Hysterectomy

[Ron_Conte]

They are not my definitions. They are the Church’s.

If she does not want to opt for periodic continence, she can opt for complete continence.

What she cannot do is opt to contravene the moral law.

She asked for the Catholic teaching on the matter. That is the answer that has been given.

I disagree. I don’t believe that the answers given in several posts above by 1ke are the Church’s definitions or the Church’s teachings or the Church’s answers. They are the answers of a person posting under the name ‘1ke’. Those answers are stated in an emphatic pseudo-authoritative manner, but without a sound theological argument. And, as I explained above, 1ke’s interpretation of that document from the CDF does not take into account, or even mention, the Church’s teaching in Vertitatis Splendor on the three fonts of morality.

My answers above are my theological opinion based on the teachings of Veritatis Splendor on the basic principles of morality. I offer a theological argument to support my opinion.

 

[Ron_Conte]

The typical use statistics include spacers, those with no serious reason to avoid. In such cases, there are often instances when the couple abadons the method-- i.e. “taking a chance” on days they know they are fertile.

Actually, studies on the percent effectiveness of NFP are based on correct use. If a pregnancy occurs, the researchers first determine whether the couple used the method correctly. If they did not, then the pregnancy does not count against the effectiveness of the method. There are meaningful statistics on the effectiveness of all the different methods of NFP. The Standard Days Method (cycle beads) is about. 95% effective with correct use. The Sympto-thermal method is about 99% effective.

 

[Ron_Conte]

It may not be removed to prevent pregnancy or while there is no immediate threat to her. That is clear teaching of the Church. That you don’t like what the Church teaches is irrelevant.

She can talk to 100 priests and the Pope. It won’t change the answer to her question.

I think that you are misstating Church teaching. I don’t believe that there is any principle of morality in the teaching of the Church requiring that the threat to health or life be immediate. That is your interpretation of a document from the CDF. It is not necessarily true that, if 1ke says that an idea or a conclusion is Church teaching, that talking to 100 priests or the Pope will not present a different and more insightful answer, with a different conclusion. It is absurd for an anonymous poster to claim that his or her answers are definitive Church teaching and that the Pope himself would not give a different answer.

The quote above sounds very emphatic and authoritative, but in my theological opinion is not actually the teaching of the Church. A person posting under the name 1ke claims that one idea or another is Church teaching, but without offering a theological argument. I also notice that 1ke’s posts confuse the fonts of morality. The reason or purpose of an act is the font called intention. But whether or not an act is intrinsically evil and always immoral, whether or not an act is direct sterilization, depends on the moral object, not the intention.

So a hysterectomy which has a directly therapeutic character has a good moral object. The intention must also be good, and the reasonably anticipated good consequences must outweigh the bad. If so, then all three fonts of morality are good, and the act is morally licit (but not necessarily medically recommended).

 

[jenniferlj77]

A hysterectomy is only considered licit when it is presenting an *immediate *danger to the woman. The OP has not indicated that her uterus is *currently *causing any problem at all.

See the following document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It covers this point explicitly:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_31071994_uterine-isolation_en.html

Most likely, my uterus is currently causing a problem. The only problem is that we can not prove that undeniably until the time of birth. An ultrasound at 20 weeks could prove it, however, more than often it is undetectable. Any Dr. would assume this with my history. Because of the adhesions on my utrus due to 3 past c-sections, d&c’s and asherman’s syndrome the plaecenta attaches to scar tissue. Then it adheres and grows in to the wall of the uterus and potentially through it to other organs. My uterus is not causing me immediate danger. However, at the birth of this child it will. That’s not a maybe, it’s a fact, barring any miracles. In order to perserve my fertility, as mentioned before, I received 2 units of blood and a balloon along with 24 hours of morphine. The question is not will it cause harm, I will bleed and they will have to stuff me with guaze or take some other measures to stop the bleeding. The question is, at what point do I agree with the Dr. that the uterus NEEDS to come out. I think that is a very subjective question.

 

[baltobetsy]

Perhaps you could ask yourself these questions to help you see the situation clearly:

If it happened (never mind how) that you never got pregnant again, would your uterus cause you health problems?

or

Are the problems caused by your uterus always in the course of pregnancy and delivery?

In the first case, a hysterectomy would be needed to preserve your health, without question. Sterility would be secondary.

In the second case, the hysterectomy would be primarily to prevent the dangers inherent with pregnancy, and would therefore constitute direct sterilization.

Does this help?

