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TPJCatholic
Guest
mike,
They drove themselves out by refusing to obey.
They drove themselves out by refusing to obey.
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mikew262
Guest
This may be one way of looking at it, but not the only way.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
mike,
I am sure the parishioners of St. Stan’s feel they were driven out. Yet, all they had to do was to obey and they would not be “out.” No matter how much this is discussed, the bottom-line is the parish was told by Bishop Regali, then Archbishop Burke and then the Vatican. At some point they had to simply obey and they chose instead to go into schism. That is their own fault.
Adam and Eve had no clue why God told them not to eat from the tree, yet they did know they were not supposed to do it. They chose the path of disobedience and all humanity has suffered their choice. Likewise, the lay board knew that they would be excommunicated if they moved into full schism, yet they chose disobedience and in that they have placed their own souls and all those attending their now illicit services in grave risk.
I feel that their is way too much cultural pride going on in that parish. It is wonderful to see any ethnic group carry forth pride in their roots, yet human cultures cannot come before God. St. Stan’s placed their polish hertitage and their gathering of money ahead of their faith in God.
I am sure the parishioners of St. Stan’s feel they were driven out. Yet, all they had to do was to obey and they would not be “out.” No matter how much this is discussed, the bottom-line is the parish was told by Bishop Regali, then Archbishop Burke and then the Vatican. At some point they had to simply obey and they chose instead to go into schism. That is their own fault.
Adam and Eve had no clue why God told them not to eat from the tree, yet they did know they were not supposed to do it. They chose the path of disobedience and all humanity has suffered their choice. Likewise, the lay board knew that they would be excommunicated if they moved into full schism, yet they chose disobedience and in that they have placed their own souls and all those attending their now illicit services in grave risk.
I feel that their is way too much cultural pride going on in that parish. It is wonderful to see any ethnic group carry forth pride in their roots, yet human cultures cannot come before God. St. Stan’s placed their polish hertitage and their gathering of money ahead of their faith in God.
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stanley123
Guest
I agree that there is another side to this.
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stanley123
Guest
Take a look at what happened to another St. Stanislaus Kostka Roman Catholic Church (of Polish origin) and the Church of the obedient parishoners there in Shamokin, PA:
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TPJCatholic
Guest
stanley,
Is a building or money worth risking salvation for?
Is a building or money worth risking salvation for?
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Larry_Schaub
Guest
WWJD! Salvation should be everyones primary goal.How is that accomplished?The best way is to imitate JESUS as closely as possible.I think it is time for the Catholic faith to stand up for what is right.Then you are either with the church or not.We need to get back to the stricter teaching of our faith and have people follow our spirtual leaders.
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stanley123
Guest
In other words, if they hand over ten million dollars to someone who has consecrated a transsexual nun, they will not be risking their salvation? BTW,did you see what happened to the other Polish Church ? The issue is not as clear cut as you might think.
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HagiaSophia
Guest
Winding path to St. Stanislaus
By Tim Townsend
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
12/25/2005
The next morning, Bozek returned to the pulpit, this time with a different homily. “It seems so many things happen by accident, that paths cross by accident,” he said. "But that is the mystery of our faith - nothing happens without a reason."With a startling revelation, he signaled to his parishioners on Christmas morning that he had been through controversy with church authority before. And he believed it had made him stronger.
Bozek told his new parishioners the story of his struggle five years ago at a seminary in Poland with an accusation made against him - “a witch hunt” he called it. “Some people accused me of being a promiscuous homosexual,” he said. He told the rector of the seminary to provide proof, and said the rector couldn’t, but persisted in the accusations.
Bozek said he went to his Warmia Archbishop Edmund Michal Piszcz, and told him to call off the rector. He threatened to sue the archdiocese. “They have no proof,” he told Piszcz. Bozek said Piszcz agreed. Nevertheless the priest left the seminary and Poland, landing in Springfield, Mo.
“What would have happened had I not been accused?” he asked the congregation. “I probably would still be in Poland living happily near my parents. I probably never would have heard of St. Stanislaus Kostka church.”
stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/religion/story/0FBBB145B49D6022862570E30026B1E0?OpenDocument&highlight=2%2C%22bozek%22+AND+%22poland%22
By Tim Townsend
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
12/25/2005
The next morning, Bozek returned to the pulpit, this time with a different homily. “It seems so many things happen by accident, that paths cross by accident,” he said. "But that is the mystery of our faith - nothing happens without a reason."With a startling revelation, he signaled to his parishioners on Christmas morning that he had been through controversy with church authority before. And he believed it had made him stronger.
Bozek told his new parishioners the story of his struggle five years ago at a seminary in Poland with an accusation made against him - “a witch hunt” he called it. “Some people accused me of being a promiscuous homosexual,” he said. He told the rector of the seminary to provide proof, and said the rector couldn’t, but persisted in the accusations.
