Humility and Insecurity

[nickybr38]

This explanation of pride might help you;
bible.org/seriespage/chapter-12-prides-subtle-masks

 

[Joyful_1]

Yes I know. I acknowledge that whatever goodness/merit there is in yourself, it is from God. However, the problem is what happens when somewhere along your life, you find it difficult believe in that goodness?

Now I’ve watched a few minutes of your video and in fact, I feel like I’m more of the complete opposite of the guy who needs chiseling. I mean if God were to actually cite me a list of my flaws, I’d just keep staring gloomily like this guy:

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee209/Palemies/Advent children/cloud-4.jpg

And saying: “Tell me something I don’t know…”

Would it really be advisable to preach humility, as it seems to be understood on some threads I’ve encountered as a sort of diminishing of oneself, to such low-spirited people?

And on the other hand, is it then also wrong to give them reason to believe in themselves again? Is self-confidence in of itself the pride we are called to abhor?

I think you didn’t finish watching the video.

 

[Edwin78]

Hi again Lost Wonderer

Yes I know. I acknowledge that whatever goodness/merit there is in yourself, it is from God. However, the problem is what happens when somewhere along your life, you find it difficult believe in that goodness?

Then you must love God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.

Now I’ve watched a few minutes of your video and in fact, I feel like I’m more of the complete opposite of the guy who needs chiseling. I mean if God were to actually cite me a list of my flaws, I’d just keep staring gloomily like this guy:

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee209/Palemies/Advent children/cloud-4.jpg

And saying: “Tell me something I don’t know…”

Actually, I believe you. If you are a Christian and you have been serious with your faith one time or another, then the Divine Fire has already shown you some of your imperfections. Some, but not all. And unfortunately, the more you get near to God, more of your imperfections will come out to the Light.

This process had been discussed by the late Jesuit theologian Thomas H. Green, who took his discussion from St. Teresa of Avila’s writings (I think; it has been a long time since I read it), and it has a better analogy of God’s transformation of a human to His Son than the “chiseling” video…although I cannot help but be moved by the video also.

As the two discussed, a soul starts his journey towards God by noticing who God is: the Fire of Love.



The soul, enticed by this Warmth and Light, wants to know and be with God. He therefore starts taking his spiritual life more seriously, and prays more, studies more about his faith, and tries to live as he ought.

Now the soul at the beginning is like a damp log from the forest:



But as he gets nearer the Divine Fire, choking smoke comes out of him, and finds himself getting blackened, and all the rottenness and imperfections come out of him like the insects and vermin coming out of a log in a fire:



As Fr. Thomas noted, this is a dangerous time for a soul, as he is forever affected by what the Light has shown him to be: imperfect. All kinds of temptations will assail him, the Enemy will attack him with all his fury for daring to leave Satan’s ranks, and (the cunning Enemy he is) Satan will use those imperfections coming out of the soul against him. This is the main reason why Christians (especially Catholics) leave their faith: they cannot take what the Light has shown them about themselves, and they carry that knowledge the rest of their lives if they do not go back. And that is sad, for it is only the continued approaching of the Lord and trust in Him that will cure this.

For when the Christian soul does not run away from the Lord but endures with courage and trust the Flames of Love, then something miraculous happens. The soul catches fire with the Fire of Love:



All the impurities and rot are burned away, and what remains in the soul is Fire: the Image of Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit, the Masterpiece of the Father:



And the people around him now see him, not as a damp log, but a source of Light and Warmth that cannot be hidden.

My son, if you come forward to serve the Lord, prepare yourself for temptation.
Set your heart right and be steadfast, and do not be hasty in time of calamity.
Cleave to him and do not depart, that you may be honored at the end of your life.
Accept whatever is brought upon you, and in changes that humble you be patient.
For gold is tested in the fire,and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.
Trust in him, and he will help you; make your ways straight, and hope in him.

Sirach 2:1-6

Would it really be advisable to preach humility, as it seems to be understood on some threads I’ve encountered as a sort of diminishing of oneself, to such low-spirited people?

