Hundreds Attend 'Illicit' Mass in Mo

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Amen!!!
The world is looking at the Catholic church and wondering,how are they going to clean up the church?.
The first thing that comes to my mind is,Who’s with us and who’s not?Here’s the rules,Are you in or out?
Anyone with kids?Did yours try saying,“yeah,I’ll do this or that,but can I do this first today and then I’ll do what you want.”
Next thing you know toady becomes tomorrow or the next day and the next.You lose any form of authority.Before you know it,it’s OK: to kill babies,old people,gay priests,women priests and who knows how far it could all go.
Look the ACLU wants to take Christmas, out of Christmas!The church established when we celebrate the Holy day.If that is what they want,I say establish your own holiday.Make it some other time of year.Quit trying to steal and change ours.

I’ve said this before,you can’t be Catholic and pro-choice!I don’t think you can be Christian and pro-choice! Once you establish that to be a fact,why do you want to recieve communion?
Your mind set is somewhere else.You don’t like the rules,why stay?Now my kids are a different story!They have to stay and you betcha,you’re gonna do it and like it!
 
A Catholic might not always do what is right. But a Catholic always agrees with the Church as to what is right and wrong.

The Catholic Church, unlike other churches, is a Church in which all of its members agree with the Church and with each other in matters of Faith and Morals.

A person who does not agree with what the Catholic Church teaches is not a Catholic.

A bad Catholic is bad, but he is still a Catholic.

A person who decides for himself what is what is right and wrong is not a Catholic at all. He is evil, no matter how good his actions may seem.
 
Before we go to far, let me remind everyone that we have a right to disrespectfully disagree with and to question the authority of the church. That is a right given to all of us under Canon Law. The problem is that too many people think that a right to question is synonymous with a right to disobey if we don’t agree…as I have already pointed out, we do NOT have a right to disobey.

It pains me to see this all unfold, but unfortunately I feel this issue is demonstrative of the attitude of too many Catholics in this country. It seems to be the attitude that they can select which parts of the Church they want to believe in and reject the parts of the faith they disagree with because its either uncomfortable to them or just plain inconvenient, and still demand to be considered in communion with the Church as if it were some sort of inalienable right.

I don’t like to be hostile or sound cynical, but I would almost agree with William Donahue (who was commenting on individuals who insist that women should be ordained as priests, but the core of the issue is pretty much the same) when he said once “if [that] is how you feel then run…don’t walk, RUN to the Episcopalian church across the street”.
 
Chris Jacobsen:
A person who decides for himself what is what is right and wrong is not a Catholic at all. He is evil, no matter how good his actions may seem.
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Huh? Why did God give us a brain and conscience then? Are we not to be using them?
 
shades of gray:
Huh? Why did God give us a brain and conscience then? Are we not to be using them?
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The brain is used to read and search. For a Catholic, that would be church teaching that is searched for. The conscience? That is to be develpoed by understanding this teaching.
 
shades of gray:
Huh? Why did God give us a brain and conscience then? Are we not to be using them?
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Everyone is free to interpret any and all facets of the Catholic faith and decide for themselves as to what belief and faith they will follow. They then have every right to call themselves protestants.They are then free to use their brain and conscience to choose to go somewhere where they feel comfortable. The Church has the Pope and the magesterium. It’s followers are called Catholic. While there have been some in the hierarchy who have been negligent in enforcing (not a bad thing) and proclaiming Catholic doctrine, Canon Law and rubrics, the fact remains that these rules exist and have existed for hundreds and thousands of years in some cases. That fact alone should indicate that following one Pope decended from Peter has had it’s advantages as far as maintaining the True Faith.

In contrast, ask the members of the 30,000 plus protestant sects where using their individual brains and consciences have brought them. New sects are springing up daily when someone comes up with a “new” interpretation of a “new” interpretation of a “new” interpretation of something that got caught in someone’s craw a mere 25 or 50 or 100 years ago.

Although we may take sides in this sad debacle, the truth is that this is a case where these heretical christians chose to remove themselves from the authority of the Church. They would not have done so had they found someone in the Church who supported their position. They could not! This was not unlike fishing for an agreeable priest who condones contraception or abortion or same sex marriage or marriage outside the Church while waiting for a hoped for annulment to come in just so that a cafeteria catholic can justify their conscience. They appealed to Rome and were denied. That left them fishing in a dry hole!