Bozek said he went to his Warmia Archbishop Edmund Michal Piszcz, and told him to call off the rector. He threatened to sue the archdiocese. “They have no proof,” he told Piszcz. Bozek said Piszcz agreed. Nevertheless the priest left the seminary and Poland, landing in Springfield, Mo.
“What would have happened had I not been accused?” he asked the congregation. “I probably would still be in Poland living happily near my parents. I probably never would have heard of St. Stanislaus Kostka church.”
stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/religion/story/0FBBB145B49D6022862570E30026B1E0?OpenDocument&highlight=2%2C%22bozek%22+AND+%22poland%22
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stanley123
Guest
It’s too bad that there are so many accusations and threats of lawsuits concerning Catholic clergy. For example, according to the lawsuit of Father Hoatson, “From the day the plaintiff first entered religious life in or about 1970 to the time the plaintiff entered seminary in 1994 to the present day, the plaintiff has been enveloped in a culture of pedophilia, sexual and physical sexual abuse of children or vulnerable adults, and the criminal cover-up of same by the defendants.”
michnews.com/article_12_13_05.shtml
and " The plaintiff believes he was denied promotions and retaliated against time after time because he would not participate in the homosexual relationships so rampant in the various schools, churches, brothers, priests and supervisors."
and " Due to the fact that there is far in excess of half of all priests and religious in the United States who are actively homosexual, the climate has existed that pedophiles and/or predators have been able to infiltrate ministry or religious life and have been protected, defended, supported, moved around and kept in ministry by bishops due to a reciprocal type of blackmail. Pedophiles and predators in ministry and religious life have successfully sexually abused children for decades because of or due to the fear of exposure of actively homosexual bishops, archbishops, cardinals and a massive amount of and high percentage of actively homosexuals in ministry. The plaintiff has acted to expose this hypocrisy that has and continues to endanger children and has been retaliated against because of this."
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palmas85
Guest
MrS said:
Is it true he allowed the consecration of a transexual nun? I’ve heard that story for a while now.
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palmas85
Guest
I don’t know the full story on this issue, so I cannot comment on it intelligently. However, in many cases throughout the churches history, schisms, apostasies and heresies have resulted in the excommunication of millions of people. In some cases, most notably the great schism, the real reasons turned out to basically be political power plays. Unfortunately this appears to be of the same variety, neither side wanting to back down for whatever reason. And I will restate, I don’t know enough about this issue to agree or disagree.
I will say this however, many times in the past, Bishops have been wrong, have been heretics, apostates and criminals. Cardinals, Popes and the Vatican have been wrong on different issues in the past… While true the Church is protected against Doctrinal error, this appears to be an issue of discipline, and has nothing whatsoever to do with doctrine or faith or morals…
What I do see happening here is the beginning of what could be called the American Schism. Disgruntled parishes pulling out. It has happened in other cities and states, some over doctrinal issues, others over finances etc. Will they join forces and create the Independent American Catholic Church? Who knows, it would not be the first time such things have happened, even here in the U.S. The hard thing for many people is going to be where to stand, who is right and who is wrong. Who to follow, your conscience, your teachings, your feelings or what?
I believe with my whole heart that the Holy Father needs to do something, and do something quick. He needs to stand up, take charge and get the Church back into shape. Otherwise, in the near future, I can see this thing taking off and spreading worldwide.
Of course that could be the way it is supposed to be, with the church surviving but much smaller, a remnant so to speak. Interesting times are ahead of us
COR JESU SACRATISSIMUM MISERERE NOBIS
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Amie
Guest
Wow… totally agree with the American Schism! I see it all over the place, and not just in the Catholic church… how many protestant churches are we up to now? 35-40 thousand?
In any case, regardless of whether the good Bishop is right or wrong, this is an issue of obedience. I believe he is/was trying to bring this church back into the fold BEFORE it left for any number of different reasons. They claim it’s the money, but we all know that there is a different source here too… did anyone catch the bottom of the original article?
“But some argue that St. Stanislaus’ more than century-old governing structure holds the **same authority as church law ** and the bishop lacked merit for imposing excommunication, he said.”
I don’t believe any governing structure holds the same authority as church law and the church. There was clearly already a schism in process, and the bishop was attempting to stem the tide… and probably acted too late…
God bless,
-Amy
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TPJCatholic
Guest
palmas,
I agree the Church might grow smaller, yet it will be stronger then it has been for a very long time. I agree that there have been wrongful decisions made by Bishops and Cardinals and Popes throughout history because they are human (though not nearly as many errors as you seem to think). As for people creating an “American Catholic Church,” they can do as they please, yet they place their souls at grave risk and after one generation they will no longer have valid sacraments because they will no longer have valid orders.
As for me, I will remain tied to Holy Mother Church, which is Jesus’ Church run by imperfect people, yet contains the perfect faith that Christ gave the world…anything less, is well less.
Frankly, the way many so-called American Catholics act, they are barely Catholic anyway…
I agree the Church might grow smaller, yet it will be stronger then it has been for a very long time. I agree that there have been wrongful decisions made by Bishops and Cardinals and Popes throughout history because they are human (though not nearly as many errors as you seem to think). As for people creating an “American Catholic Church,” they can do as they please, yet they place their souls at grave risk and after one generation they will no longer have valid sacraments because they will no longer have valid orders.