Yes, it still is. It is good to advise to be humble in front of the Fire of Love, to endure His hot caresses of Love in trials and temptations, and to trust in the Lord that He will give them the strength to endure through prayer and fasting.

It will be good also to share with them this analogy that I have just shared.

Finally, it would be advisable for these people to have for themselves a spiritual director that will help them in their struggle to be lit with the Fire of Love.

And on the other hand, is it then also wrong to give them reason to believe in themselves again? Is self-confidence in of itself the pride we are called to abhor?

by Peter KreeftDiscernment:

God, in giving us all free will, said to us: “Your will be done.” Some of us turn back to Him and say: “My will is that your will be done.” That is obedience to the first and greatest commandment. Then, when we do that, He turns to us and says: “And now, your will be done.” And then He writes the story of our lives with the pen strokes of our own free choices.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I actually think that some of the repliers are being a tiny bit insensitive toward the OP. The OP is obviously a very sensitive person. A person who is deeply aware of his or her own imperfections is often the person who is so deeply sensitive that they feel, see, touch their own shortcomings with exquisite pain. Their failures come into view in sharp focus. (And the fact that OP was “bullied much of his life” can be a reflection of that; the most tender people are those most easily targeted.) That does not mean that they’re pathological (although that can be true, yes, in extreme cases), nor does it necessarily mean that they’re filled with pride, think they ‘know better than God,’ and a lot of other things that have been suggested to the OP.

I’m sure that the repliers are sincere in their replies; I just think that some of you might be jumping to conclusions based on theology/spirituality, rather than real-life experience with people similar to the OP. My heart goes out to him. :console: Perhaps because I relate.

When you have a combination of a very feeling person, with negative experiences (such as bullying, and/or strong parental disapproval over one’s imperfections and native personality – as if one can do much about that ), it’s very head-changing, and leads one easily to feelings of despair.

Many such people are in monasteries. Monasteries attract people who are extremely aware of their faults and their neediness. So please do not be too quick to assume “pride” as the origin of the OP’s problem or suffering.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I actually think that some of the repliers are being a tiny bit insensitive toward the OP. The OP is obviously a very sensitive person. A person who is deeply aware of his or her own imperfections is often the person who is so deeply sensitive that they feel, see, touch their own shortcomings with exquisite pain. Their failures come into view in sharp focus. (And the fact that OP was “bullied much of his life” can be a reflection of that; the most tender people are those most easily targeted.) That does not mean that they’re pathological (although that can be true, yes, in extreme cases), nor does it necessarily mean that they’re filled with pride, think they ‘know better than God,’ and a lot of other things that have been suggested to the OP.

I’m sure that the repliers are sincere in their replies; I just think that some of you might be jumping to conclusions based on theology/spirituality, rather than real-life experience with people similar to the OP. My heart goes out to him. :console: Perhaps because I relate.

Thanks, you’ve pretty much summed me and my discussions in this thread in a nutshell. So far the people here have told me the same thing others who fail to understand me have said to me: “Have faith.” “Believe in yourself.” “Trust in God.” etc.

Many people have asked me why I’m so insecure, why I look down on myself, why I can’t believe… well guess what? Its cuz I don’t have proof! It’s hard enough as it is to defend God without empirical proof even when He’s omnipotent and almighty so He’s not bound by time, our reality, even our very logic blahblahblahblah… how much more difficult to defend someone like me who is? :ehh:

 

[Bob_the_Chef]

Well, well. Don’t we have a bunch of jailhouse theologians hashing it out.

Keep the following in mind when reading what I’ve written: Insecurity is pride masquerading as weakness.