Betsy

 

[tweetymom]

Most likely, my uterus is currently causing a problem. The only problem is that we can not prove that undeniably until the time of birth. An ultrasound at 20 weeks could prove it, however, more than often it is undetectable. Any Dr. would assume this with my history. Because of the adhesions on my utrus due to 3 past c-sections, d&c’s and asherman’s syndrome the plaecenta attaches to scar tissue. Then it adheres and grows in to the wall of the uterus and potentially through it to other organs. My uterus is not causing me immediate danger. However, at the birth of this child it will. That’s not a maybe, it’s a fact, barring any miracles. In order to perserve my fertility, as mentioned before, I received 2 units of blood and a balloon along with 24 hours of morphine. The question is not will it cause harm, I will bleed and they will have to stuff me with guaze or take some other measures to stop the bleeding. The question is, at what point do I agree with the Dr. that the uterus NEEDS to come out. I think that is a very subjective question.

My advice to you is if the Dr says you need a hysterecomy, you should listen. Dr’s do not onthe whole recommend surgery just to do surgery, in spite of what some folks might say. I myself had to have one at the age of 24 and I am now 71 and have never regretted one day that I had the hysterecomy. Very nice not bleeding all the time and in pain. God Bless you in your decission:thumbsup:

 

[mommamaree]

Most likely, my uterus is currently causing a problem. The only problem is that we can not prove that undeniably until the time of birth. An ultrasound at 20 weeks could prove it, however, more than often it is undetectable. Any Dr. would assume this with my history. Because of the adhesions on my utrus due to 3 past c-sections, d&c’s and asherman’s syndrome the plaecenta attaches to scar tissue. Then it adheres and grows in to the wall of the uterus and potentially through it to other organs. My uterus is not causing me immediate danger. However, at the birth of this child it will. That’s not a maybe, it’s a fact, barring any miracles. In order to perserve my fertility, as mentioned before, I received 2 units of blood and a balloon along with 24 hours of morphine. The question is not will it cause harm, I will bleed and they will have to stuff me with guaze or take some other measures to stop the bleeding. The question is, at what point do I agree with the Dr. that the uterus NEEDS to come out. I think that is a very subjective question.

Jennifer,
Oh my, you have experienced so much suffering. I am afraid for you. You have been close to death before, and have indications that the same can be expected in the future. If your doctor is asking you to consider a hysterectomy this time around, then it must be serious. Doctors don’t just advise people to remove organs on a whim. If they have to work so hard to keep you from dying from blood loss, how is that anything but an immediate threat when that happens? You needed a blood transfusion and serious pain medication and extraordinary measures last time. Have you spoken with your priest about this yet? Please go to him and share your medical history and allow him to guide you on the morality of your choices. What about your husband, what does he think you should do? I can’t imagine him having no opinion on a life-or-death situation. I agree wholeheartedly with Ron Conte’s posts (I have never been able to say that before! ), regarding the morality of the options. For what it is worth, though, I am fresh out of RCIA and newly confirmed, and have no theological background. But my family history has acquainted me with this issue. My mother-in-law had to have a hysterectomy in order to preserve her health after she had a difficult breech birth and then two miscarriages with lots of bleeding during menstruation. My mother had to have a hysterectomy because she had widespread abdominal pain that increased to debilitating levels during her period, as well as copious bleeding. My cousin had 14 miscarriages before agreeing to a hysterectomy. My sister is facing the possibility of needing a hysterectomy, due to disease. None of these women faced the severity of your situation, and they all grieved because they so wanted to have more babies, but their uterus had become diseased and damaged. So, while I have no theological training, I do understand the health and wellbeing side of the situation. It seems to me that if your priest agrees it is morally licit and your doctor is advising that you do it, then it would be at your discretion to act on their advice. Offering up a prayer for you right now that you find the answers you need and that you have peace with whatever decision you and your husband come to…

 

[tweetymom]

Jennifer,
Oh my, you have experienced so much suffering. I am afraid for you. You have been close to death before, and have indications that the same can be expected in the future. If your doctor is asking you to consider a hysterectomy this time around, then it must be serious. Doctors don’t just advise people to remove organs on a whim. If they have to work so hard to keep you from dying from blood loss, how is that anything but an immediate threat when that happens? You needed a blood transfusion and serious pain medication and extraordinary measures last time. Have you spoken with your priest about this yet? Please go to him and share your medical history and allow him to guide you on the morality of your choices. What about your husband, what does he think you should do? I can’t imagine him having no opinion on a life-or-death situation. I agree wholeheartedly with Ron Conte’s posts (I have never been able to say that before! ), regarding the morality of the options. For what it is worth, though, I am fresh out of RCIA and newly confirmed, and have no theological background. But my family history has acquainted me with this issue. My mother-in-law had to have a hysterectomy in order to preserve her health after she had a difficult breech birth and then two miscarriages with lots of bleeding during menstruation. My mother had to have a hysterectomy because she had widespread abdominal pain that increased to debilitating levels during her period, as well as copious bleeding. My cousin had 14 miscarriages before agreeing to a hysterectomy. My sister is facing the possibility of needing a hysterectomy, due to disease. None of these women faced the severity of your situation, and they all grieved because they so wanted to have more babies, but their uterus had become diseased and damaged. So, while I have no theological training, I do understand the health and wellbeing side of the situation. It seems to me that if your priest agrees it is morally licit and your doctor is advising that you do it, then it would be at your discretion to act on their advice. Offering up a prayer for you right now that you find the answers you need and that you have peace with whatever decision you and your husband come to…

