I accept Birth Control, and that's not gonna change!

[mary_bobo]

I would like to thank you all for your questions and discussion.

I am not prepared to change my personal beliefs about contraception, nor would any discussion in this forum cause me, nor could it cause me, to change these beliefs. The main reason for this is due to the fact that I am not willing, within the forum, to place my ideas out for the scrutiny of others. If I am to change my beliefs about contraception, it would be in private, between me and my pastor, my religious mentor, or a between me and a strong Catholic one on one.

But I will say that I have heard all the reasons you have presented and more, and remain unconvinced that contraception is intrinsically wrong.

I will also say that I may, based on one argument, revise my and my partner’s practice concerning contraception, or how I would approach it (my wife would not be open to removing contraception, though I would try), not because I think contraception is wrong, but simply out of respect for the Church, that I should respect it even when it teaches something that is not correct. It may in the end do me little harm to cease contraception, compared to the rewards of obeying the Church no matter what (as one would a father, even when sometimes he is wrong).

As for RCIA, I will finish up this year (as I am also a sponsor to one of the initiates), but may not return until I have resolved this dilemma.

As for considering myself Catholic, if one would answer that contracepting makes me non-Catholic, then that person would be wrong, to the point where whatever else they say should be taken with a grain of salt.

I am Catholic, and will be until the day I die. I also feel justified in calling myself Catholic. If someone asks me about contraception, I will kindly say “the Church teaches…” and if they ask what I personally believe, I will kindly state “I do not wish to say at this time what I believe concerning contraception.”

Thank you for the discussion. I opened this up because I wanted more perspectives to bring up with my friends and Priest. And after talking with a good Catholic mentor (my RCIA sponsor) I think I know what to do.

But I still do accept that contraception is morally neutral. And I don’t see changing my mind about it at this time or in the near future.

Again thank you all, the majority who were very respectful, and even the minority who were not as kind, but still, I am sure, had very good intentions in what they have said.

I will wander this post to reply to any further questions as they come, so long as they do not deal directly with the reasons I believe that contracepting is morally neutral.

With love in Christ.

I am not sure why you started this post if you are unwilling to hear the truth and accept it. You have your beliefs and if you are unwilling to change, as you have said, then why continue a discussion. No reason you can give to support contraception being morally neutral makes it so. Just be glad that you live in a time when NFP is so scientific and successful. Some of us had our kids when this was not the case.

May the Holy Spirit enlighten you. We on the forum have not been able to do that.

 

[mlldrl]

Whatever you do PLEASE don’t use the pill! Don’t have a hand in aborting your children. I never knew how evil the pill was until about a year ago. Now I have to deal with the idea that I have children in heaven who I never knew. This weighs heavy on my heart…please get off the pill.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[Veritas41]

Hi Veritas,

I’m glad you brought up the part I bolded, above.
I was wonding, would “Latæ Sententiæ” be applied here? (No longer in full communion with the Church?)
Or is my understanding of “Latæ Sententiæ” a bit off?

Thanks and God Bless!

I’m not sure if Latae Sententia applies here or not. It would definitely be mortal sin to be out of communion with the Church, but I don’t know if it involves latae sententiae. I think with that it is required to go through a bishop or a priest with granted authority to be received back into full communion with the Church (I’m going on memory here, so I’m not sure how accurate this is). I have heard this is the case with abortion, but I don’t know about contraception.

God bless you,

Joan

 

[Veritas41]

I just read Sanger’s profile from your above link.

Her ideals fit right in with a book I’m in the middle of reading, called: “The Nazi Doctors: Medical Killing and the Psychology of Genocide.”, by; Robert Jay Lifton.

About a quarter of the book deals with mass sterilization of those who were considered to be of: “Inferior Race”, mentally challenged and physically weak.

It makes my blood run cold.

God Bless!

There aren’t many people I use the word “evil” to describe, but Margaret Sanger is one of them. There are two good books written about her, *Grand Illusions: The Legacy of Planned Parenthood *by George Grant (Protestant) and *Margaret Sanger: Father of Modern Society *by Elasah Drogin (Catholic)

 

[Mannyfit75]

I would like to thank you all for your questions and discussion.