As for me, I will remain tied to Holy Mother Church, which is Jesus’ Church run by imperfect people, yet contains the perfect faith that Christ gave the world…anything less, is well less.
Frankly, the way many so-called American Catholics act, they are barely Catholic anyway…
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TPJCatholic
Guest
stanley,
They would not be handing over their money to Archbishop Burke, you know that. They would be handing over control to the diocese as per Canon Law. AB has already said he has no plans to close the parish or to take its money. BTW, in the scheme of things ten-million dollars is nothing and if AB wanted their money he would not have cut the parish off from the Roman Catholic community. This is a done deal unless St. Stan’s repents, which is not going to happen. AB knows full well that the parish will not repent, so his actions to excommunicate was his final closing word on this matter. St. Stan’s will keep their money, and their building, while AB and the diocese moves towards the future. Meanwhile the people of St. Stan’s have placed their own souls at grave risk…it is their choice.
Just remember that Bishop Regali, Archbishop Burke, the Vatican and Canon Law all said the same thing…not sure what it would take to make St. Stan’s obey.
They would not be handing over their money to Archbishop Burke, you know that. They would be handing over control to the diocese as per Canon Law. AB has already said he has no plans to close the parish or to take its money. BTW, in the scheme of things ten-million dollars is nothing and if AB wanted their money he would not have cut the parish off from the Roman Catholic community. This is a done deal unless St. Stan’s repents, which is not going to happen. AB knows full well that the parish will not repent, so his actions to excommunicate was his final closing word on this matter. St. Stan’s will keep their money, and their building, while AB and the diocese moves towards the future. Meanwhile the people of St. Stan’s have placed their own souls at grave risk…it is their choice.
Just remember that Bishop Regali, Archbishop Burke, the Vatican and Canon Law all said the same thing…not sure what it would take to make St. Stan’s obey.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
It is just a matter of time before the issue of St. Stan’s fades away into history. They are no longer Catholic, they are joyfully and pridefully in schism, which makes them more Protestant, then Catholic. Soon, no-one will care that their parish is not part of the diocese, soon this topic will no longer be worthy of discussion.
It is a sad reality, yet life goes on and that parish will soon mean nothing to anyone other then themselves.
It is a sad reality, yet life goes on and that parish will soon mean nothing to anyone other then themselves.
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Ham1
Guest
Sadly, St. Stan’s is now just like your run of the mill SSPX parish. We should pray for them but also remember that throughout the history of Christianity there have always been groups that brought themselves into schism.
I’m really not surprised by the attitudes of the parishioners. After all, most Catholics have convinced themselves that they don’t have to obey the Church on ALL matters, just the ones they agree with.
Very sad.
I’m really not surprised by the attitudes of the parishioners. After all, most Catholics have convinced themselves that they don’t have to obey the Church on ALL matters, just the ones they agree with.
Very sad.
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palmas85
Guest
I agree with you, and I’ll be standing there with you, but there have been a lot of errors made, far too many to post here. As far as their souls being at risk, I really don’t know. The church says and if it truly believes that ALL churches have some truth, then this breakaway church would have as much truth at least as much truth as the Muslims, Jehovas Witnesses and the Hindus, and in fact even more, since they split over a matter of discipline, not doctrine. While I agree that discipline and obedience is necessary, it is fully man made and subject to change by man. Rules of discipline and obedience have never been set in stone.
I guess we will wait and see. I pray that the Holy Father takes due note of this and does something.
Sadly it is true that not only are most Amercna catholics barely catholic, but most Catholics worldwide are barely Catholic anymore. It is a terrible terrible situation.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
palmas,
The lay board has been excommunicated and the Priest an d board are publicly declared to be in schism. That means anyone attending services there are cooperators in schims…which is a moral sin.
Binding and loosing is real.
The lay board has been excommunicated and the Priest an d board are publicly declared to be in schism. That means anyone attending services there are cooperators in schims…which is a moral sin.
Binding and loosing is real.
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palmas85
Guest
I agree withyou. I’m just saying in the ecumenical climate that we have today, what with everyone being saved, no one going to hell, everyone being a saint, all churches, Catholic, Christian or otherwise being on the same page so to speak, how can the Church really expect these people to believe that they are truly excommunicated? The Church has painted itself into a theological corner over the past forty years or so.
Lets look at it this way. The Church used to say there was no salvation outside the Catholic Church. I remember that from catechism classes back in the old pre-Vatican II days. OK, after Vatican II we say that all can be saved, you don’t have to be Catholic or accept Catholic doctrine, and in fact can expressly reject Catholic teaching, as the majority of Protestants do, and still attain salvation. So it is easy enough to see how people might not take the threat of or the actual imposition of excommunication seriously.
As I said the Church has painted itself into a tight corner and the Holy Father needs to do something…
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