The simple fact is that you refuse to see your own goodness, which is itself a condition of pride which acts against your ability to reason. Faith here (and I mean it in the true sense, not the colloquial) has the potential to help you overcome your irrational behavior and mental aberrations when you fail to use reason properly and instead indulge in delusional rationalization.True, a supportive group of friends is a great thing, but they don’t constitute perfect, clairvoyant, privileged observers that can’t fail you, and to stubbornly cross your arms and wait for someone else’s, the herd’s, evaluation as a source of truth, as a means of receiving permission to be and feel is a move dripping with cowardice and pride. There is something sickening in asking for the approval of others. It demonstrates a detestable subservience to another that defiles human dignity. Besides, it is laziness. It a handicap that you place on yourself that prevents you from acting and being, and it shifts focus from God to yourself through self-pity. It’s the spiritually lazy, self-absorbed man that stares in the mirror, busying himself with finding excuses to impose limitations on himself. Human beings are complicated, so stop trying to find the “okay” to do something. No one is focusing on you, it doesn’t matter what “they” say (no “they” actually exists anyway). Everyone’s too busy focusing on themselves or doing what they must to care about your shoe size. Go do what you honestly feel you want to do, where God seems to inspire you to go, and feel out the situation. Abandon your bizarre metrics and just do. Put away your pride.

Now, I know you like to put on this show of empiricism and logic, as if rattling off platitudes in cold and impersonal terms can paper over the seriously flawed concepts you carry around in your head. That the voices in your head are your own habituated self-doubt (the origin can be someone’s intention to hurt you, or someone’s error, or Satan himself) – in any case, you give them too much credibility, as if you suffered from OCD. And don’t point to 10 years of bullying as if it’s some convenient excuse to be spiritually mediocre. Your purpose in life is ultimately to get yourself to heaven, and not conform to the idiocy of other men.

Now, in terms of pride, I find it quite shallow when people identify with their accomplishments, esp. in the petty ways they do. Why can’t it suffice to know good has been done? Why do you need to boast like a dog looking for his master’s approval? It’s disgusting. It defies common sense, and metaphysically, it’s nonsense because it fails to distinguish act from being and act from person. It likely implies that you rank people’s “worth” using the same criteria, which betrays further your own pride. The mindless, slavish impetus to run the rat race like a mangy rodent defiles and kills the inner life you need to live wisely and in a relationship with God. The characterization of men having to prove themselves is also a culturally disgusting phenomenon. Just because you feel that need, and know men who feel that way, as if their existence somehow depended on it, does not validate the confused nonsense of it all. It’s merely a common delusion, common in America, because by degrading the human being, the media opens the doors to social and emotional manipulation and control by motivating overcompensation. It also ruins the capacity for human relationships because, again, it puts you or another in a position of subservience, and metaphysical inferiority. How vapid. How stupid do you think women are? They want a human relationship, not some vile hobbit’s magic show. How can you not see that?

Now, I didn’t say this was easy. In fact, you might employ the voices in your head – or your own inner voice – to negate your false self-concept and replace it with something good. The truth is, you must decide who you are before you can be, before potential realizes into act. It’s not like “well, gee, I’ll try this roundabout thing here, and then I’ll take my slide rule and my measuring tape and see how I did.” You must will. As Augustine says, men are wills. There is truth to that.

In closing, remember that you have to meet God half way. If you cling to nonsense, no one will be able to pull you free. Let’s call a spade a spade and stop trying to paint what is essentially banal stubbornness into some noble struggle. I generally side against psychotherapy, since most of it is rife with clergy of the secular humanist culture, and since it generally a useless and often harmful practice with a vested commercial interest. But in your case, I might even suggest it, provided you can find an orthodox Catholic that can call your bull. However, all in all, this is a struggle I believe you should ultimately recognize is between you and God and no one else. No one can fix it for you. You’ve got to take the time to do it yourself. If you love God completely, you will give him your all, give all of yourself. If need be, read Pope Benedict’s first encyclical, Deus caritas est, where God is described as not merely Him who loves in the mode of agape, but God as He who loves us erotically. Perhaps that’ll be the way you can overcome your state of profound sin, but offering yourself to God. Forget what connotations you may have associated with the word humility. They are obviously warped and perverted beyond saving. Let go, and stop trying to live according to rationalist definitions. Know the goodness first hand. No one can do that for you. Only then does it make sense to share in the faith with others. Until then, you are not in truth communion with the Church.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Well, well. Don’t we have a bunch of jailhouse theologians hashing it out.

