I accept Birth Control, and that's not gonna change!

[Eden]

Well, considering how many people have responded, you can be assured that you have many prayers being said for you.

But since you have such close contact with the Church, being an RCIA teacher, don’t you have a confessor to discuss this with? Since you have such a solid certainty that it is not sinful for you to use contraception, why do you need the opinion of strangers as to whether or not you are Catholic?

I’m just trying to understand the reason for sharing this with everyone.

Also, I don’t know if you are familiar with the history of the 20th century contraception movement. Margaret Sanger is credited as being a pioneer in the creation of our current contraceptive and abortion-friendly culture. Her motives were racist and evil. It gives me chills to even think about an association with her movement and it’s aims:

ewtn.com/library/prolife/pp04a.txt

 

[corvidae]

Noma,

I think that perhaps you have a misunderstanding of what the Church means by simply a discipline.

For example, it was a discipline not to eat meat on Fridays,
It can change
Is eating meat bad? no
Is eating meat of Fridays bad? Yes, because the Church discipline states you should not.
Is it sinful to? YES
The Church stated that it was a grave sin.
Why?
Because it was a slap in the face to the authority of the Church
It was a sin of disobediance, not a sin of eating meat

So, even if contraception were purely a disciplinary matter, it could be and still is a mortal sin, if for no other reason than you are putting your own authority above that of the Church.

A lone Raven

 

[Denise_Shae]

I think you might be off. As I understand it, Latæ Sententiæ is a canonical penalty, which can change. It means you are excommunicated just for commiting the act and the Church does not have to go through the formality of excommunicating you. The Church as far is I know does not attach LS to contracepting.

On a somewhat related note: this is something to watch out for when a pro-abortionist brings up Pope Gregory vs Sixtus. All they were arguing about was what ecclesiastical crime was a person who aborted guilty of. They in no way said or even suggested abortion was a morally acceptable act.

Thanks Scott, that’s what threw me.

Do you know whether the Church has an official canon listing what acts LS would be applied to? (I try to avoid “gray areas” whenever possible)

God Bless!

 

[Scottgun]

Thanks Scott, that’s what threw me.

Do you know whether the Church has an official canon listing what acts LS would be applied to? (I try to avoid “gray areas” whenever possible)

God Bless!

I’m not aware of a list. The two I recall are desecrating the sacraments and assualting clergy.

 

[kresbrook]

I’m new at this posting thing, and wasn’t sure which buttons to use. I hope this ends up in the right spot.

Noma - I think your medical facts about the NFP not being able to prevent preganacy would be a big surprise the many many people who have used it for 20+ years and have never had a surpises pregnancy. Have you taken an NFP class or done a home study course? I would encourage you to give it a try, not in an attempt to force it’s use upon you, but so that you have a better understanding of it. What better way to make a decission than to understand both sides completely.

I can totally understand where you are coming from. We just started using NFP after contracepting for many years. Once I understood both sides, I could make no other choice than NFP. It has saved our marriage. And yes FilltheVoid, I did feel my husband was “using”. Nothing SHOWS me how much he loves me more than his willingness to abstain.

 

[StratusRose]

It doesn’t matter whether or not you think contraception is a sin or not. It is a sin, and that is a truth. Truth is something that is outside of ourselves, so for you to say it’s not a sin because I don’t think it is, is null and void. Most of our laws in the Church are determined by Natural Law. Natural Law cannot and will not change as long as we are humans. Contraception goes against Natural Law.

You cannot determine what truth is or isn’t. What if I said “I think it is not a sin to rape a woman.” Does that automatically make it a truth? No. This moral relativism that you participate with is very dangerous and the fact that you don’t realize contraception is a sin means that you have an ill-formed conscience. You should not be teaching RCIA, and you should not be receiving communion.

 

[prodigal-sun]

This has been troubling me somewhat also.

I don’t see what the problem is with Birth Control, am I forced to have a lot of children?

Why can’t I choose when and how many children I would like to have? Do you have to leave it all up to chance? What if a couple wanted to wait a few years before having children?