I am not prepared to change my personal beliefs about contraception, nor would any discussion in this forum cause me, nor could it cause me, to change these beliefs. The main reason for this is due to the fact that I am not willing, within the forum, to place my ideas out for the scrutiny of others. If I am to change my beliefs about contraception, it would be in private, between me and my pastor, my religious mentor, or a between me and a strong Catholic one on one.

But I will say that I have heard all the reasons you have presented and more, and remain unconvinced that contraception is intrinsically wrong.

I will also say that I may, based on one argument, revise my and my partner’s practice concerning contraception, or how I would approach it (my wife would not be open to removing contraception, though I would try), not because I think contraception is wrong, but simply out of respect for the Church, that I should respect it even when it teaches something that is not correct. It may in the end do me little harm to cease contraception, compared to the rewards of obeying the Church no matter what (as one would a father, even when sometimes he is wrong).

As for RCIA, I will finish up this year (as I am also a sponsor to one of the initiates), but may not return until I have resolved this dilemma.

As for considering myself Catholic, if one would answer that contracepting makes me non-Catholic, then that person would be wrong, to the point where whatever else they say should be taken with a grain of salt.

I am Catholic, and will be until the day I die. I also feel justified in calling myself Catholic. If someone asks me about contraception, I will kindly say “the Church teaches…” and if they ask what I personally believe, I will kindly state “I do not wish to say at this time what I believe concerning contraception.”

Thank you for the discussion. I opened this up because I wanted more perspectives to bring up with my friends and Priest. And after talking with a good Catholic mentor (my RCIA sponsor) I think I know what to do.

But I still do accept that contraception is morally neutral. And I don’t see changing my mind about it at this time or in the near future.

Again thank you all, the majority who were very respectful, and even the minority who were not as kind, but still, I am sure, had very good intentions in what they have said.

I will wander this post to reply to any further questions as they come, so long as they do not deal directly with the reasons I believe that contracepting is morally neutral.

With love in Christ.

In my personal opinion, I don’t think you should remain Catholic and leave. The Church doesn’t need Catholics who refuse to change their views regarding the moral teachings of the Church. It is desirable that the faithful remain loyal to the Church but disobedience and unwilling to change will only damage your union with God.

You belong in one of those Anglican Churches and other Protestants. I don’t think you should be sponsoring either because your personal opinions of the issue of ABC is not mortal sin is against the Catholic Church and is against Jesus Christ himself.

If you however want to resolve this issue with the Church teachings not allowing its faithful to use ABC, you are better off to go to confession, acknowledge that you are in error, and that you should stop practicing it.

Confession is the best opinion if you wish to reconcil with God and His Holy Catholic Church.

Your last option is to leave the Catholic Church, we don’t need Catholics who disagree with the Church’s Magisterium.

and YOU sir, are erroneous for believing that contraception is neutral. VERY VERY SINFULLY WRONG!!!

 

[mercygate]

What method of ABC is the OP using?

The answer to this question would in no way affect the substance of this discussion.

 

[RyanL]

Noma,

You seem to have your reasons to withhold judgment, and I understand. My wife is also non-Catholic, so I know how that can be difficult, although in my case *she *led *me *to NFP (and not the other way around).

Why would a non-Catholic be against ABC?

For starters, because it’s poison. It takes a part of your body which is functioning normally and makes it function abnormally. It’s intentional chemical sterilization, and it has a lot of nasty physiological side effects.

Second, as some have already said, it’s an abortifacient. In 1963, the national OB/GYN association redefined “fertilization” as the point of implantation of an already conceived embryo, rather than when the sperm fertilizes the egg. Through this deceptive slight of hand, the medical companies were able to market ABC as a “contra-ceptive” (i.e., against conception), despite the medical facts to the contrary. Contraception seemed more marketable than abortafacient, so the doctors changed the definition. It’s the same junk that’s happening with cloning (Somatic Cell Nuclear Transfer) and euthanasia/physician assisted suicide (Death with dignity). Rename it so it sounds nicer, then remarket it.

Third, it’s an immoral means to a (potentially) moral end, and the ends never justify the means. NFP, on the other hand, can be a moral means to the same (potentially) moral end. NFP, of course, can also help you conceive (that’s how I got my son), but that’s a different end.

