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Memaw
Guest
When one becomes a Catholic, if they are sincere, we are supposed to do our best to live up to Catholic teaching no matter what our previous thoughts were. God Bless, Memaw.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
In certain circumstances the Church will allow a Josephite Marriage. THis is usually done under competent spiritual direction. Perhaps you could look into that. Ask your priest for sure, but more than that, learn the Church’s teachings on marriage and what it is. In this day and age we are so confused to what marriage is and what it is for. Try to learn why it has been raised to a Sacrament but God.
You need to go deeper into the theology and purpose of marriage. It will help your faith AND your marriage!
You need to go deeper into the theology and purpose of marriage. It will help your faith AND your marriage!
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Truth_Faith13
Guest
As someone thinking about joining the catholic faith, I can sympathise with the contraception issue. I’m going to take your post literally and say you are not having sex because you don’t want children? As you both love each other dearly, I’m guessing you would happily have sex if it wasn’t for the possibility of kids?My husband and I recently got baptized into the Catholic faith. We realized that the use of contraception is a sin. But because we don’t want children, we decided not to have sex. Is this still wrong and sinful?
We are coping pretty well after a year of no-sex. My husband is very active at Church while I read the Bible daily, trying to know God better. We’ve talked about this lately and we agree that even if we want children later on, it seems quite impossible to be “lustful” with each other as we seem incapable of sexual or lustful thoughts now.
I guess I am just asking if there are others like us, who now find themselves incapable of sex and who live with their spouses like brothers and sisters? My husband and I love each other very much and often pray that we can leave together as we are quite inseparable.
I think you have gone a little too extreme and I’m not sure if it’s because you find the easier or truly don’t have knowledge of certain things. I don’t mean to patronise you if you do, so apologies if you are already aware of what I’m about to say…
OK, have you heard of natural family planning? Some sites make it sound a lot more complicated than it is?
It is based around the fact that women produce one egg once a month meaning we are only fertile (able to conceive a child) for 24hours in every month (not very much hey!). Sperm can survive in the woman’s body for upto 6days…therefore everyone woman has a window of ONE WEEK. Natural family planning or NFP is about working out when this week is and not having sex during it if you want to space children/not get pregnant. It’s actually more effective than contraception.
I’m not a complete convert yet, but I’m learning and trying so I’m still using contraception but only during that one week. (Please don’t shoot me catholics!) the rest of the time I’m not and I haven’t got pregnant yet.
So please don’t feel like you have t abstein from sex completely!
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
NFP most definitely is part of the answer. You should learn it. As others have pointed out you do not need a “sexless” marriage. However to purposely barren you and your spouse with the idea that you will never have children just because you do not want to is not something God would call you to do in a marriage.
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bobcrawford
Guest
Well for one thing, NFP is no where near 100% effective.
I remember attending pre-cana with my now wife and they had this couple come in to talk about NFP. They admitted that they had a child when using said method to prevent pregnancy at the time. Not the greatest couple to bring in to talk about its effectiveness.
I always found the birth control argument interesting. Using artificial control methods such as a condom is a sin according to the Church. However, using NFP is OK.
Now using the murder argument. It is a sin if I kill someone. It is also a sin if I have someone commit the act of murder for me.
So in both cases, using a condom or NFP has the same intention, therefore they both according to Church teaching should be a sin.
Makes no sense to me whatsoever. Did not mean to hijack the thread, but it is related.
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EasterJoy
Guest
This is not an entirely accurate answer, because it does not remind the OP that there ought to be a serious reason to avoid sex when the goal is to avoid pregnancy. NFP is not meant as an aid to help Catholics avoid the blessings God intends for them to have. Children and marital relations are among the essential goods of marriage, and while they can be avoided for legitimate reasons, they are not to be renounced for selfish reasons.