Right on and prayers are with you!!!

 

[Jea9]

Most likely, my uterus is currently causing a problem. The only problem is that we can not prove that undeniably until the time of birth. An ultrasound at 20 weeks could prove it, however, more than often it is undetectable. Any Dr. would assume this with my history. Because of the adhesions on my utrus due to 3 past c-sections, d&c’s and asherman’s syndrome the plaecenta attaches to scar tissue. Then it adheres and grows in to the wall of the uterus and potentially through it to other organs. My uterus is not causing me immediate danger. However, at the birth of this child it will. That’s not a maybe, it’s a fact, barring any miracles. In order to perserve my fertility, as mentioned before, I received 2 units of blood and a balloon along with 24 hours of morphine. The question is not will it cause harm, I will bleed and they will have to stuff me with guaze or take some other measures to stop the bleeding. The question is, at what point do I agree with the Dr. that the uterus NEEDS to come out. I think that is a very subjective question.

This is certainly an emotionally charged topic, and people are responding with emotions. 1ke is giving you correct information, however I think you might be misconstruing it in that you think that she is being exceptionally hard on you. She has told you that if, after delivery, it requires those same, extraordinary life saving measures as it did the last time, you are NOT required to keep your uterus. You may licitly have a hysterectomy to save your life. The only reason that it would not be morally licit is if you are NOT pregnant and NOT having any current, life endangering problems…if that were the case you would be sterilizing yourself and that WOULD be gravely sinful. That is not the situation you are in right now, you are currently pregnant and with delivery there is a high probability that you will experience problems that will result in the need for either a hysterectomy or extraordinary life saving measures. Morally speaking, you are on safe ground with a hysterectomy.

For what it’s worth, the posters who are giving you (bad) information regarding NFP are not helping you. Sure, it would be tough, but I can think of one poster on here that has used conservative means of NFP to prevent pregnancy for TEN+ years. You can look up some of her posts, kage_ar, she has grave reasons not to get pregnant again, and so it IS possible.

At 24, with no children, because of severe pain, cramping, and too frequent periods it was suggested by two doctors to have a hysterectomy. So for those of you who say that doctors “would not” suggest removing an organ unless it is absolutely necessary, please don’t make sweeping generalizations like that as it is potentially harmful. Oh, and by the way, I’m 28 now, whatever the problem was cleared up (after stopping hormone treatments that were intended to fix it) and I am now pregnant with my first baby. Whenever a doctor suggests major surgery, it is wise to get multiple opinions, which the OP has done so that comment is not directed at her.

 

[JohnCS]

This is certainly an emotionally charged topic, and people are responding with emotions. 1ke is giving you correct information, however I think you might be misconstruing it in that you think that she is being exceptionally hard on you. She has told you that if, after delivery, it requires those same, extraordinary life saving measures as it did the last time, you are NOT required to keep your uterus. You may licitly have a hysterectomy to save your life. The only reason that it would not be morally licit is if you are NOT pregnant and NOT having any current, life endangering problems…if that were the case you would be sterilizing yourself and that WOULD be gravely sinful. That is not the situation you are in right now, you are currently pregnant and with delivery there is a high probability that you will experience problems that will result in the need for either a hysterectomy or extraordinary life saving measures. Morally speaking, you are on safe ground with a hysterectomy.

For what it’s worth, the posters who are giving you (bad) information regarding NFP are not helping you. Sure, it would be tough, but I can think of one poster on here that has used conservative means of NFP to prevent pregnancy for TEN+ years. You can look up some of her posts, kage_ar, she has grave reasons not to get pregnant again, and so it IS possible.

At 24, with no children, because of severe pain, cramping, and too frequent periods it was suggested by two doctors to have a hysterectomy. So for those of you who say that doctors “would not” suggest removing an organ unless it is absolutely necessary, please don’t make sweeping generalizations like that as it is potentially harmful. Oh, and by the way, I’m 28 now, whatever the problem was cleared up (after stopping hormone treatments that were intended to fix it) and I am now pregnant with my first baby. Whenever a doctor suggests major surgery, it is wise to get multiple opinions, which the OP has done so that comment is not directed at her.