Fourth, it separates the unitive and the procreative aspects of the marital embrace. This much you’ve probably heard.

Fifth, it ruins the icon of the Trinity which we can live out in our bodies. Two persons give themselves entirely in love to the the other, and this love becomes life-giving. So life-giving, in fact, that it becomes a new person. As Catholics, we know that we pray with our bodies (kneeling, standing, bowing, genuflecting, etc.). As the saying goes, lex orandi, lex credendi - if we start praying with our bodies to a different god, it won’t be long until we believe with our hearts in a different god. And as far as I know, the only God who can save us is the Triune God.

Just a couple of thoughts for ya’.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[Denise_Shae]

There aren’t many people I use the word “evil” to describe, but Margaret Sanger is one of them. There are two good books written about her, *Grand Illusions: The Legacy of Planned Parenthood *by George Grant (Protestant) and *Margaret Sanger: Father of Modern Society *by Elasah Drogin (Catholic)Hi Veritas,

Peace be with you!

I read more of Lifton’s book, last night. It’s over 500 pages, and one needs to take it in small doses, because it’s so horrifically unbelievable.
But as I was reading, all I could see was “Sanger’s” name in front of my eyes.

The EWTN profile on her was both enightening and sobering. <cringe>

Thanks for the titles you listed above. I think I’ll get “Margaret Sanger: Father of Modern Society”, first.

Have you read both? (BTW: Does this topic [Sanger] need to be on a new thread?)

Thanks and God Bless you!

 

[RyanL]

…Your last option is to leave the Catholic Church, we don’t need Catholics who disagree with the Church’s Magisterium…

I respectfully disagree.

Three years ago I was a Catholic who disagreed (strongly) with the Magisterium. If I had left, it’s likely I would never have come back.

Here’s the deal: if you believe in the Eucharist, where else could you go (John 6:68)? Anywhere else would be turning your back on the Christ. How could you even think of leaving?!?

If you don’t believe in the Eucharist, why on earth would you stay? The teaching is the stupidest form of idolatry imaginable - worshiping mere bread. And so many disciplines to boot! Why stay?

Again, just a couple of thoughts.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[Mannyfit75]

I respectfully disagree.

Three years ago I was a Catholic who disagreed (strongly) with the Magisterium. If I had left, it’s likely I would never have come back.

Here’s the deal: if you believe in the Eucharist, where else could you go (John 6:68)? Anywhere else would be turning your back on the Christ. How could you even think of leaving?!?

If you don’t believe in the Eucharist, why on earth would you stay? The teaching is the stupidest form of idolatry imaginable - worshiping mere bread. And so many disciplines to boot! Why stay?

Again, just a couple of thoughts.

God Bless,
RyanL

I did say my opinion, and as I have said, it is the last and final option.

I did left out one thing, we need to pray for noma for believing that conception is not a mortal sin.

 

[Veritas41]

I had four children in three years (one set of twins) right after we got married. I had to have c-sections with all of my pregnancies. The doctors said that it was a miracle that I was able to carry the last as long as I did. He wanted to tie my tubes right there in the operating room, but I refused. After that my husband, who is baptist, decided that since I wasn’t going to use any birth control that he was going to take matters in his own hands. He had a vasectomy, not because he was a selfish, tyrant
but because he feared for my saftey and the well being of the four children we already had. I know what church teaching on BC is so there’s no point in arguing over it. Somehow I just have trouble accepting that God would rather see a woman’s life endangered, and her children grow up motherless. Before anyone says it, NO I wouldn’t have an abortion, even if carrying the baby to term would lead to my death. That would be murder.

Just to through out some controversy for good measure, if sin is determined not just by the act, but the intent behind the act (i.e. stealing a car because you want it vs. stealing bread to feed your starving family) isn’t the intent behind NFP the same as using a condom. In both instances the intention is to prevent pregnancy. I know all of the NFP stuff about sacrifice and giving of self to your spouse, and about how it is open to the possibility of life, but if NFP works as good as the advocates say it does, then when you have relations during non fertile period, you are saying “we will have relations now, because there is no way that it can lead to pregnancy.” For me personally, I can never reconcile this thinking with the forbidden use of barrier methods such as the condom. I know someone will say “but it leaves open the possibility of conception”, I am sure there are many people who found that possibility to exist with the use of a condom as well.

