Hypocrisy and Right vs. Left Wing

[Al_Masetti]

Tax cuts would grow revenue through a growing economy if they were directed at keeping jobs here instead of throwing them all overseas. I agree with the notion of targeted tax cuts. If you use them to create jobs in the US you get to keep them. If you create jobs overseas then you lose them. This way the cycle stays here. Otherwise you will have people here on the unemployment line with no way to pay the benefits because the money has all gone abroad.

We would have greater transparency if we replaced all of the income taxes and payroll taxes and inheritance taxes with the Fair Tax (retail sales tax plus prebate ).

With the retail sales tax and no more 67000 pages of incomprehensible tax rules and regulations, there would no longer be any incentive for corporations to send jobs overseas.

Visit www.fairtax.org and www.boortz.com

www.atr.org

At the same time, every government budget can be posted onto the internet … Texas and Alaska and other states are already leading the way.

booktv.org/program.aspx?P…P layMedia=No

I played with the booktv.org web site and got a direct link to the Fair Tax presentation.

The whole idea is to introduce transparency.

In other words, government can grow big (and has grown big) by using hidden taxes. However, if government funding is transparent then we will know exactly how much they are taking from us.

Arguably, the U.S Tax Code is the most onerous on the planet and penalizes everyone, rich (who generate the jobs) and the poor (who fill the jobs), alike.

Today is April 15th, income tax filing day in the United States.

Some cynical people (perhaps realistic people) have suggested that April 15th was chosen as income tax filing day because it is as far away from the voting day as humanly possible. That way voters won’t remember the pain of having to fill out all those tax forms. And dealing with all of the ambiguities and poorly written instructions.

Can you imagine … if the tax forms had to be filed on November 4th … voting day. You show up at the polling place, give them your tax forms, and then vote.

Another reason why taxes are so high is because of withholding.

Withholding was introduced to finance World War 2. It should have been eliminated when the war ended in 1945. But instead … because withholding made taxes appear to be “painless”, it was retained.

And now, the taxation system has degenerated to the point that we now “feel” that if we get a refund, the government is giving us money. In fact, it means we got so totally ripped off by the government during the year, that they had to give us back some small portion of our tax money.

So, check out the Fair Tax presentation. And the Boortz and Linder Web sites.

and also www.atr.org where they discuss transparency.

Grover Norquist also made a BookTV presentation on that issue and wrote a book on it.

Here is Norquist’s presentation on his book: “Leave Us Alone”

booktv.org/program.aspx?P…P layMedia=No

 

[BamaRider]

LCM said this about his California Pension-

And I am a member of the best publicly-run pension program in the country and have little worries about my pension. Here’s the thing…my pension isn’t out to make a profit for itself (which yours is…how much are you paying in administrative fees?), but for its members.

California does have a good system for the people in IT,. I don’t know how the rest of the populace may feel about it LOL. The system I’m in is a hybrid of private/state, meaning we are composed of state and municpal workers and agencies, the teachers have their own, but under the same umbrella. COLA’s must be granted by the state and then approved by the local agency to get the raise. It is managed by David Bronner, recognized as one of the best in the country. The system is on solid ground right now, but health care issues must be addressed if it is to continue to be. But really only 3 options in that regard, 1( reitrees must pay more of the premium, 2(accept higher deductables (which has been tthe strategy the last few years or 3( increase the deductions for the guys still working.

But you know all that from being in the system.

Their once was a time nobody wanted to work for state because of the pay, so the pot was sweetened with all kinda of benefits, lots of off days, 25 year retirement, sick leave, BCBS etc. When I joined the fire dept in 1979 it was hard to make living, but that is no longer the case around here. Fire and police are viewed as semi professional now, and are well compensated. Those boys make good money, so I dunno how long new hires are gonna keep getting the same benefit package. I met several firefighters in the Bay area they made upwards of 6 figures. You know how well a guy lives in Alabama on 6 figures!

Under Gray (blackout) Davis, law enforcement and firefighters in California were granted a clause in the state pension allowing them to retire at age 50 at 90% salary. Law enforcement guys have a strong lobby in every state, and the fire service rides their coat tails. That clause is held up as the holy grail for all public safety employees in the country, our lobby fought and received the same in 2002 here in Alabama. In a nutshell police and fire are granted a extra 5 years of service meaing 25 years of service= 30 years in the system. We managed y’all one better by only needing 25 years of service and no minium age of 50.

