Hypocrisy and Right vs. Left Wing

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Both sides have their problems. However the Democrat Party can not escape the fact they are awash in the blood of 50 million dead children. 400 children have been dismembered and thrown out with the trash since my first post to this thread this mornng. One party thinks this is evil-one party thinks taxpayers should pay for it.
It’s pure hypocrisy to suggest that any one party bears any more responsiblity than another. Republicans decry abortion and do NOTHING to stop it. You cannot paint the situation black and white. The fact is that abortion was made legal because most people in this country favored that it be so, and they still do. stop pretending otherwise.

And I see you never stop your love affair with the most disgustingly graphic portrayals your mind can conjure up. I find it ironic you are so intent on making people angry rather than changing their minds. Both ideas raise some interesting thoughts, psychologically speaking that is.
 
It’s pure hypocrisy to suggest that any one party bears any more responsiblity than another. Republicans decry abortion and do NOTHING to stop it.
In point of fact, they have done a great deal – including appointing pro-life judges.

They could have done a lot more, but for the resistance of the Democrats.
You cannot paint the situation black and white. The fact is that abortion was made legal because most people in this country favored that it be so, and they still do. stop pretending otherwise.
It’s your theory that Roe v Wade was a plebiscite? :rolleyes:
And I see you never stop your love affair with the most disgustingly graphic portrayals your mind can conjure up. I find it ironic you are so intent on making people angry rather than changing their minds. Both ideas raise some interesting thoughts, psychologically speaking that is
And you never stop attacking those who are working to save human lives.

That’s also interesting, psychologically speaking.
 
It’s pure hypocrisy to suggest that any one party bears any more responsiblity than another. Republicans decry abortion and do NOTHING to stop it. You cannot paint the situation black and white. The fact is that abortion was made legal because most people in this country favored that it be so, and they still do. stop pretending otherwise.
Abortion was made legal by judicial fiat. It remains legal becuase people rationalize supporting pro-abortion politicians.
And I see you never stop your love affair with the most disgustingly graphic portrayals your mind can conjure up. I find it ironic you are so intent on making people angry rather than changing their minds. Both ideas raise some interesting thoughts, psychologically speaking that is.
It is sad that you are not as outraged at those who support this carnage as you are at those who dare describe it.
 
It’s pure hypocrisy to suggest that any one party bears any more responsiblity than another. Republicans decry abortion and do NOTHING to stop it. You cannot paint the situation black and white. The fact is that abortion was made legal because most people in this country favored that it be so, and they still do. stop pretending otherwise.
At it again?

First off, abortion was made legal because some clever lawyers played up a constitutional notion (implied right to privacy) that is specious at best, and the Supreme Court bought it. Public opinion did not and does not enter into evidence in a court of law.

Incidentally, the woman on whose behalf the Roe v. Wade suit was filed eventually became a pro-life activist and a Catholic.

Secondly, please demonstrate some evidence to back up your claim that “most people in this country” supported or still support the legalization of abortion.

You can’t just throw bald assertions around, SM. If you’re going to make a claim – particularly when it’s being used to shoot down someone else’s position – the onus is on you to provide some evidence.

Peace,
Dante
 
At it again?

First off, abortion was made legal because some clever lawyers played up a constitutional notion (implied right to privacy) that is specious at best, and the Supreme Court bought it. Public opinion did not and does not enter into evidence in a court of law.

Incidentally, the woman on whose behalf the Roe v. Wade suit was filed eventually became a pro-life activist and a Catholic.

Secondly, please demonstrate some evidence to back up your claim that “most people in this country” supported or still support the legalization of abortion.

You can’t just throw bald assertions around, SM. If you’re going to make a claim – particularly when it’s being used to shoot down someone else’s position – the onus is on you to provide some evidence.

