KNOWING the Human Person would despise Him? reject Him? distrust Him? hate Him? ignore Him?

why would He do that full well knowing that His solution to their ***free-will fallenness ***
would be to sacrifice Himself? and what a sacrifice it would have been! God would not only suffer the crucifixion as a Father witnessing the torture of His Son, but as the Son Himself subject to every agony available? why would ***any ***God of any universe set up all that “system failure” only to be triply ignored, quadruply hated? especially, when, as the story goes, God didn’t ***need ***Human persons to be happy? God was complete without us?

what kind of a nut is this God?

the scandal of the cross, YMan. it’s a killer. it suggests that, in the end, God gave us something breathtakingly and wildly unexpectedly better than a Fail-Free system. He gave us a Save-All system.

just now, i’m reminded of the “story” of the fall. in the garden, Satan opened the conversation with “did your God tell you not to eat of ***any ***of these trees?”

brilliant. Satan’s question was hideously brilliant. what Satan was really saying was, “that God of yours is unfair, unreasonable. He cant be trusted, can He?” he didnt even have to pursue that line of thinking. the simple infection was enough to prime Eve for sin.

the question is still being asked, isn’t it: How can that God of yours be trusted? isnt He unreasonalbe? unfair?

He experienced torture and death from the most pittiful perspectives on my account. He’s given me every grace to avoid sin. and yet I want to blame Him for unfairness? for my sin? for my failures?

YMan, apologetics carries the case of the all-good God a looooooong way. but in the end, Faith is required.

here’s me: I’m willing to be a fool for this story. i’m willing to be a fool for this God. i’ve heard the arguments for Him. they’re good arguments. i’ve heard the arguments against, Him too. many of them have merit ***especially if ***one has no use for “mystery”.

but for me, i’m willing to be a fool for Faith in Him. i’m willing because I know love. I’ve expereinced love i didnt deserve. as a result, astonishingly, ASTONISHINGLY, i’ve been able to give love— sacrificial love-- not just for my clan, but for people whom i dont like-- people who didn’t deserve it.

there’s nothing-- NOTHING— from a system failure- untrustable- semi-good God that could inspire me to do that. nothing.

in the end, i believe because i’ve seen guys just like you and gals just like me change-- like unrecognizably change-- and become recepticals and then channels of scandalous, humiliating, foolish sacrificial love.
 
even the saints knew they needed help to please God. St. Thomas is a very, very wise man and defender of the faith. He was not afraid to ask for help as we all should.

Prayer of St. Thomas Aquinas
“Grant O merciful God, that I may ardently desire, carefully examine, truly know and perfectly fulfill those things that are pleasing to You and to the praise and glory of Your holy name. Direct my life, O my God, and grant that I might know what you would have me to do and for me to fulfill it as it necessary and profitable to my soul. Grant to me, O Lord my God, that I may not be found wanting in prosperity or in adversity and that I may not be lifted up by one nor cast down by the other. May I find joy in nothing but what leads to You and sorrow in nothing but leads away from You. May I seek to please no one or fear to displease anyone save only You. Grant to me O Lord God a vigilant heart that no subtle speculation may ever lead me from You; a noble heart that no unworthy affection may draw me from You; an upright heart that no evil purpose may turn me from you. Give me a steadfast heart that no tribulation may shatter and a free heart that no violent affection may claim as its own. And finally, grant me O Lord my God a mind to know you, diligence to seek you, wisdom to find you. Give me a way of life pleasing to You; perseverance to trust and await You in confidence that I shall embrace You at the last. Amen”
 
The example of the defective car is not an analogy that can be properly applied to this situation. God is perfect, a car designer is not. God didn’t create us with a design flaw. He planned us to perfection. Doesn’t the bible tell us he knows the amount of hairs we have on our head.

I think of the car scenario this way. I imagine the perfect car that has all the bells and whistle. Every part of the car has a function and purpose. The driver is the essential component of the car. Without the driver the car can’t function. You could even look at them as body and soul. The driver is given free will. The driver holds the fate of the car in his hands. In order for the car to move it needs a power source – gas/electricity. Now, If the driver chooses not to fill the tank, the car will not run. If he chooses to ignore the flashing - check engine sign- the car will stop. If he chooses to never check and/or change the oil in the car, the motor will get damaged. If he decides never to wash the windows of his car, he will be unable to see where he is driving. I can go on and on with examples but I think you get the picture. Now envision a car designer who loves so purely, that it is impossible for him to go against the driver’s free will even though he knows he doesn’t always makes the right decisions. Now, imagine that the car designer despite knowing that the driver has the potential to mess up decides to offers the driver an endless amount of support options to help him maintain the car instead of just scraping his beloved creation. For example, he places gas stations at every corner with free gas, sets up a 24 hr. customer service line, employs tons of mechanics that make free house calls for tune ups, repairs, washings, gives out endless supply of tires etc… The only thing for the driver to do is take him up on his offer. Despite the designer’s great love for the car and driver, he will leave it up to each driver to decide if he will use all the resources he provided and that is what makes this designer divine. He won’t force himself upon anyone

God is love. He created us out of love. As such, he gave us free will. We can choose to use our freedom to do good or to do evil. Since God knows we have the choice to sin and that the probability is that we will sin at some points in our lives, He, out of love, gives us the equipment to help us when we fall and the tools to help us avoid sin as much as possible. His love is so great that I can be the greatest sinner the world has ever known and still get into heaven if I accept his graces and truly repent. His gift of mercy is nothing to sneeze at. The sacrament of reconciliation not only erases our sin but provides additional graces to avoid the near occasion of sin. We also have the Blessed Virgin Mary who is our heavenly mother and our strongest advocate and mediator. We have the Eucharist- the body and blood of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the church magisterium, the sacraments, our guardian angel, the saints, the bible, sacred tradition, the rosary, Divine Sunday, etc, etc, ect….