What if I had a child at the age of 40? I wouldn’t want to die when my child is only 20.

Haven’t you ever heard of Natural family planning?

Peace!

 

[spanky]

Because I do not believe that the Church’s teaching on contraception is a matter of faith and morals. I believe it to be a matter of discipline.

The celebacy of priests is also a matter of discpline. I believe it to be a matter of obedience. Granted, a very difficult one.

 

[mercygate]

The celebacy of priests is also a matter of discpline. I believe it to be a matter of obedience. Granted, a very difficult one.

Sorry, spanky. Clerical celibacy IS a discipline. The teaching on contraception is a function of the divine and natural moral law.

 

[prodigal-sun]

Noma,

I think that perhaps you have a misunderstanding of what the Church means by simply a discipline.

For example, it was a discipline not to eat meat on Fridays,
It can change
Is eating meat bad? no
Is eating meat of Fridays bad? Yes, because the Church discipline states you should not.
Is it sinful to? YES
The Church stated that it was a grave sin.
Why?
Because it was a slap in the face to the authority of the Church
It was a sin of disobediance, not a sin of eating meat

So, even if contraception were purely a disciplinary matter, it could be and still is a mortal sin, if for no other reason than you are putting your own authority above that of the Church.

A lone Raven

This is exactly correct! I’m glad someone finally brought this up! This is not only a contraception issue, it is also an issue of disobediance.

Noma, you have stated that you instruct the class what the church teaches about contraception and you let them know it is a mortal sin to not follow this teaching. YOu then turn around and disobey the church. I think an argument can be made for on grounds of culpability or ignorance of the sin. As an RCIA instructor I’m sure you understand the Grave matter of direct disobediance to the church!

By the way this argument of contraception being on a discipline does not fly.

As for your question of whether you are still catholic or should you seek another denomination of christianity… This in no way lessen your sin and culpability, besides, all of christiandom is catholic they just don’t know it yet!

Peace!

 

[spanky]

Sorry, spanky. Clerical celibacy IS a discipline. The teaching on contraception is a function of the divine and natural moral law.

OK. I’ll back off.

What really wanted to do is point out another Church discipline, celibacy of priests, and compare the consequences of disobeying it vs. disobeying the Church’s teaching on contraception (which I now understand is not a matter of displine). its a flawed comparison i guess.

 

[mercygate]

OK. I’ll back off.

What really wanted to do is point out another Church discipline, celibacy of priests, and compare the consequences of disobeying it vs. disobeying the Church’s teaching on contraception (which I now understand is not a matter of displine). its a flawed comparison i guess.

You’re getting warmer. But the teaching on contraception is not “another Church discipline,” it is doctrine.

Anyway: thanks. :tiphat:

 

[Denise_Shae]

I’m not aware of a list. The two I recall are desecrating the sacraments and assualting clergy.

Thank you.

LS and it’s application is something I’ve wondered about for a long time.

God Bless!

 

[corvidae]

You’re getting warmer. But the teaching on contraception is not “another Church discipline,” it is doctrine.

Anyway: thanks. :tiphat:

I think he was trying to point out that even if it is a church discipline, it is still a serious thing, and can still be a sin.

Basically showing the holes in the OP’s logic

A lone Raven

 

[prodigal-sun]

Hi Noma, here is what the Bishops conference says about this issue:

 "BALTIMORE -- The Catholic bishops of the United States overwhelmingly approved new documents yesterday, exhorting Catholics to refrain from using artificial birth control, describing gay sex as immoral, and saying that anyone who disagrees with key church teachings should not take Communion."

Whole documant can be found here: boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/11/15/bishops_stress_sexual_issues_and_warn_on_communion/

Now you know your responsibility in this matter! I hope and pray you make the right choice and come into full communion with the church.

Peace!

 

[mlldrl]

What method of ABC is the OP using?

 

[Denise_Shae]

Well, considering how many people have responded, you can be assured that you have many prayers being said for you.