Peace,
Dante
Very well stated. IIRC SpirtMeadow is a former attorney. I don’t know how a trained attorney could not realize that Roe v Wade was what made abortion legal and was not an act of the people…very strange. :confused:
 
Very well stated. IIRC SpirtMeadow is a** former** attorney. I don’t know how a trained attorney could not realize that Roe v Wade was what made abortion legal and was not an act of the people…very strange. :confused:
You may have broken the code here.😉
 
I this country if I voted for the most right-wing of the major I would be voting for legal abortion, for civil unions, for family planning in schools.
Have you actually thought about that? Does it strike you that the labels you use are not accurate? Perhaps, deep down, your definition of “right wing” is simply “People I don’t like” – because by your own admission, those who you call “right wing” in your country are a far cry from those you call “right wing” in this country.
 
Cynic told Vern-
this country if I voted for the most right-wing of the major I would be voting for legal abortion, for civil unions, for family planning in schools.
Do what?
 
Have you actually thought about that? Does it strike you that the labels you use are not accurate? Perhaps, deep down, your definition of “right wing” is simply “People I don’t like” – because by your own admission, those who you call “right wing” in your country are a far cry from those you call “right wing” in this country.
yes ok, the point was to say that the association between conservative economic policy and moral conservatism is only true for the United States. To then draw some conclusion that moderate democratic socialism, the left, by neccessity means amoral social policies is unfair. If there is some connnection it is only because left wing/labour parties were hijacked in the 70’s by groups with liberal agendas.
 
Have you actually thought about that? Does it strike you that the labels you use are not accurate? Perhaps, deep down, your definition of “right wing” is simply “People I don’t like” – because by your own admission, those who you call “right wing” in your country are a far cry from those you call “right wing” in this country.
Actually, Vern, I seem to recall reading (possibly on Wikipedia) that the terms liberal and conservative imply totally different ideologies in the US from those associated with the same terms in other countries. If that’s the case, it seems that it is we who are misusing them – and, by extension, the terms left wing and right wing.

I could be wrong, but I thought I’d throw that in there.

Peace,
Dante
 
Actually, modern American conservatism is a unique creation.

There is a recent book that describes it and how it came to be after World War II.

amazon.com/Upstream-Ascendance-Conservatism-Alfred-Regnery/dp/1416522883

“Upstream: The Ascendance of American Conservatism”
by Alfred S. Regnery

The author was recently interviewed on www.booktv.org and was extremely interesting. Depending on how they post to their Web site, you might be able to find the interview on line.

The classic great book that describes American conservatism is “Conscience of a Conservative” by Barry Goldwater.

amazon.com/Conscience-Conservative-Barry-Goldwater/dp/9563100212/ref=pd_sim_b_img_17

Not only read these two books, but also read the 30 reviews of the Goldwater book.

Then take a look at the similar books by other authors that are displayed on the Amazon site.

Finally, while it may seem to be off topic, read the books about the Fair Tax … because they describe how our present taxation system really has its origins in Marxist envy … to which modern American conservatism is the antidote.

amazon.com/FairTax-Answering-Critics-Neal-Boortz/dp/0061540463/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

I’m in the middle of reading it now; and it is really excellent.

Elimination of the Internal Revenue Service and the 56000 pages of the tax code, which are incomprehensible to both the citizenry as well as to the IRS are key to restoration of American-flavor democracy … [actually the U.S. is a republic].

… and reforming the tax code … to end punishing citizens who produce economic gains for society … and to restore freedom … is an integral component of modern American conservatism.

What is truly ironic is that other countries are abandoning socialism and are gradually adopting various aspects of modern American conservatism … and they are doing it faster than is the United States … particularly with respect to taxation.
 
yes ok, the point was to say that the association between conservative economic policy and moral conservatism is only true for the United States. To then draw some conclusion that moderate democratic socialism, the left, by neccessity means amoral social policies is unfair. If there is some connnection it is only because left wing/labour parties were hijacked in the 70’s by groups with liberal agendas.
And that is the one, true constant.
 
In point of fact, they have done a great deal – including appointing pro-life judges.

They could have done a lot more, but for the resistance of the Democrats.

It’s your theory that Roe v Wade was a plebiscite? :rolleyes:

And you never stop attacking those who are working to save human lives.

That’s also interesting, psychologically speaking.
One thing that is important to keep in mind is that, scientifically speaking, there is reason to believe that self described liberals and self descried conservatives actually think in very different ways.