I’m sorry for the difficulties you’ve had. I’ve had three high risk pregnancies and any future pregnancies I may have will be high risk, but I still use NFP, so I’m not speaking glibly here. I’m not judging you or your husband, so please don’t take this as a criticism, but I would like to point out some flaws here in your thinking. You mentioned you would never have an abortion, even if your life/health were at risk, and that’s good. But the argument you gave for using contraception justifies the use of abortion for someone facing serious health problems or even death if a pregnancy were continued. You have basically said that we can do something wrong (use contraception/sterilization) in order to bring about a good (preserve the health/life of a mother). If this is true, then you could say the same thing about women who choose to have abortions --some really are in situations where their health/life is at risk (I’ve been a crisis pregnancy counselor for 12 years, so I’m aware of such situations, and the many times it’s pure selfishness). I used contraception the first two years of my marriage (I was Protestant and had no problems with it), but it was counseling with women considering abortion that led me to rethink the morality of contraception. The same reasons they were giving to have an abortion were the same reasons I had for using contraception. It really is a “slippery slope.” Contraception initially was approved in the Anglican church for married couples in difficult situations such as yours, but in allowing it in difficult situations, it’s hard to tell others they can’t for less serious reasons, so now we have widespread use, and many of those methods are abortifacient, so who knows how many lives have been lost over the decades? Likewise with abortion – many people, even Christians, will approve of abortion in “hard cases” --rape, incest, life of the mother–but as the old saying goes, hard cases make bad law. Once you allow it for hard cases, it’s pretty much impossible not to allow it for others, because what happens is the definition of “hard case” gets redefined and broadened until it is meaningless (it becomes very subjective because what may be a hard case to you might not seem hard to someone else, and vice-versa). And you’re right that NFP can be used selfishly with a contraceptive type mentality, but that doesn’t make it the moral equivalent of contraception. People can donate to charity for selfish reasons or even pray for selfish reasons,but that doesn’t make those acts bad in themselves because people do them for the wrong reasons. NFP doesn’t render the sexual act infertile, contraception does.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I respectfully disagree.

Here’s the deal: if you believe in the Eucharist, where else could you go (John 6:68)? Anywhere else would be turning your back on the Christ. How could you even think of leaving?!?

 

[Denise_Shae]

Noma,

You seem to have your reasons to withhold judgment, and I understand. My wife is also non-Catholic, so I know how that can be difficult, although in my case *she *led *me *to NFP (and not the other way around).

Why would a non-Catholic be against ABC?

For starters, because it’s poison. It takes a part of your body which is functioning normally and makes it function abnormally. It’s intentional chemical sterilization, and it has a lot of nasty physiological side effects.

Second, as some have already said, it’s an abortifacient. In 1963, the national OB/GYN association redefined “fertilization” as the point of implantation of an already conceived embryo, rather than when the sperm fertilizes the egg. Through this deceptive slight of hand, the medical companies were able to market ABC as a “contra-ceptive” (i.e., against conception), despite the medical facts to the contrary. Contraception seemed more marketable than abortafacient, so the doctors changed the definition. It’s the same junk that’s happening with cloning (Somatic Cell Nuclear Transfer) and euthanasia/physician assisted suicide (Death with dignity). Rename it so it sounds nicer, then remarket it.

Third, it’s an immoral means to a (potentially) moral end, and the ends never justify the means. NFP, on the other hand, can be a moral means to the same (potentially) moral end. NFP, of course, can also help you conceive (that’s how I got my son), but that’s a different end.

Fourth, it separates the unitive and the procreative aspects of the marital embrace. This much you’ve probably heard.

Fifth, it ruins the icon of the Trinity which we can live out in our bodies. Two persons give themselves entirely in love to the the other, and this love becomes life-giving. So life-giving, in fact, that it becomes a new person. As Catholics, we know that we pray with our bodies (kneeling, standing, bowing, genuflecting, etc.). As the saying goes, lex orandi, lex credendi - if we start praying with our bodies to a different god, it won’t be long until we believe with our hearts in a different god. And as far as I know, the only God who can save us is the Triune God.

Just a couple of thoughts for ya’.