But since you have such close contact with the Church, being an RCIA teacher, don’t you have a confessor to discuss this with? Since you have such a solid certainty that it is not sinful for you to use contraception, why do you need the opinion of strangers as to whether or not you are Catholic?

I’m just trying to understand the reason for sharing this with everyone.

Also, I don’t know if you are familiar with the history of the 20th century contraception movement. Margaret Sanger is credited as being a pioneer in the creation of our current contraceptive and abortion-friendly culture. Her motives were racist and evil. It gives me chills to even think about an association with her movement and it’s aims:

ewtn.com/library/prolife/pp04a.txt

I just read Sanger’s profile from your above link.

Her ideals fit right in with a book I’m in the middle of reading, called: “The Nazi Doctors: Medical Killing and the Psychology of Genocide.”, by; Robert Jay Lifton.

About a quarter of the book deals with mass sterilization of those who were considered to be of: “Inferior Race”, mentally challenged and physically weak.

It makes my blood run cold.

God Bless!

 

[marci]

I know that this is a very difficult topic with many people, but let me just say that there are many people who have problems with church teaching on contraception not because they are selfish, or don’t like being tied down, or whatever other worldly reasons one can come up with. I had four children in three years (one set of twins) right after we got married. I had to have c-sections with all of my pregnancies. The doctors said that it was a miracle that I was able to carry the last as long as I did. He wanted to tie my tubes right there in the operating room, but I refused. After that my husband, who is baptist, decided that since I wasn’t going to use any birth control that he was going to take matters in his own hands. He had a vasectomy, not because he was a selfish, tyrant
but because he feared for my saftey and the well being of the four children we already had. I did protest at first, but eventually decided the arguement wasn’t worth a divorce. I went to see a priest sometime after his surgery, because I felt so guilty about the whole thing, and was told that he wasn’t catholic so don’t worry about it. I’m not sure how to feel about that advice, but I went to confession with a sorrowful heart in good faith so I have given the matter over to God. I know what church teaching on BC is so there’s no point in arguing over it. Somehow I just have trouble accepting that God would rather see a woman’s life endangered, and her children grow up motherless. Before anyone says it, NO I wouldn’t have an abortion, even if carrying the baby to term would lead to my death. That would be murder.

By the way all of my children were conceived using NFP. I am known as “fertile mertle” Just to through out some controversy for good measure, if sin is determined not just by the act, but the intent behind the act (i.e. stealing a car because you want it vs. stealing bread to feed your starving family) isn’t the intent behind NFP the same as using a condom. In both instances the intention is to prevent pregnancy. I know all of the NFP stuff about sacrifice and giving of self to your spouse, and about how it is open to the possibility of life, but if NFP works as good as the advocates say it does, then when you have relations during non fertile period, you are saying “we will have relations now, because there is no way that it can lead to pregnancy.” For me personally, I can never reconcile this thinking with the forbidden use of barrier methods such as the condom. I know someone will say “but it leaves open the possibility of conception”, I am sure there are many people who found that possibility to exist with the use of a condom as well.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

In the interests of clarity, I just opened up a new thread, “Addressing FilltheVoid’s concerns on NFP”- so that Fill and others could go there from this thread. Hope to see you there later.

A link to this would’ve been helpful.

 

[rayne89]

This has been troubling me somewhat also.

I don’t see what the problem is with Birth Control, am I forced to have a lot of children?

Why can’t I choose when and how many children I would like to have? Do you have to leave it all up to chance? What if a couple wanted to wait a few years before having children?

What if I had a child at the age of 40? I wouldn’t want to die when my child is only 20.

I have very serious health problems that would make another pregnancy very dangerous for me. My husband and I have used NFP for 10 years in order to avoid pregnancy. If a couple has serious reasons for avoiding pregnancy they can use NFP to space their children-sometimes indefinately if the there is serious reason. No one is forced to have alot of children.

By the way my mom and dad adopted me when they were in their 40’s. I’m now 34 and my parents are alive and well and very much enjoy their now 11 year old grand daughter. Most 60 year olds do not exactly have one foot in the grave these days. My parents are in their 70’s and still live a very active life.