We have guys that came to work at 20 or 21, eligible to retire at 90% by age 45 or 46. I told those young boys before I retired if they ever left the job they need to get checked out. But lets face it, a young mans job anyway. But one of the reasons I retired I feared they might change their mind and do away with the enhanced package (as they call it around here) LOL.

I have heard of “flex” schedule, but still ALOT of agencies don’t do much on Fridays, but then again that is also true in the private sector. Nobody works on Friday in this country anymore. The ones that do are in fast food, retail, or the poor lady they make come in and answer the phone while everyone else is on the golf course.

Has anyone here ever tried to get the cable guy to come out on Friday? Didja have any luck? LOL

 

[SoCalRC]

Under Gray (blackout) Davis

In the interest of accuracy, it should be noted that we subsequently learned that companies like Enron did, in fact, manipulate the CA energy supply. And it was those same companies that were funding the ads placing the blame on Davis. Enron, of course, ended disastrously, hurting many thousands of poeple. And yes, this is the same Enron that President Bush once touted as a “financial model for the nation”.

It should probably also be noted that our finances are every bit as screwed up today (actually our deficit is larger). And our new Gov, who criticized Davis’ use of creative finance instruments during the recall, has promoted and used precisely the same sorts of dubious debt management as his predecessor.

The reality is that we have had a structural deficit since Prop 13, but covered it during boom periods with aggressive investment and repurposed funds. Since our congressional districts of essentially fixed in party affiliation, there is really very little than any CA Gov can do. Particually since we have super majority constraints. Things have only gotten worse since special interests have discovered that they can twist the citizen proposition process for their own purposes.

It is actually pretty scarey to think we are the ‘supply side’ in the national ‘trickle down’ economy. That is, I am a tax payer in a ‘donor’ county, in a ‘donor’ state that subsidizes states like yours (we pay in more in to the Federal system than we take out, you take out more than you pay in). When we are fiscally shaky, that is bad news for our ‘dependants’ as well.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

LCM said this about his California Pension-

California does have a good system for the people in IT,. I don’t know how the rest of the populace may feel about it LOL. The system I’m in is a hybrid of private/state, meaning we are composed of state and municpal workers and agencies, the teachers have their own, but under the same umbrella. COLA’s must be granted by the state and then approved by the local agency to get the raise. It is managed by David Bronner, recognized as one of the best in the country. The system is on solid ground right now, but health care issues must be addressed if it is to continue to be. But really only 3 options in that regard, 1( reitrees must pay more of the premium, 2(accept higher deductables (which has been tthe strategy the last few years or 3( increase the deductions for the guys still working.

But you know all that from being in the system.

Their once was a time nobody wanted to work for state because of the pay, so the pot was sweetened with all kinda of benefits, lots of off days, 25 year retirement, sick leave, BCBS etc. When I joined the fire dept in 1979 it was hard to make living, but that is no longer the case around here. Fire and police are viewed as semi professional now, and are well compensated. Those boys make good money, so I dunno how long new hires are gonna keep getting the same benefit package. I met several firefighters in the Bay area they made upwards of 6 figures. You know how well a guy lives in Alabama on 6 figures!

Under Gray (blackout) Davis, law enforcement and firefighters in California were granted a clause in the state pension allowing them to retire at age 50 at 90% salary. Law enforcement guys have a strong lobby in every state, and the fire service rides their coat tails. That clause is held up as the holy grail for all public safety employees in the country, our lobby fought and received the same in 2002 here in Alabama. In a nutshell police and fire are granted a extra 5 years of service meaing 25 years of service= 30 years in the system. We managed y’all one better by only needing 25 years of service and no minium age of 50.

We have guys that came to work at 20 or 21, eligible to retire at 90% by age 45 or 46. I told those young boys before I retired if they ever left the job they need to get checked out. But lets face it, a young mans job anyway. But one of the reasons I retired I feared they might change their mind and do away with the enhanced package (as they call it around here) LOL.