*CCC **The openness to fertility **
1652 "By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory."162
Children are the supreme gift of marriage and contribute greatly to the good of the parents themselves. God himself said: “It is not good that man should be alone,” and “from the beginning [he] made them male and female”; wishing to associate them in a special way in his own creative work, God blessed man and woman with the words: “Be fruitful and multiply.” Hence, true married love and the whole structure of family life which results from it, without diminishment of the other ends of marriage, are directed to disposing the spouses to cooperate valiantly with the love of the Creator and Savior, who through them will increase and enrich his family from day to day.163
**1653 **The fruitfulness of conjugal love extends to the fruits of the moral, spiritual, and supernatural life that parents hand on to their children by education. Parents are the principal and first educators of their children.164 In this sense the fundamental task of marriage and family is to be at the service of life.165
**1654 *Spouses to whom God has not granted children can nevertheless have a conjugal life full of meaning, in both human and Christian terms. Their marriage can radiate a fruitfulness of charity, of hospitality, and of sacrifice.
and canon law:
***Can. 1055 §1. **The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life and which is ordered by its nature to the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring, has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament between the baptized.
**Can. 1096 §1. *For matrimonial consent to exist, the contracting parties must be at least not ignorant that marriage is a permanent partnership between a man and a woman ordered to the procreation of offspring by means of some sexual cooperation.
Having said that, I would not jump to the conclusion that this couple has lost the desire for sexual relations for self-centered reasons, which is to say solely because they do not want to make sacrifices for children they have been granted the means to care for but do not want to care for. That a reluctance to make the sacrifices asked of parents and a prejudice against children is unfortunately in their hearts does not imply it is the only reason they are refraining from marital relations. They may, for instance, want to devote themselves to prayer and a level of service to the Lord that is more typical of that attainable by celibate people. These considerations are a bit beyond the pay grade of a typical layperson to sort out (as opposed to a priest or someone trained and formed according to the Church’s wisdom in pastoral counseling.)
Although the authority to make a decision of this kind rests with me and with my husband, I would not do this while relying solely on our limited ability to discern. This is something that wants on-going spiritual advice from a competent party. If the OP couple wants a Josephite marriage, that is a marriage that abstains from sexual relations for the sake of service to the Lord, they ought to have regular spiritual guidance for their choice. Not just one session, but regular guidance and regular inquiries into how they are doing.
In any event, I would strongly recommend that this couple pray regularly about their repugnance for people who haven’t reached a certain age. To carry a prejudice against an entire class of persons is not the attitude of Heaven, but something to work on–particularly when one has a prejudice against children! They ought to meditate on this passage of Holy Scripture and ask themselves why they are rejected someone that Our Lord specifically called his disciples to welcome as if welcoming the Our Lord Himself as a guest:
He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said, “Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me. Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come! … See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven always look upon the face of my heavenly Father." Matt. 18:2-7, 10
The next time the OP couple sees some children, they need to think hard about what the Lord had to say in those passages, and challenge themselves about why they see children so very differently than their Lord and Savior sees them.
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TheWarriorMonk
Guest
The couple is presumed to have a valid marriage until a Tribunal decides otherwise. Also, there is no requirement that a married couple have sex, nor is not having sex sinful, nor is sex a requirement for the validity of the marriage.
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agapewolf
Guest
wrong analogy. It is a sin to murder someone. It is not a sin for someone to die of natural cuases. Same end, different means.
It is a sin to rob a bank. It is not a sin to earn money honestly. Same end different means
and yes, NFP is close to 100% effective.
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bobcrawford
Guest
It’s is very valid. Intention is key to what is a sin or not a sin.
NFD is not that effective at all. That was just one couple. I have more stories.
If the intent is not to get pregnant, what difference does it make if it is a condom or NFP? The result is still the same, to avoid pregnancy.
No wonder 95% of Catholics use something other than NFP. NFP is not that effective.
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IBombAtomically
Guest
There are times when it is not prudent to have another child, like serious health reasons, in which case God has given us infertile times during the months to work with.
In regards to the OP, I have tremendous respect that you are committed to abstaining rather than using ABC. May God bless you tremendously. As a former child-hater myself, now expecting my third, I gotta admit I hope you will prayerfully ask God to work in your heart if it is His will for you to have children. Please don’t make the decision out of fear.