From research at UCLA and UC Davis we know that, statistically speaking, self described conservatives have considerable more difficulty with correctly identifying objective reality (even something as fundemental as letters of the alphabet presented on a screen). The data also strongly suggests that self indentified conservatives are significantly more prone to “pattern conditioning”.

The actual cause and effect is not yet clear. But the research follows up on a phenomena that has been previously demonstrated in research for more than a decade - the so-called “reality gap”. We’ve known for some time that individuals who rely principally on conservative talk radio or Fox News for their information are considerably more likely to struggle with objective facts regarding public policy topics. Things like ‘which Americans spend the most of their own money on health care?’ or ‘in the recent conflict in Basra, which side is connected to Iran?’

Given the implications, one group that perceives the other as being oblivious to reality and the other group convinced that facts are a smokescreen to distract from perceived higher truths… It seems small wonder that so little meaningful dialog occurs.

Consider this situation. You are convinced that a great deal has been accomplished. But, someone who insists on tangible, measurable reality, could reasonably disagree. For example, the current administration has made two Supreme Court appointments. Both had an opportunity to wade in on Roe and Casey. Both chose to uphold and apply them as applicable law. Looking at their records, it might be reasonable to propose that they were selected more for their outlook on vast expansion of Presidential power than anything else.

Similarly, it might be reasonable to question the entire premise of addressing abortion through secular law. Oregon has been pegged as the ultimate enemy to fetal life in terms of its laws by multiple pro life groups - but the state’s abortion rate has reduced dramatically over the last few decades - vastly better than most states the same groups have claimed ‘success’ in.

Ultimately, you appear to be interested in wholly different things. Spirit Meadow appears to be interested in tangible, measurable, results. While you are more interested in reaffirmation of what you already hold to be inarguably true.

On the surface this would seem to be a conflict of faith vs. reason. Sort of like the President’s recent comments about the tremendous condition of the economy against a background of staggeringly bad economic reports.

But I tend to agree with our pope. Faith and reason are wholly compatible. Conflicts only occur when one uses a flawed definition for one or the other.
 
For example, the current administration has made two Supreme Court appointments. Both had an opportunity to wade in on Roe and Casey. Both chose to uphold and apply them as applicable law. Looking at their records, it might be reasonable to propose that they were selected more for their outlook on vast expansion of Presidential power than anything else.
That’s not the way the Supreme Court works.

The individual judges don’t have the authority “to wade in” on any issue.

There are many individuals and groups prepared to submit cases to the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade; however, they won’t do so until they are assured of getting the votes to win. Right now, there are too many pro-abortion justices on the Supreme Court to allow Roe v. Wade to be overturned.

And that’s the way the Supreme Court works.
 
There is another issue:

We don’t live in a dictatorship. No judge has the authority to “weigh in” on any issue. There IS an issue: judicial activism … in which some judges DO arrogate power to themselves. Liberals have generally been dissatisfied with election results so they have descended on the courts to get what they can’t get through the ballot box.

We live in a very messy form of government which technically is a Republic. (Not a democracy.)

The Constitution was deliberately designed to prescribe the structure of our Federal (central) government has all sorts of safeguards to prevent one party or one group or any popular emotions from running wild and free. Originally only the members of the House of Representatives were chosen by direct election. The members of the Senate were chosen by the state legislatures; now the Senate is chosen by direct election. And the President is (still) chosen by an electoral college.

The state governments and the Federal government are supposed to counterbalance one another. [Read the Tenth Amendment. It is very brief and to the point.]

tenthamendmentcenter.com/

In addition to the Democrat Party and the Republican Party, there are liberals and conservatives. And “middle of the roaders” and “moderates” … whatever that is.

Abortion became legal … and anti-abortion laws in the individual states … because the Federal Supreme Court … the judicial branch went way over the line in assuming powers it didn’t have … and outlawed all the state laws prohibiting or limiting abortion.

Since then, a Republican president, George W. Bush, has appointed two pro-life justices.