There is something sickening in asking for the approval of others. It demonstrates a detestable subservience to another that defiles human dignity. Besides, it is laziness. It a handicap that you place on yourself that prevents you from acting and being, and it shifts focus from God to yourself through self-pity. It’s the spiritually lazy, self-absorbed man that stares in the mirror, busying himself with finding excuses to impose limitations on himself. Human beings are complicated, so stop trying to find the “okay” to do something. No one is focusing on you, it doesn’t matter what “they” say (no “they” actually exists anyway). Everyone’s too busy focusing on themselves or doing what they must to care about your shoe size. Go do what you honestly feel you want to do, where God seems to inspire you to go, and feel out the situation. Abandon your bizarre metrics and just do. Put away your pride.

Now, I know you like to put on this show of empiricism and logic, as if rattling off platitudes in cold and impersonal terms can paper over the seriously flawed concepts you carry around in your head. That the voices in your head are your own habituated self-doubt (the origin can be someone’s intention to hurt you, or someone’s error, or Satan himself) – in any case, you give them too much credibility, as if you suffered from OCD. And don’t point to 10 years of bullying as if it’s some convenient excuse to be spiritually mediocre. Your purpose in life is ultimately to get yourself to heaven, and not conform to the idiocy of other men.

Now, in terms of pride, I find it quite shallow when people identify with their accomplishments, esp. in the petty ways they do. Why can’t it suffice to know good has been done? Why do you need to boast like a dog looking for his master’s approval? It’s disgusting. It defies common sense, and metaphysically, it’s nonsense because it fails to distinguish act from being and act from person. It likely implies that you rank people’s “worth” using the same criteria, which betrays further your own pride. The mindless, slavish impetus to run the rat race like a mangy rodent defiles and kills the inner life you need to live wisely and in a relationship with God. The characterization of men having to prove themselves is also a culturally disgusting phenomenon. Just because you feel that need, and know men who feel that way, as if their existence somehow depended on it, does not validate the confused nonsense of it all. It’s merely a common delusion, common in America, because by degrading the human being, the media opens the doors to social and emotional manipulation and control by motivating overcompensation. It also ruins the capacity for human relationships because, again, it puts you or another in a position of subservience, and metaphysical inferiority. How vapid. How stupid do you think women are? They want a human relationship, not some vile hobbit’s magic show. How can you not see that?

Now, I didn’t say this was easy. In fact, you might employ the voices in your head – or your own inner voice – to negate your false self-concept and replace it with something good. The truth is, you must decide who you are before you can be, before potential realizes into act. It’s not like “well, gee, I’ll try this roundabout thing here, and then I’ll take my slide rule and my measuring tape and see how I did.” You must will. As Augustine says, men are wills. There is truth to that.

In closing, remember that you have to meet God half way. If you cling to nonsense, no one will be able to pull you free. Let’s call a spade a spade and stop trying to paint what is essentially banal stubbornness into some noble struggle. I generally side against psychotherapy, since most of it is rife with clergy of the secular humanist culture, and since it generally a useless and often harmful practice with a vested commercial interest. But in your case, I might even suggest it, provided you can find an orthodox Catholic that can call your bull. However, all in all, this is a struggle I believe you should ultimately recognize is between you and God and no one else. No one can fix it for you. You’ve got to take the time to do it yourself. If you love God completely, you will give him your all, give all of yourself. If need be, read Pope Benedict’s first encyclical, Deus caritas est, where God is described as not merely Him who loves in the mode of agape, but God as He who loves us erotically. Perhaps that’ll be the way you can overcome your state of profound sin, but offering yourself to God. Forget what connotations you may have associated with the word humility. They are obviously warped and perverted beyond saving. Let go, and stop trying to live according to rationalist definitions. Know the goodness first hand. No one can do that for you. Only then does it make sense to share in the faith with others. Until then, you are not in truth communion with the Church.