I used to think kids were the rudest, grossest, most unpleasant creatures on the planet. I mean, everything about kids disgusted me. But having your own does something to you. Imagine feeling a love for someone so titanic that you don’t care that they just threw-up in your hair. For the fourth time today. Pregnancy and delivery isn’t fun, and I’m someone who faints at everything, too. But once you hear that first tiny cry something stirs inside of you, and the pain becomes so small compared to the beautiful forever relationship you’ve formed. It’s hard to put into words how much richer my life has become thanks to welcoming children, and everything I used to think was important doesn’t seem very important anymore. Just a little (name removed by moderator)ut from someone who’s been there. But I respect your decision.
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Memaw
Guest
There is no “presumed”. It either is or it isn’t and they won’t know that till they talk to a priest. They don’t need a marriage tribunal. To deliberatly not have sex to NEVER have children thwarts the whole purpose of marriage. One doesn’t get married to be ‘companions’. Marriage is meant to give and recieve each others love and to be open to the gift of children. I don’t think it is OK to even practice NFP for the sole purpose of never having childrem
Something oi wrong here somewhere!. They need a priest to help them. God Bless, Memaw
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CarrieSpooner
Guest
You do realize that condoms aren’t that effective, right?
If it doesn’t matter whether it’s NFP or condoms then why do so many object to NFP and so many use birth control instead?
The PP was right about your logic not applying to the scenarios. Contraception is sinful and NFP isn’t. One is giving yourself fully to your spouse as Christ did to the Church and you are commanded to do as a husband. The other is blocking the very life giving part of yourself and withholding which is nearly the opposite of what Jesus did in giving himself up for the Church.
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EasterJoy
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Well, actually, if they have never had sex, their marriage is not yet consummated. The OP has not indicated that the couple has never consummated their marriage, though. I don’t see any reason to think they do not have a valid marriage.
Let us remember, however, that these are pious and devout people. This is not a get-by-on-the-minimum couple asking this question! They want to serve the Lord with their whole hearts, that is why they are asking this question! Well, whenever we avoid doing something because we are afraid it will require generosity of heart that we don’t want to extend, whenever we avoid someone because we don’t like “that kind of people,” we have to look very hard at that. As St. John of the Cross put it, “God desires the least degree of obedience and submissiveness more than all those services you think of rendering him.” And again he said, “Deny your desires and you will find what your heart longs for. For how do you know if any desire of yours is according to God?”
It is not incorrect for this couple to be told that they are not required to have sexual relations and even that how to use NFP is theirs to discern. To tell them that alone, though, is much too little. It is not the whole story. More to the point, to fail to encourage them to be open to the children God might send them might be to discourage them from accepting not only a great joy for themselves but a great saint for God. Both children and marital relations are goods of marriage. A couple should not avoid them unnecessarily.
Our Lady was told she was chosen to have a child before she was married. She could have gotten stoned or shunned by all who knew her when she was found with child. Her response was, “Let it be done to me according to your word.” We have to remind each other of that as often as possible, and try to act according to her example. I am not saying that this couple does not have her heart–the name “Josephite marriage” comes from her marriage! I am saying they ought to seek spiritual direction, to be certain that they are choosing their present course with her heart.
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agapewolf
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If I intend to stick my foot out and trip someone, that is a sinful intent. If I unknowingly trip someone with my foot, I didn’t have bad intent, not sinful.
You are way off. I already explained same ends and different means to get there. The ends in this situation is to not get pregnant. Use of NFP vs birth control are different means to get there. Same as death as ends: murder or natural causes is means.
NFP is VERY effective. more so than ANY artificial birth control, which do not work. Birth control gets credit for working even when it doesn’t (such as when women are infertile), and when its abortive.
a few anecdotal stories of people that got pregnant while using NFP does not make statistics. Most of the time, you’ll even see on here, when people say we "kind of " used NFP and got pregnant. that’s not using NFP.
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TheWarriorMonk
Guest
There most certainly is.