Well said! After my wife’s last miscarriage (her 2nd) the doctors offered her 3 or 4 options, all of them had to do with permenant or temporary sterilization. Because they said it would probably be unsafe to become pregnant again with out about a year to heal up. We asked why we just can’t abstain from sex instead of medical procedures, and they looked at us like we were aliens… OP, no one knows your heart besides you and God. Using what you learned from the “ask an apologist” reply, ask your self this question: Am I getting a hysterectomy because I need it to stay alive, or am I getting a hysterectomy so that I can continue to have sexual relations with my husband without the dangers of pregnancy/complications. I think that is what it all comes down to. God knows what is in your heart. God bless

 

[JohnCS]

My advice to you is if the Dr says you need a hysterecomy, you should listen. Dr’s do not onthe whole recommend surgery just to do surgery, in spite of what some folks might say. I myself had to have one at the age of 24 and I am now 71 and have never regretted one day that I had the hysterecomy. Very nice not bleeding all the time and in pain. God Bless you in your decission:thumbsup:

With all due respect, I do not know your situation so I do not know the circumstances of your hysterectomy, and honestly I don’t care, however, your not regretting something has no bearing on whether or not it is right/good. There are woman out that that say the same thing about abortions they have had and that definately does not make it okay to have an abortion.

 

[paperwight]

So. to summarise :

1. The Church teaches that to remove a healthy organ is mutilating the body, and is wrong.
2. A healthy organ can be defined as one that fulfils the purpose for which it exists - in the case of a uterus, to provide a safe and effective environment for the unborn baby to grow, until and including the process of delivery, and the survival of the mother.

3.In a case such as the OP’s, the uterus does not provide this safe environment, and is therefore not fulfilling its purpose.

1. Removing the uterus in such a case is therefore permitted. It is not mutilation, as the organ is not healthy.

 

[tweetymom]

With all due respect, I do not know your situation so I do not know the circumstances of your hysterectomy, and honestly I don’t care, however, your not regretting something has no bearing on whether or not it is right/good. There are woman out that that say the same thing about abortions they have had and that definately does not make it okay to have an abortion.

You know what? I do not believe I said a word about an abortion. I really do not care if you care or not. I do not regret it for one moment. Do you think constant pain and stage 1 cancer and continual bleeding makes it right? You reall need to pray/

 

[Julianna]

So. to summarise :

1. The Church teaches that to remove a healthy organ is mutilating the body, and is wrong.
2. A healthy organ can be defined as one that fulfils the purpose for which it exists - in the case of a uterus, to provide a safe and effective environment for the unborn baby to grow, until and including the process of delivery, and the survival of the mother.

3.In a case such as the OP’s, the uterus does not provide this safe environment, and is therefore not fulfilling its purpose.

1. Removing the uterus in such a case is therefore permitted. It is not mutilation, as the organ is not healthy.

Makes perfect sense to me and that is basically what my doctor told me and I had a hysterectomy 21 yrs ago and don’t regret it.

 

[Julianna]

You know what? I do not believe I said a word about an abortion. I really do not care if you care or not. I do not regret it for one moment. Do you think constant pain and stage 1 cancer and continual bleeding makes it right? You reall need to pray/

WTG tweetymom. I was thinking the same thing. I still find it odd that no man can ever know the pain of a woman’s reproduction system, but can comment on it ad nauseum. No, you did not mention abortion, but what a nice segway…when there is nothing left to add to the conversation.

To the OP, get a second opinion…talk to your priest. If you are still fearful, as you should be…after all the trauma you have been through…think of the innocent life that will have to go through it with you. I believe the hard liners have misinterpreted your first post. Sometimes when we are so fearful we say what comes to mind…this is a medical situation that needs a resolution, for yourself and for your family. Peace be with you.

 

[tweetymom]

WTG tweetymom. I was thinking the same thing. I still find it odd that no man can ever know the pain of a woman’s reproduction system, but can comment on it ad nauseum. No, you did not mention abortion, but what a nice segway…when there is nothing left to add to the conversation.

To the OP, get a second opinion…talk to your priest. If you are still fearful, as you should be…after all the trauma you have been through…think of the innocent life that will have to go through it with you. I believe the hard liners have misinterpreted your first post. Sometimes when we are so fearful we say what comes to mind…this is a medical situation that needs a resolution, for yourself and for your family. Peace be with you.