I am pleased that the cafeteria doors are closing. That may seem cruel and unbending but I read the rules, I know the rules and I trust the 2000 year old Church when it comes to Canon Law and doctrine. If I did not, I could take my pick over over 30,000 ever changing sects. I used my brain. I have struggled with my conscience from time to time. I like the security of the one true faith.
 
Some extreme Catholic traditionalists(like Traditio and Daily Catholic) think that Archbishop Burke is bullying Saint Stanislaus Kostka Parish.

What these people may be failing to realise is this:

The people at Saint Stanislaus Kostka are NOT defying Archbishop Burke because they want the Tridentine Mass, or they are trying to be Traditional, or because Archbishop Burke is ordering them to do immoral things(which he is not!).

The Saint Stanislaus Kostka people are actually quite liberal.😦
 
We are still going back to the point I laid out earlier. The Catholic Church is a divinely established institution, and therefore is perfect. There are problems in the Church, because the Church is governed by human beings who are all subject to temptation and sin, but the institution of the Church itself is divine…including its hierarchy. If you do not believe that,then you do not believe that Jesus established our church while on this earth. If you do not believe that, you are not Catholic. And if you ARE Catholic, then you believe that and in that light, accept the authority of the church as being divine. A “well formed” conscience is mindful of this principle. Even if you don’t agree with a particular mandate of a particular bishop, you still do not have the right to be disobedient. The “rules of men” given by the church are not in juxtaposition to the “Law of God”, they are one and the same because the “rules of men” emminate from the Divinely appointed institution of the Church, and therefore ARE the “law of God”. A conscience that is well formed would recognize this fact. Failure to concede to this principle is a failure to recognize what the Catholic church is at its core. If you reject this basic premise of the Church, then you reject Catholicism.
 
The Catholic Church is a divinely established institution, and therefore is perfect. There are problems in the Church, because the Church is governed by human beings who are all subject to temptation and sin, but the institution of the Church itself is divine…including its hierarchy.

Indeed you are correct but it is important not to lose sight of your own point regarding the churvch being governed by human beings who are capable of error. I have yet to hear anyone claim that the attempts by some bishops to hush up child molestation incidents, and in doing so allow the molesters to continue preying upon innocent children, was the right thing to do. I’m afraid that my church right or wrong might have a catchy ring to it but if those humans who govern the church are in the wrong then it is the moral responsibility to say as much.
 
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GoLatin:
Some extreme Catholic traditionalists(like Traditio and Daily Catholic) think that Archbishop Burke is bullying Saint Stanislaus Kostka Parish.

What these people may be failing to realise is this:

The people at Saint Stanislaus Kostka are NOT defying Archbishop Burke because they want the Tridentine Mass, or they are trying to be Traditional, or because Archbishop Burke is ordering them to do immoral things(which he is not!).

The Saint Stanislaus Kostka people are actually quite liberal.😦
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I don’t think traditionalists have too much to fear from Abp. Burke. Not only has he invited the traditionalist Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest into both his previous diocese of LaCrosse and his current archdiocese, he celebrates not only the Mass according to 1962 norms but also sometimes other sacraments in the traditional manner (at least once when this summer he performed confirmation for the faithful at St. Francis de Sales Oratory). While some bishops are tolerators of traditionalists, I think His Excellency is one of the few bishops who could be called friends of the movement.
 
Andreas Hofer:
I don’t think traditionalists have too much to fear from Abp. Burke. Not only has he invited the traditionalist Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest into both his previous diocese of LaCrosse and his current archdiocese, he celebrates not only the Mass according to 1962 norms but also sometimes other sacraments in the traditional manner (at least once when this summer he performed confirmation for the faithful at St. Francis de Sales Oratory). While some bishops are tolerators of traditionalists, I think His Excellency is one of the few bishops who could be called friends of the movement.
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You are right, Andreas, the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest(www.icrsp.com) really likes Archbishop Burke.:amen:
 
. I’m afraid that my church right or wrong might have a catchy ring to it but if those humans who govern the church are in the wrong then it is the moral responsibility to say as much.

