Obedience is a real and important issue. There are definitely people (gay and straight, lay and clergy) who want to subvert the Magisterium and change many of these moral teachings.
Good point - how many straight priests want marriage for priests, women priests, communion for the divorced, etc. - I say this just for an abstract broader perspective here, not pointing fingers at all.
One more thought and I am done on this thread (I suspect someone else has made this point but it is an important one).
Whenever celibacy is involved, dealing with one’s sexuality – whether gay, straight or otherwise – is a big issue, one that candidates for priesthood and religious vows work through during formation and over the course of their lifetimes after ordination/vows. Dealing with celibacy is a crucial aspect of self-sacrifice and of service to others. You don’t just push the issue to one side because you’ve decided to be celibate, any more than a married person ignores their sexual attraction to other people just because they promise life-long fidelity to their spouse. Dealing with chastity is part of the hard work of priesthood and religious life, just as it is part of the hard work and marriage.
These conditions are related to living in a culture that is opposite of their inclinations, and in many cases hostile to it. You will find the same and higher statistics in any minority group that resides in a counter-culture that is hostile.
For some people it is a form of arrested development. I agree with what you and others have noted about the narcissism. One of the things that has always bothered me about the gay movement is that people identify themselves first by their sexuality. Should we not all be identifying ourselves first by our relationship with Christ, and His Church?
Oh I agree, a vow of chastity is a huge commitment and struggle. What I am saying is that once someone has committed to that, I don’t think the focus should be on ‘accepting how important one’s sexuality is as a part of oneself.’ If a straight priest or nun said this to me, my first question would be, well, why are you a priest, nun? So…that is my first question to a gay priest who says this. The tough work of overcoming temptation is not the same tough work of affirming the importance of one’s sexuality as a part of oneself. You are going to end up in different places too - once you have finished this work.
Thanks for explaining.
Right. And the larger issue here is often that the discernment to the priesthood is not well-founded; it’s tied up with this struggle, with resolving it.
The various mental issues that homosexuals often endure is not due to their culture. Even in countries that are open to and celebrate homosexuality, homosexuals are still committing suicide in high numbers. One study found that 73% of psychiatrists say that homosexuals are more unhappy than the average person, and of those psychiatrists, 70% said it was not due to social stigmatization.
The culture is narcissistic, therefore the proliferation of lifestyles that in the distant past would have been seen as selfish or prideful. I have been around enough narcissists to wonder if it is not a spreading disease. The funny part is when two basically selfish people get together, like whose whims are going to prevail? I happen to be watching such a show right now.
Your assessment of this issue is rather simplistic. Even in countries that are overall more open now to LGBT people, that is usually much more true of urban areas or certain classes of people. Rural areas even in a place like Denmark or Sweden, for example, or the South in the US out of the big cities like Atlanta, are not all that welcoming or friendly towards LGBT people. Many areas of the US, for example, are still dominated by religious conservatives. Most of my staunch Baptist relatives, for example, are still very hostile towards gay people. Gay kids still get bullied, and probably more so in certain parts of the country.
Most gay people probably feel rejected by organized religion and have stopped attending any church a long time ago. It is only in the last decade or two that a few churches have become more welcoming. So I doubt that most LGBT attend any church and would therefore be unlikely to identify themselves by a religion first.
Yes - I agree with you. Some of the reports I’ve read (and there aren’t many scholarly treatments) find that many of these victims were prepubescent too (over the 11 year range but not teen as of yet). Part of the problem is the way these offender priests were moved around and protected from being caught, makes it difficult to see the total extent of the problem. Some estimate the problem is actually worse than we know or that has been reported.
Why would someone ‘out’ a chaste gay priest? How would anyone even know if there is nothing in the closet? In a situation where the individual is genuinely in Christ, forsaking his sexuality and is ‘doing his job’ as a shepherd? There could be gay cliques, bullying, etc. I agree. Active vs. inactive.
)I can think of any number of scenarios where outing a chaste gay priest might occur, and without playing a “what if” game all day, I will give you one: for whatever reason, the priest counsels someone with SSA, and the individual is aware during the conversation (because the priest, in an attempt to show that chastity is neither impossible nor wrong) indicates he has lived chastely with the issue for years; the one seeking counseling rejects the Church’s position and in a fit of anger decides to “out” the priest.Why would someone ‘out’ a chaste gay priest? How would anyone even know if there is nothing in the closet? In a situation where the individual is genuinely in Christ, forsaking his sexuality and is ‘doing his job’ as a shepherd? There could be gay cliques, bullying, etc. I agree. Active vs. inactive.
If 25% are active and 15% chaste that makes 4 out of 10. 6 out of 10 straight. Of course, this is impossible to verify but my guess is that could be close - though the 25% active sounds high, a bit cynical, from my view - doesn’t match the vibe I’ve gotten in the Church over the last 15 years or so at all.
My guess is there has been gradual improvement in the last 10-15 years. I think a lot of the ‘subculture’ was much more the norm 20 or 30 years ago when the priesthood was more or less open as a safe haven, a gathering place for homosexual men, their sexuality being accepted or rejected. You mention the priest was older. I think the Church is trying to fix this where it is occurring. But we saw how long it took to sort out the scandals…same deal here.
And I agree clearing this out will open the way to more serious vocations. No brainer. (this is where neglect, pushing it under the rug hurts the Church) We have to be able to talk about this and rehabilitate the image of the priest. Can’t run from it - and I don’t think we are. (thread title aside
He could, but it would be like the Gerber baby advertising for abortion. He might not keep his pastoral duties too long.