Thank you Julianne, Yea it is too bad a man cannot know the pain nor the fear one goes thru with all of this. If they did they would be crying out of the other side of their mouths.

 

[Jea9]

WTG tweetymom. I was thinking the same thing. I still find it odd that no man can ever know the pain of a woman’s reproduction system, but can comment on it ad nauseum. No, you did not mention abortion, but what a nice segway…when there is nothing left to add to the conversation.
.

Thank you Julianne, Yea it is too bad a man cannot know the pain nor the fear one goes thru with all of this. If they did they would be crying out of the other side of their mouths.

These comments are ridiculous. It does not help the OP with her problem. You are both getting defensive of your OWN choices to have hysterectomies, which may or may not have been morally licit (I don’t know, I’m not making comment on that as it doesn’t really pertain to the conversation, which I’m pretty sure was the point that JohnCS was making). The OP asked what Catholic teaching was on the subject, she was given an answer. The two of you seem to think that the medical field’s opinion trumps Holy Mother Church, which I suppose is fine for you, but it is not OK to 1) give that advice to another making it seem as though A priest will back her up or 2) attack those that have differing opinions than you do and are giving genuine Catholic teaching. In 1ke’s case, with specific documentation. And in the case of others, simply because they are men.

Again, the OP was told Church teaching. She is a difficult position with her health and we need not add hurting her spiritual health to the mix. She may have a hysterectomy to remove the uterus if it will require extraordinary measures to save at the time of her child’s birth. She may NOT later decide that she wants to have a hysterectomy to remove the chances of having another child. I, personally, do not think that her OB would allow her to be closed up after a c-section only to, potentially months later, re-open her for a hysterectomy. Especially if she is using the same OB that she had with her last birth. So I really think the question is moot because if she has a hysterectomy it will mostly likely coincide with her c-section.

 

[tweetymom]

These comments are ridiculous. It does not help the OP with her problem. You are both getting defensive of your OWN choices to have hysterectomies, which may or may not have been morally licit (I don’t know, I’m not making comment on that as it doesn’t really pertain to the conversation, which I’m pretty sure was the point that JohnCS was making). The OP asked what Catholic teaching was on the subject, she was given an answer. The two of you seem to think that the medical field’s opinion trumps Holy Mother Church, which I suppose is fine for you, but it is not OK to 1) give that advice to another making it seem as though A priest will back her up or 2) attack those that have differing opinions than you do and are giving genuine Catholic teaching. In 1ke’s case, with specific documentation. And in the case of others, simply because they are men.

Again, the OP was told Church teaching. She is a difficult position with her health and we need not add hurting her spiritual health to the mix. She may have a hysterectomy to remove the uterus if it will require extraordinary measures to save at the time of her child’s birth. She may NOT later decide that she wants to have a hysterectomy to remove the chances of having another child. I, personally, do not think that her OB would allow her to be closed up after a c-section only to, potentially months later, re-open her for a hysterectomy. Especially if she is using the same OB that she had with her last birth. So I really think the question is moot because if she has a hysterectomy it will mostly likely coincide with her c-section.

You are so kind and charitale like you should be? I read her post and was just answering her. If you do not like it don’t read it.

 

[Jea9]

You are so kind and charitale like you should be? I read her post and was just answering her. If you do not like it don’t read it.

I am certainly not always as kind and charitable as I should be, and I apologize for those times. I, however, do not think I was being uncharitable at this time.

My advice to you is if the Dr says you need a hysterecomy, you should listen. Dr’s do not onthe whole recommend surgery just to do surgery, in spite of what some folks might say. I myself had to have one at the age of 24 and I am now 71 and have never regretted one day that I had the hysterecomy. Very nice not bleeding all the time and in pain. God Bless you in your decission:thumbsup:

Do you not see the harm in potentially leading someone AGAINST Church teaching and INTO mortal sin? Maybe that is not what you meant, but you seem to be disagreeing with those that have said that if for the purpose of sterilization, a hysterectomy is not morally licit. Am I reading your posts wrong?

 

[tweetymom]

I am certainly not always as kind and charitable as I should be, and I apologize for those times. I, however, do not think I was being uncharitable at this time.

Do you not see the harm in potentially leading someone AGAINST Church teaching and INTO mortal sin? Maybe that is not what you meant, but you seem to be disagreeing with those that have said that if for the purpose of sterilization, a hysterectomy is not morally licit. Am I reading your posts wrong?

I was not leading anyone into mortal sin. You are very rude and yes uncharitable. She did not state that it was only for sterilization. I was trying to be comforting and share my feelings. I had to have a hysterctomy, no choice,

Yes you are so wrtong a a bit self righteous.