I have heard of “flex” schedule, but still ALOT of agencies don’t do much on Fridays, but then again that is also true in the private sector. Nobody works on Friday in this country anymore. The ones that do are in fast food, retail, or the poor lady they make come in and answer the phone while everyone else is on the golf course.

Has anyone here ever tried to get the cable guy to come out on Friday? Didja have any luck? LOL

Actually, the retirement formula is a bit more complicated than the simplistic 90% at age 45 or 46. Actually, that’s impossible considering the formula is 3% at 50.

I’m in the Miscellaneous category which will get me 2% at 55. Unfortunately, my first 10 years (under Pete Wilson) was 1.25% at age 60, so I’ll be getting a blended benefit.

Oh, and I don’t do golf and I’m on a regular 5/8/40 schedule. I do Disneyland!

 

[goofyjim]

All you right wingers and left wingers keep battling it out over simple ideology. I’ll stay a moderate and peacefully go about my life.

 

[TOME]

As I have been following the different post something keeps coming to my mind, namely, instead of discussing the “Hypocrisy” of either the “Left” or “Right” just how well do I know “Catholic” social teaching?

I have been around long enough to have been raised in a Democratic household (I grew up in Chicago), moved of to become a Republican (when I lived in an area with grass under my feet) was mugged and became conservative but now I face the toughest challange politically namely being Catholic.

One of the things I found most challanging was trying to apply the guidelines for voting provided by the bishops of America. However, Catholic social goes far beyond just those set of principles and I have found that I am really quite ignorant especially with the more recent writings of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI (included with this is our Holy Father’s writings as Cardinal Ratizenger).

I recently reread “Truth and Tolerance” and I think this work says a lot especially in regards to Catholic authority on all questions.
But, a few months back I was involved in a discussion on the death penalty and I became painfully aware of my ignorance of the writing of our Holy Father’s on all aspects of social justice.

During the pontificate of John Paul II, both he and Cardinal Ratizenger lead a determined fight against the worst points of “Liberation Theology”. Throughout all their writings, especially Benedict XVI’s one point was constantly stressed that is for true change and conversion of society to occur, thus preparing the world for the coming of the Kingdom of God (which is God’s Activity not our’s - we can cooperate but it is not our’s) it is the individual that must experience a conversion of heart (metonia). Society can only change when each member of society himself is changed as mandated by Christ in Mark 4. I must disagree with whoever wrote that Matthew 25 refers to a collective responsibility. Perhaps taken alone this passage could be seen in the light of collective responsibility, however, this passage cannot be so isolated so as not to be understood by all of the passages in Matthew prior to Matthew 25 in regards to each person’s individual responsibility to respond to the presence of the Kingdom of God when one perceives it. Nor can Matthew 25 be isolated from Luke and the parable of the Good Samaritan whose message is quite clear - for a Christian the question is not who is my neighbor but I must I me the “Neighbor” to all who I meet. (I refer you to Benedict XVI’s “Jesus of Nazareth” for what I believe is the best explanation of this parable). And Mathew 25 cannot be understood in isolation of 1 John or all the letters of the New Testament.

But this brings me back again to the writings of Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI in regards to social teachings of the Church. What are they telling us should be our starting point not only for judging the moal nature of any political action but more importantly the moral nature of our own life in the light of the New Testament as interpeted and taught by the Church. And doesn’t the truest and most effective moral authority come from a moral life lived and just spoken about in a forum such as this?

My post is a starting point however because of my life schedule I don’t know when I will be able to participate again - I just don’t want anyone to think I was throwing out some thoughts then walking away.

 

[BamaRider]

Actually, the retirement formula is a bit more complicated than the simplistic 90% at age 45 or 46. Actually, that’s impossible considering the formula is 3% at 50.

I was referring to Alabama. Here a pension is tax exempt from State, FICA, and medicare, but the the feds get a cut. A firefighter here, that works beyond his 25 years, is bascially working fulltime for an extra 10%, which in my mind is not good business, if they’re gonna pay ya 90% to stay home.

You get 2% of what at 55? Retirement eligiblity here is only tied into length of service, age is not a factor. Do 25 ya get a check.