We can’t blame God for our condition. We can only blame ourselves for not taking advantage of God’s graces, love and mercy.
 
There is another side to the issue, Yorkshireman. It seems you are neglecting the role of grace.

Yes, what God asks of us is impossible to accomplish by merely human power. But God does not leave us to accomplish it on our own, but gives us His own life and power by which to live and act.

Given that the same God who makes the incredible demand also gives us the power to carry it out, I think any accusation of unfairness on God’s part is neutralized.

Usagi
 
There is another side to the issue, Yorkshireman. It seems you are neglecting the role of grace.

Yes, what God asks of us is impossible to accomplish by merely human power. But God does not leave us to accomplish it on our own, but gives us His own life and power by which to live and act.

Given that the same God who makes the incredible demand also gives us the power to carry it out, I think any accusation of unfairness on God’s part is neutralized.

Usagi
God must have seen (due to his omniscience) that his favourite species and every single one of us within that species was going to sin, sin, sin. He must have been aware that telling this defective species not to sin was not going to be very successful.

If that was as far as things went it wouldn’t have been so bad but then it turns out *we are to be punished *for not functioning in a way God would like even though our failings are due to the design flaws he drew in humans.

It is human to sin. It is so because we’re designed that way.
 
God must have seen (due to his omniscience) that his favourite species and every single one of us within that species was going to sin, sin, sin. He must have been aware that telling this defective species not to sin was not going to be very successful.*

If that was as far as things went it wouldn’t have been so bad but then it turns out *we are to be punished **for not functioning in a way God would even though our failings are due to the design flaws he drew in humans.

It is human to sin. It is so because we’re designed that way.
OK - so humans created cars, knowing that a) cars inevitably guzzle gas, belch fumes and break down and b) the vast majority of cars crash at some point, and human beings die in a huge percentage of these crashes.

Why, knowing this, do humans do something so senseless and stupid as to create, and keep on making, these wasteful inconvenient deathtraps that we call cars?

Gee, it couldn’t possibly be that it’s because the advantages of having cars outweighs the disadvantages, could it? Or that we actually happen to like cars in spite of their faults and problems?

Doesn’t mean we don’t try to fix and improve them, of course, or that they aren’t to a large extent fixable and improvable.

So what’s wrong with God having the same attitude? “I like these human creatures in spite of their faults and failings, but I know they can be better than they are, so I’ll do everything I can to help and motivate them to improve.”
 
OK - so humans created cars, knowing that a) cars inevitably guzzle gas, belch fumes and break down and b) the vast majority of cars crash at some point, and human beings die in a huge percentage of these crashes.

Why, knowing this, do humans do something so senseless and stupid as to create, and keep on making, these wasteful inconvenient deathtraps that we call cars?

Gee, it couldn’t possibly be that it’s because the advantages of having cars outweighs the disadvantages, could it? Or that we actually happen to like cars in spite of their faults and problems?*

Doesn’t mean we don’t try to fix and improve them, of course, or that they aren’t to a large extent fixable and improvable.*

So what’s wrong with God having the same attitude? “I like these human creatures in spite of their faults and failings, but I know they can be better than they are, so I’ll do everything I can to help and motivate them to improve.”
It’s your analogy but in the end if a car proves useless and breaks down too much it gets scrapped. Similarly if a human doesn’t prove to be up to scratch (due to design faults) he/she burns in hell or whatever ‘nicer’ eternal punishment is vogue in the church. *
 
God must have seen (due to his omniscience) that his favourite species and every single one of us within that species was going to sin, sin, sin. He must have been aware that telling this defective species not to sin was not going to be very successful.

If that was as far as things went it wouldn’t have been so bad but then it turns out *we are to be punished *for not functioning in a way God would like even though our failings are due to the design flaws he drew in humans.

It is human to sin. It is so because we’re designed that way.
We were not designed to sin, if sinning were part of our God-given nature, it wouldn’t be wrong for us to do. As humans we are called to live towards our nature, to be sinless creations of God. We are not this, but not because we were designed to be sinful, but rather because we chose to be sinful.

We were given free-will, the ability to choose right or wrong. The only way for humanity never be sinful would be to make them without free-will. But if we do not have free-will, we do not have access to other good capabilities, such as the ability to love (if love isn’t free, it isn’t love). Despite the fact that we sin, God has given humans the capability (through free-will) to repent and try again.

Now I’ll challenge your analogy of omniscience with another one. I read the Lord of the Rings, and I know what happens at the end. Now, when I go to the theatre to watch the movies, I know what happens at the end already, but not because I forced Frodo to follow along a certain path.

If humanity did not have free-will, you could argue that the game is flawed and God is puppetting us in some type of divine drama, but we, the human race, are the one’s choosing our actions.

-Prophesy
 
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