God Bless,
RyanL

My wife is also non-Catholic, so I know how that can be difficult, **although in my case *she ***led *me *to NFP (and not the other way around).

Hi Ryan,

I think there are a lot of non-Catholic Christians who don’t believe using ABC is right. (or even a matter of one’s opinion)

A few devout “Born-Again” evangelical couples I know are adamantly against it, because they also believe it’s intrinsically evil.
And these people, in no way, are supporters of the RCC.

God Bless!

 

[Veritas41]

I can see that you absolutely mean to do God’s will. The answer to this objection to Church teaching on contraception is perhaps the hardest part of Christianity. The simple fact is, Christ showed us the consequences of being a disciple of his and doing what’s right when he suffered and died. No one ever made a secret of the fact that doing what’s right (in this case, refusing to contracept an act of sex) can and probably will result in intense suffering. That truth about Christianity has been reiterated in the martyrdoms of Christians, and the suffering of saints like Maximilian Kolbe for the entire history of the Church.

After hearing (truthfully) for so long that God loves us more intensely than we are capable of grasping, it is very easy to fall into the (suprisingly common) view that Christianity is an “easy” religion, that discipleship leads to comfort and happiness universally. Christianity is no “easy” religion, it is clearly the hardest religion of all. Absolutely nothing less than total surrender to Christ is asked of a Christian, even to the point of a mother dying and leaving her children behind to do what she knows is right. That is how difficult the religion you and I signed up for is, and Christ made no secret of it.

I can see from your refusal to use contraception yourself that you truly do understand the Church’s teaching on contraception, so your final objection is the only thing left for me to respond to. Is it ever God’s will that a child grows up motherless? Of course not. But what if the only way to prevent that was by cutting sex off from the creation of life, and destroying the ability of sex to image God’s love? Would Jesus go with the “lesser of two evils” point of view? I think he wouldn’t. We are called to do nothing less than establish God’s Kingdom on earth. We cannot merely be concerned with choosing a lesser evil, we must work towards destroying all evil. That simply won’t ever happen as long as we use evil means to acchieve good ends.

The difference between NFP and contraception is not necessarily a matter of intention, but a matter of ends and means. Certainly, both lead to the same end: no babies. The difference comes in the way they acchieve that end. Contraception does it by cutting off a specific act of sex from life. NFP does it by conforming to the way God designed the human body. The sin of contraception comes in cutting off specific acts of sex from the creation of life. When a couple who are not using NFP has sex on an infertile day, what prevents pregnancy? The way God designed women. And when a a couple who are using NFP have sex on an infertile day, what prevents pregnancy? The way God designed women! So it is not something the couple did specifically that prevents conception from that particular act of sex, but God’s design that did.

Now, beyond not merely contracepting sex (IE: cutting off specific acts of sex from procreation), you’re right: A couple has an obligation to be open to children in general. That’s why NFP should not be used lightly, only when the couple has a serious reason to postpone having children for a while. Either way, the couple would not be guilty of contraception with NFP, eveb if they were guilty of being closed to children in general.

I hope all of this helps; God bless!

Excellent post – you made some very good points:thumbsup:

 

[lizaanne]

Whatever you do PLEASE don’t use the pill! Don’t have a hand in aborting your children. I never knew how evil the pill was until about a year ago. Now I have to deal with the idea that I have children in heaven who I never knew. This weighs heavy on my heart…please get off the pill.

In Christ,
Michael

He never said they were using the pill.

~Liza

 

[lizaanne]

In my personal opinion, I don’t think you should remain Catholic and leave.

…

Your last option is to leave the Catholic Church, we don’t need Catholics who disagree with the Church’s Magisterium.

This is far from being charitible and loving of one’s neighbor who is clearly trying to discern his direction in a difficult time in his life. Driving away those who are seeking to do God’s will more fully, yet finding difficulty along that path, does no one any good.

Be a little loving here, would ya? The guy is asking for our comments and has said he will think about what everyone has said. He’s not ready to change on a dime at this second, but with God’s help and our prayers anything is possible. To just kick him to the curb is a horrible thing to do, and may cause him to be lost to the Church forever. And I believe THAT would be the most heart wrenching sin of all.