You start out by insulting all the OP’s repliers, then follow by thoroughly discrediting every thought this person has ever had. And you resurrect an 11-month-old thread.

Who exactly are you trying to impress or persuade with your negativity?

 

[Bob_the_Chef]

I’m not trying to impress anyone. That’s your baggage. I also wasn’t attacking anyone in particular, only the amalgamation of nonsense that has accrued in this thread. I’m doing what’s charitable (which is not always about being “nice” as the lesbian nuns would have you believe) and trying to stir the pot to subvert what is ultimately a complacent mediocrity, insulting to the Excellence of God. “Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.” Anything else is again your baggage and your interpretation, something insecure people excel at (projection).

Take for example the account of love as wishing to please, highlighted by nothing less than the self-deprecating story of having the cheerleader girlfriend – a story which not only dehumanizes the cheerleader, putting her on a pedestal and bordering on idolatry, but one which ultimately legitimizes the dehumanization of the geek lusting after her. It’s no wonder Nietzsche characterized a vast number of Christians as slavish, complacent men (unfortunately for Nietzsche, he confused that false Christian ethic with true Christianity). Now, if you take the story with a grain of salt, it’s a funny tale about adolescent folly being used to illustrate a greater point. But it’s likely to do more harm than good, especially those suffering from some profound insecurity. It’ll legitimize in their minds the idea that love is about pleasing (pleasure) the other, and not wishing what is best for them, doing what’s best for them, as appropriate, and not a means of acquiring approval out of some depraved desperation. It is likely to reduce someone with insecurities further to a doormat and not an equal among equals, a human essentially, with what are accidental qualities that vary among individuals. It’s shallow to identify with qualities in this way, and such shallowness is the hallmark of pride. Humility involves knowing that we are all human being on the same metaphysical playing field, it involves knowing things in proportion.

LW was right in that being a doormat is utter nonsense. He’s right we should have some kind of “pride” but not so much in deeds as in being who we are, the children of God. LW’s mistake is to identify his worth with his deeds, thus plunging him into superficiality and pride and putting him in grave risk of Hell (alongside other errors, such as falsely assuming that everything in the mind has a real origin as it manifests in the mind). I wonder how many Catholics still believe in Hell anymore…

And I detest your insinuation that I’m discrediting every thought someone had, or that discrediting any of his thoughts expressed in this thread is something intrinsically wrong. NO. That is a failure to be charitable, to allow a fellow brother to wallow in his sin. It is sin to leave sin unchallenged as you seem to prefer given your remark.

Too often do I see the Christian message warped into a self-pitying, self-wallowing, world hating rationalization of mediocrity that makes me think I’m listening to a depressed gnostic (who were heretics, by the way). I am pained to see Christians rationalizing “less than the best” as if it is God’s will to settle, or on the other hand, a misconstruing personal best as some kind of boasting right. Both are WRONG. God calls us towards personal excellence in every dimension, material and spiritual, but ordered properly and for the glory of God. The insecurity I’ve seen in his forum is nothing short of believing in the “wisdom of this world”. It is a failure of both intellect and faith. As I once heard somewhere, God acts on our intellects, Satan acts on our imaginations. Part of being Christian is experiencing disillusionment – freedom from the deception and intoxicating slumber of the mind – recognizing the ways in which Satan acts to blind us from the truth. I refuse to give in and believe the characterizations and rationalizations given by some in this thread. It’s the easy and the wrong option. Only dead bodies float down stream.

The whole point of my rant: Insecurity is rooted in personal immorality or some kind. Knowing this will help the insecure by giving a name and a cause to their affliction, to attack the sin at the core, to negate the seething pride and sanctimoniousness that ultimately keeps it in place. There’s nothing romantic about being insecure, nothing good. Once we discredit it at the root, we can free ourselves from it’s oppression.