We need to have one or two more pro-life justices appointed. BUT, the pro-abortion justices now on the Supreme Court won’t retire until a Democrat is elected President … so that the Democrat President can appoint replacement pro-abortion (“pro-choice”) judges.

The Senate (now controlled by the Democrats) refuses to confirm pro-life judges to Federal courts.

Go here:

confirmthem.com/

We also need for the American people to reform the Federal government to bring it closer to what the original intent of the Constitution was.

Ask yourself this question: which political party has consistently been pro-choice? The answer is: the Democrats.

So, Democrats aided by Rino’s [Republicans in Name Only] … liberal Republicans … [they only are members of the Republican Party because in their states, it is or was easier for Republicans to get elected] … have consistently defeated all efforts to limit or stop abortion.

Senators such as Jim Jeffords, Arlen Spector, Lincoln Chaffee, Olympia Snow, and others consistently join with the Democrats. Some even change party affiliation after being elected to throw control of the Congress into Democrat hands.

A lot of dirty tricks by the liberals/socialists to protect abortion “rights”. There will be a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth at their last judgments. That’s one judgment I pray that I don’t get to experience. I want Heaven, not Hell.
 
That’s not the way the Supreme Court works.

The individual judges don’t have the authority “to wade in” on any issue.

There are many individuals and groups prepared to submit cases to the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade; however, they won’t do so until they are assured of getting the votes to win. Right now, there are too many pro-abortion justices on the Supreme Court to allow Roe v. Wade to be overturned.

And that’s the way the Supreme Court works.
So are you insinuating that Roberts and Alito are not currently executing their oaths and duties in good faith?

We have a specific case that has already been heard and ruled on: Gonzales v. Carhart:

supremecourtus.gov/opinions/06pdf/05-380.pdf

There are three opinions. The prevailing opinion held that the law in question was constitutional because, essentially, it was in keeping with Roe and Casey and would not stop any abortions (there was even a handy guide for bypassing the ‘ban’ included in the opinion).

The concurring opinion held that the ruling was correct, strictly as a matter of law, but expressly stated that the underlying constitutionality of those laws was not held to be true (it also includes the interesting observation that, had the commerce clause been raised as an issue, the author would possibly have sided with the minority).

The dissenting opinion, surprisingly, also criticises Roe, then argues that the majority did not properly apply the principles established in Casey.

So, only one opinion did not criticize Roe, but simply applied it. That is the one that Roberts and Alito joined. It should be noted that Judge Roberts also weighed in on Roe at his comfirmation hearing, and not with an answer that most pro life advocates would want to hear.
 
There is another issue:

We don’t live in a dictatorship. No judge has the authority to “weigh in” on any issue.
This is another case where facts and, say ‘truthiness’ collide. Since the Warner Defense Act, we have private paramilitary forces operating on US soil (blackwater).

We know, from the footnotes of the Yoo torture memo that the current administration considers the 4th Amendment effectively suspended.

We have already conceded in engaging in secret detentions, and over 100 detainees have died in our custody, many of the deaths medically ruled “murder”, but no accountability for the acts.

The president has argued that he is not constrained by the constituion, or even laws passed by Congress (look at his signing statements). The administratin asserts that anyone, even a US citizen on US soil, can be held, forever, without legal recourse soley on the president’s authority.

The vice president has argued that he is a unique branch of the government, wholly outside the rule of law…

It seems to me that if someone has their own ‘security force’ that can wield deadly force, seemingly without consequenc, and they assert that they are the ultimate arbiter for liberty - and life (since torturing people to death has no consequences), we have to start giving serious consideration to definitions like ‘facism’ and ‘dictatorship’.

We have former and current high ranking members of our government who already cannot travel to certain nations because of civil and criminal charges. The Yoo memo has already triggered an investigation, if war crimes are actually charged it might be a good time for Americans to consider what they actually stand for.
Abortion became legal … and anti-abortion laws in the individual states … because the Federal Supreme Court … the judicial branch went way over the line in assuming powers it didn’t have … and outlawed all the state laws prohibiting or limiting abortion.
You seem a little confused about history. Abortions were legal for the first century or so in the US. You can find them widely advertised in newspapers up to about 1850-1870 (depending on locale).