You are absolutely correct, but lets please remember that what I am talking about is obedience. Once again, Jesus made it very clear in the Gospel that we do not have the right to disobey the authority of the Church. Yes the human beings that compose the authority of the church are often less than perfect, just as the Pharisees were less than perfect, yet Jesus still instructed to “do as they say” even though they were hypocritical and less than holy. Jesus did not say "do what they say (as long as you believe it is right).

Ultimately, Church doctrine and Scripture are very clear on this, and I just feel that too many people conveniently overlook the fact that we are called to obedience, and our personal opinions and emotions are not justification for disregarding this doctrine.
 
You are absolutely correct, but lets please remember that what I am talking about is obedience. Once again, Jesus made it very clear in the Gospel that we do not have the right to disobey the authority of the Church. Yes the human beings that compose the authority of the church are often less than perfect, just as the Pharisees were less than perfect, yet Jesus still instructed to “do as they say” even though they were hypocritical and less than holy. Jesus did not say "do what they say (as long as you believe it is right).

Ultimately, Church doctrine and Scripture are very clear on this, and I just feel that too many people conveniently overlook the fact that we are called to obedience, and our personal opinions and emotions are not justification for disregarding this doctrine.

Where the question is one of faith or doctrine I am inclined to agree with you but this is primarily a matter of politics and financial control. By only following in a blind obedience the logical conclusion to reach, using your own example is that Jesus, in a defacto sense, instructed us to be hypocritical and less than holy.
Can any of us say that should we ever have a bishop of our dioscese declare that issue of social justice includes a right to unrestricted abortion, considering some of the more vocal priests out there the notion isn’t as far fetched as I wish it were, that we would then join planned parenthood and march with the national abortion rights action league?
 
joshua b.,as with most of your postings I agree.The key is to be obedient.They are the spiritual leaders and we should have faith in them and trust their decissions.
I did want to comment on Tridentine Mass.My parents took me to a mass this summer.It was the best mass I’ve been to in 30 years! I wish we had a church closer to home that offered it weekly.I’d be a regular!Mass the way a Mass should be!
 
MhLede, you are puting far too little fatih in Jesus with your example of a Bishop promoting abortion. Yes, a bishop can promote abortion. Why would that mean we would have to join planned parenthood? If he demanded we join planned parenthood, then it would not be backed by anything scriptural, doctrinal or anything. He would be excomunicated, or releaved of His post. Jesus set up a Church where all we lay people have to worry about is attending mass, and living out Jesus’ words to us. That, is compliance. Our brains, and our conscience? Trust me, your brain doesn’t have enough cells in it to fully comprehend the beauty of God’s Church and God’s creation even if you spent every second of the rest of your life contemptlating. Your brain would not have a spare moment if you went through your life relating events to what Jesus’ Church teaches. Don’t act as if proudly acting out against the Church is a requirement for deep thinkers.
That said, this did start out as a political issue, but it quickly turned in to one of faith. The lay board and Father Bozek were tested over what was a very small and easy stumbling block to overcome. Did they value the Church that Jesus founded? Did they value the Church that helped their ancestral home of Poland make it through many rough times? Did they trust Jesus enough to surrender their pride, their money, and their power, and pray to Him that He will make things right that are worrying their hearts?
No to all of those. Yes to all of these.
Did they fear their secular Polish Heritage Center, which they recieved many secular donations to make, would be closed if they handed over their assets? Yes. They thought donors would sue for their money back.
Were they given many warning as to what would happen to them if they continued to openly defy the Church? Yes.
Did the Pope, and the Vatican tell them to comply? Yes.
Were they, and are they still full of pride (the root of all evil)? Yes.
Will the fervor fade, and will they begin to long for the Church deep in their hearts? Yes, I think so.
Will Father Bozek by applauded in Heaven? I can only go by evidence. People we know went straight to heaven and are Saints, withstood more scandal than Father Bozek and the lay board percieve was going on, and made the Church stronger within her walls. We were even given over three miracles a piece from people like Saint Francis de Sales, who said that
“Those who commit these types of scandals are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder,” destroying other people’s faith in God by their terrible example. But then he warned his listeners, “But I’m here among you to prevent something far worse for you. While those who give scandal are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, those who take scandal - who allow scandals to destroy their faith - are guilty of spiritual suicide.”
Their faith in Jesus isn’t destroyed, but the parishioner’s faith in the only Church He founded is destroyed and the lay board laughs. This is bad enough.
 
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