~Liza

 

[Denise_Shae]

I’m sorry for the difficulties you’ve had. I’ve had three high risk pregnancies and any future pregnancies I may have will be high risk, but I still use NFP, so I’m not speaking glibly here. I’m not judging you or your husband, so please don’t take this as a criticism, but I would like to point out some flaws here in your thinking. You mentioned you would never have an abortion, even if your life/health were at risk, and that’s good. But the argument you gave for using contraception justifies the use of abortion for someone facing serious health problems or even death if a pregnancy were continued. You have basically said that we can do something wrong (use contraception/sterilization) in order to bring about a good (preserve the health/life of a mother). If this is true, then you could say the same thing about women who choose to have abortions --some really are in situations where their health/life is at risk (I’ve been a crisis pregnancy counselor for 12 years, so I’m aware of such situations, and the many times it’s pure selfishness). I used contraception the first two years of my marriage (I was Protestant and had no problems with it), but it was counseling with women considering abortion that led me to rethink the morality of contraception. The same reasons they were giving to have an abortion were the same reasons I had for using contraception. It really is a “slippery slope.” Contraception initially was approved in the Anglican church for married couples in difficult situations such as yours, but in allowing it in difficult situations, it’s hard to tell others they can’t for less serious reasons, so now we have widespread use, and many of those methods are abortifacient, so who knows how many lives have been lost over the decades? Likewise with abortion – many people, even Christians, will approve of abortion in “hard cases” --rape, incest, life of the mother–but as the old saying goes, hard cases make bad law. Once you allow it for hard cases, it’s pretty much impossible not to allow it for others, because what happens is the definition of “hard case” gets redefined and broadened until it is meaningless (it becomes very subjective because what may be a hard case to you might not seem hard to someone else, and vice-versa). And you’re right that NFP can be used selfishly with a contraceptive type mentality, but that doesn’t make it the moral equivalent of contraception. People can donate to charity for selfish reasons or even pray for selfish reasons,but that doesn’t make those acts bad in themselves because people do them for the wrong reasons. NFP doesn’t render the sexual act infertile, contraception does.

any future pregnancies I may have will be high risk, but I still use NFP, so I’m not speaking glibly here.

I’m in the same situation. Between illness and medications, pregnancy would be dangerous for both myself and the unborn child.
However, I still can’t justify playing God by using ABC.

I’ve been using the calendar method for the past 16 years, successfully. The rest is in the Hands of God. I trust that no matter what happens, He will provide.

God Bless!

 

[Veritas41]

I’m in the same situation. Between illness and medications, pregnancy would be dangerous for both myself and the unborn child.
However, I still can’t justify playing God by using ABC.

I’ve been using the calendar method for the past 16 years, successfully. The rest is in the Hands of God. I trust that no matter what happens, He will provide.

God Bless!

You have stated the heart of the matter–trust in God. God bless you for the testimony of your life!

 

[Veritas41]

Hi Veritas,

Peace be with you!

I read more of Lifton’s book, last night. It’s over 500 pages, and one needs to take it in small doses, because it’s so horrifically unbelievable.
But as I was reading, all I could see was “Sanger’s” name in front of my eyes.

The EWTN profile on her was both enightening and sobering. <cringe>

Thanks for the titles you listed above. I think I’ll get “Margaret Sanger: Father of Modern Society”, first.

Have you read both? (BTW: Does this topic [Sanger] need to be on a new thread?)

Thanks and God Bless you!

yes, I have read both. Drogin’s book is much shorter than Grant’s, but they are both good. Blessings!

 

[Cristiano]

In my personal opinion, I don’t think you should remain Catholic and leave. The Church doesn’t need Catholics who refuse to change their views regarding the moral teachings of the Church.

Leaving the Church is a grave matter and inducing other people to commit mortal sin is a grave matter too.

If you however want to resolve this issue with the Church teachings not allowing its faithful to use ABC, you are better off to go to confession, acknowledge that you are in error, and that you should stop practicing it.

Confession is the best opinion if you wish to reconcile with God and His Holy Catholic Church.

This is a very appropriate and sound suggestion.

Your last option is to leave the Catholic Church, we don’t need Catholics who disagree with the Church’s Magisterium.

This is contrary to the economy of God, as a Church the Body of Christ we are required to try to gather everybody in it. Only God decides whom we need.