PRIOR to the supreme court decision, 15 states revised their aboriton laws, and legal abortions jumped to about 600,000 per year just prior to the Roe decision. Simply overturning Roe (and Casey), would return us to that situation, with the matter being set state by state.

What also must be considered are illegal abortions. We really have no idea how many have occured in the US. At points in history (like during WWII) we have a rough idea of ‘surges’, because of upturns in maternal deaths. But since the widespread use of antibiotics and plasma, those deaths have dropped to a statistically meaningless low (contrary to the myth, back alley abortionists were essentialy non existant by the 1970s - most illegal abortions were/are performed by medical practitioners).

But, worldwide, research strongly suggests that legal status have only a very small impact on abortion rates. And, since we don’t live in isolation, access to chemical abortificants, which women use in the privacy of their homes now, will be impossible to truly restrict.
Since then, a Republican president, George W. Bush, has appointed two pro-life justices.
Again, this is the gap between faith and evidence. Roberts stated, under oath, that Roe is the law of the land and he did not envision it being changed. He, and Alito, applied Roe/Casey, without comment in their first reproductive rights case.

If we assume secret knowlege (call it Gnostic Politics), wouldn’t lying under oath, or misreprenting one’s beliefs in a opinion be “judicial activism”?

I hear that term a lot, but it seems that people are more concerned with results than the actual principle. Consider Gonzales v. Carhart. The court found that politicians, not doctors, are the best at determining “medical necessity”. Since not even the people who wrote and supported the original ban think it will stop a single abortion, judicial activism in expanding government power would seem to be the most significant outcome of the whole matter.

cont.
 
We need to have one or two more pro-life justices appointed.
What we need are fewer abortions. As Oregon and California have shown, legal status, and leading the country in reducing abortion rates, are two different things.

Focusing solely on secular law is important for the GOP, because it is the only ‘prong’ in the fight against abortion which is compatible with the overall GOP agenda. Let’s face it, if we look at how the Catholic Faithful have been instructed about the inalienable right to life:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_30121988_christifideles-laici_en.html
The Church has never yielded in the face of all the violations that the right to life of every human being has received, and continues to receive, both from individuals and from those in authority. The human being is entitled to such rights, in every phase of development, from conception until natural death; and in every condition, whether healthy or sick, whole or handicapped, rich or poor. The Second Vatican Council openly proclaimed: <<All offences against life itself, such as every kind of murder, genocide, abortion, euthanasia and willful suicide; all violations of the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, physical and mental torture, undue psychological pressures; all offences against human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment, deportation, slavery, prostitution, the selling of women and children, degrading working conditions where men are treated as mere tools for profit rather than free and responsible persons; all these and the like are certainly criminal: they poison human society; and they do more harm to those who practice them than those who suffer from the injury. Moreover, they are a supreme dishonour to the Creator>>" - CHRISTIFIDELES LAICI, #38
There is a lot more to the Catholic belief of “right to life” than just abortion, and we hold much of it to be Dogmatic and inviolate:
“In effect the acknowledgment of the personal dignity of every human being demands the respect, the defence and the promotion of therights of the human person. It is a question of inherent, universal and inviolable rights. No one, no individual, no group, no authority, no State, can change-let alone eliminate-them because such rights find their source in God himself.” - CHRISTIFIDELES LAICI, #38
When you add the overwhelming evidence of a relationship between poverty and procurred abortion, or consider that 27% of the women procurring abortions are Catholic and roughly half of all women procurring abortions are already mothers, our Catholic obligations on the matter become more complicated still.

But, again, it all depends on which master is “loved best”.
 
What we need are fewer abortions. As Oregon and California have shown, legal status, and leading the country in reducing abortion rates, are two different things.

Focusing solely on secular law is important for the GOP, because it is the only ‘prong’ in the fight against abortion which is compatible with the overall GOP agenda. Let’s face it, if we look at how the Catholic Faithful have been instructed about the inalienable right to life:

But, again, it all depends on which master is “loved best”.
👍

Excellent. I may not agree on the solutions you might want, but I sure do on the priorities. Great link.
 
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