If ya wanna know more better shoot it in PM, cause we’re off topic.

 

[goofyjim]

Outside of things such as abortion and other moral issues there is no one right way of doing things. I grow tired of stressing that there are varying opinions on the role of government in assisting the poor. As long as we defend the right to life first what does the rest of it matter?

 

[rlg94086]

Outside of things such as abortion and other moral issues there is no one right way of doing things. I grow tired of stressing that there are varying opinions on the role of government in assisting the poor. As long as we defend the right to life first what does the rest of it matter?

:clapping:

 

[vern_humphrey]

Outside of things such as abortion and other moral issues there is no one right way of doing things. I grow tired of stressing that there are varying opinions on the role of government in assisting the poor. As long as we defend the right to life first what does the rest of it matter?

You have an excellent point, Jim. But while the right to life must always come first, we do have a duty to help those who can’t help themselves.

And that is the whole point I have tried to make over and over, we have a duty to help. There are two parts to that message:

1. We. That’s us. Every one of us has an obligation to do all we can. And we don’t get constructive credit for saying someone else should do it.
2. ** Help.** We have to do what works. Grandiose multibillion dollar schemes that result in people permanently mired in poverty – however well-intentioned they may be – are wrong. To fail to monitor what we are doing and correct errors is a sin.

 

[Michaeljc4]

The perfect is the enemy of the good. I realize that in the hierarchy of justice issues (for lack of a better term), life issues come first. With that said, there is much that can be done to help those in need, whether it’s personally or governmentally. I sometimes get the sense that conservative Catholics are frozen in place by their inability to end abortion. Keep at it, folks…just do the other work that needs doing, too, because there is an awful lot of it to be done.

I have to admit, I didn’t read all 25 pages before posting this, so if I’m repeating what’s already been said, my apologies.

 

[Ender]

I sometimes get the sense that conservative Catholics are frozen in place by their inability to end abortion. Keep at it, folks…just do the other work that needs doing, too, because there is an awful lot of it to be done.

Don’t make the assumption that because someone disagrees with your solution they don’t care about solving the problem. It is not a preoccupation with abortion that keeps conservatives from supporting liberal solutions to poverty, crime, education, immigration et al. There are two different views of human nature that collide and those differences cause their adherents to support vastly different solutions to problems we would all like to see resolved.

Ender

 

[Michaeljc4]

I didn’t postulate a solution, Ender, liberal or conservative. I simply stated that, in my observations, the focus on life issues–and the inability to solve them to the satisfaction of conservative Catholics–seems to take the wind of out people’s sails with regard to social justice issues.

Peace, friend.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I didn’t postulate a solution, Ender, liberal or conservative. I simply stated that, in my observations, the focus on life issues–and the inability to solve them to the satisfaction of conservative Catholics–seems to take the wind of out people’s sails with regard to social justice issues.

Peace, friend.

**Social Justice Some Definitions **

ecatholic2000.com/sj/socjust.shtml

In order to define social justice, let us begin, by taking a look at what social ministry is:

Social Ministry has two main aspects: social service (also known as Parish Outreach) and social action

Social Service is giving direct aid to someone in need. It usually involves performing one or more of the corporal works of mercy. That is, giving alms to the poor, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick or imprisoned, taking care of orphans and widows, visiting the shut-ins etc. Another name for it is charity.

Social Action is correcting the structures that perpetuate the need. Another name for this is Social Justice. Through the lens of social justice, we begin to take a look at the problems and issues facing us in our own communities, the nation and finally the world, and we begin to ask questions such as, “Why is there so much unemployment in our area?” “Why are there so many poor in our community?” “How will the deforestation of our rain forests affect our global climate?” etc. Very often when you are performing social service, you also become involved in solving the problem which created the need in the first place, and the two are closely related and often blend together. An example of this would be, someone comes to your food pantry, and tells you he/she has no food, because he/she lost their job recently. You may know of an employer looking to hire someone right away for a job requiring little or no skills. You give that person food, then place that person in touch with the employer. You then would have solved both problems for that person. (a) the immediate need of food through an act of charity (social service) and (b) you would have corrected the problem which created and perpetuated the need. (social justice)

Bearing these definitions in mind, please name a social justice program (as opposed to a charity program.)