The priest does not have the authority to determine definitively if the marriage is valid or not. The priest can only advise.
The marriage Tribunal exists to determine whether or not the marriage is valid. Neither you, nor I, nor a priest outside of a Tribunal can determine the status of a marriage.
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Laurent_LUG
Guest
No , it’s not !! What with 2 people who can’t have kids ??
OK , they could legally adopt a child (if approved) ;
but what if don’t wanna have one ??
(Look , i’m not catholic anymore)
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TheWarriorMonk
Guest
Consummation is not required for validity.
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EasterJoy
Guest
This is an obscure point, and as far as I know has nothing to do with the OP.
You are right: a valid marriage is valid whether or not it is consummated. A marriage cannot be annulled because it wasn’t consummated unless a tribunal finds it was impossible to do so or finds that one party made vows without ever intending to fulfill their marital duty. Until those findings, it is presumed that there is no impediment and the marriage is valid, whether consummated or not.
A valid marriage that has not been consummated can be dissolved, although this is reserved for the Pope. In the current case, for instance, if the couple had never consummated their marriage and they decided to go their separate ways–perhaps to each go join a Carmelite community, whatever, or one to a monastery and the other to look to marry and have children–the Pope could agree to dissolve their marriage. He can do this because a valid marriage that has not been consummated is not yet sacramental.
That does not mean there is anything wrong with a couple deciding on a Josephite marriage–far from it. They do have to realize that either spouse can unilaterally decide that they want to assert the prerogative that marriage gives them and ask for their marital rights–that is, they can remind their spouse that engaging in the marital act is a duty. It isn’t a drop-everything-right-now-no-matter-your-situation duty, but the point is that consent for a Josephite marriage is given on an on-going basis. Either party can opt out any time they want to do so.
The OP has raised issues about whether this decision was made for a reason that is in the best spiritual interests of the couple or whether they are doing it for reasons that might keep them from advancing as God intends. This is something they would be wise to discuss with a spiritual director. You are right, however: If neither one wants to engage in sexual relations, they are not going to be told that it is automatically a sin if they don’t. That is not so. It may be better or worse for their spiritual advancement for them to remain as they are or not. It may be better or worse for them to adjust their attitudes towards children and fellow married people who have accepted the duties of parenthood, but even an adjustment in those attitudes wouldn’t automatically imply that this couple ought to do anything different with regards to their marital relations. Yes, that is true!
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EasterJoy
Guest
Marriage is ordered to the procreation of offspring. That doesn’t guarantee that offspring will result, that doesn’t mean that couples who do not procreate must adopt an orphan, and it doesn’t even mean that couples must have sex. It means that offspring are not an optional peripheral add-on to marriage. To decide to avoid to have them is a serious matter, and a couple ought to have serious reasons before doing so. Incapacity to provide for the children is not the only serious reason that exists, though. A call the couple feels to devote themselves to prayer and service in a Josephite marriage is also a serious reason. It is happier, perhaps, but if it is their discerned call, it is still sufficiently serious. Since this couple has expressed concern that they are not comfortable that their reasons are entirely praiseworthy, they would do well to consult with a spiritual director. If nothing else, this guidance would help them feel more peaceful about their decision and probably more fruitful in the course they have chosen, too.
Can. 1055 §1. The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life and which is ordered by its nature to the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring, has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament between the baptized.
Can. 1096 §1. For matrimonial consent to exist, the contracting parties must be at least not ignorant that marriage is a permanent partnership between a man and a woman ordered to the procreation of offspring by means of some sexual cooperation
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sainthumbert
Guest
Some people are suggesting that you use NFP. They are wrong. NFP cannot be used for selfish reasons (which you yourself admit is the reason you don’t want children). It can only be used for serious reasons.
There doesn’t seem to be any direct ordinance against abstaining from sex completely for selfish reasons. On the other hand, there are certain principles that you would run afoul such as the teaching that procreation is the primary purpose of marriage.
Hopefully Christ will “thaw” your hearts a little more still.
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