 

[Nino]

Jesus said the poor you will always have with you…the left cares less about the ‘poor’ and disease etc…for they caused it all anyway…in america we have the results of nafta which has resulted in the loss of millions of jobs and an invasion of our kitchens and play rooms with poisoned junk! The left hates we common folks…we are only good for fighting their no win war…hooray for the military industrial complex as they go marching off to the bank. Its the left that always takes care of its own…notice at Nurenberg it was Al.Spear who got away with murder…had a fun time in 'prison’with his homosexual buddies,came out looking fresh and healthy and writes a book about his experiences…now we have McCain the darling of the demon forces in control…the childish debate tween the harvard grad and the humble wife of …is an act to make the hero look good…its not a given tho…we who have voted for the lesser of two evils for years now say…enough already…Nino

 

[Michaeljc4]

I’m not sure what you are asking me, Vern. Social service (feeding the poor) leads to social action (helping the poor become less poor) which is viewed through the ‘lens of social justice’ (asking why so many are poor to begin with). Right? Or is helping someone get a job (to use the example you offered) enough, rather than asking why so many may be jobless to begin with, and advocating for change to solve the larger issue?

Is helping the individual enough, or does social justice require that we try and address the forces that lead to the need for charity?

 

[goofyjim]

Jesus said the poor you will always have with you…the left cares less about the ‘poor’ and disease etc…for they caused it all anyway…in america we have the results of nafta which has resulted in the loss of millions of jobs and an invasion of our kitchens and play rooms with poisoned junk! The left hates we common folks…we are only good for fighting their no win war…hooray for the military industrial complex as they go marching off to the bank. Its the left that always takes care of its own…notice at Nurenberg it was Al.Spear who got away with murder…had a fun time in 'prison’with his homosexual buddies,came out looking fresh and healthy and writes a book about his experiences…now we have McCain the darling of the demon forces in control…the childish debate tween the harvard grad and the humble wife of …is an act to make the hero look good…its not a given tho…we who have voted for the lesser of two evils for years now say…enough already…Nino

I don’t think that’s a fair accusation. The right aren’ really any more concerned about the poor than the left if you look at it that way. The poor are caught in the middle between two warring factions who just want to put forth their ideologies. This is why I reiterate that hypocrisy can come from the right and the left. Neither side is so innocent s they would the public to believe.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I’m not sure what you are asking me, Vern. Social service (feeding the poor) leads to social action (helping the poor become less poor) which is viewed through the ‘lens of social justice’ (asking why so many are poor to begin with). Right? Or is helping someone get a job (to use the example you offered) enough, rather than asking why so many may be jobless to begin with, and advocating for change to solve the larger issue?

Is helping the individual enough, or does social justice require that we try and address the forces that lead to the need for charity?

I beleive that the latter would be more benefical to everyone as a whole. I think it can be summed up as:

Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to a fish, he eats for a lifetime.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Jesus said the poor you will always have with you…the left cares less about the ‘poor’ and disease etc…for they caused it all anyway…in america we have the results of nafta which has resulted in the loss of millions of jobs and an invasion of our kitchens and play rooms with poisoned junk! The left hates we common folks…we are only good for fighting their no win war…hooray for the military industrial complex as they go marching off to the bank. Its the left that always takes care of its own…notice at Nurenberg it was Al.Spear who got away with murder…had a fun time in 'prison’with his homosexual buddies,came out looking fresh and healthy and writes a book about his experiences…now we have McCain the darling of the demon forces in control…the childish debate tween the harvard grad and the humble wife of …is an act to make the hero look good…its not a given tho…we who have voted for the lesser of two evils for years now say…enough already…Nino

“The left” is not the ideology that calls for an unregulated trade between nations, that is a right-wing stance.

“The left” has traditionally stood in opposition to the military-industrial complex; the right supports and wants to expand it.

Of course, if one is so far to the right that radio telescope is needed to see Rush Limbaugh or Michael Weiner (aka Michael Savage), then everything will appear to be of “the left.”

 

[Michaeljc4]

Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to a fish, he eats for a lifetime.

Ask where all the fish have gone, and they call you a liberal.