I accept Birth Control, and that's not gonna change!

[Denise_Shae]

yes, I have read both. Drogin’s book is much shorter than Grant’s, but they are both good. Blessings!

I located the two titles. Need to purchase them used, since they seem to be out of print.

I also came across another book on Sanger called: “Killer Angel: A Short Biography of Planned Parenthood’s Founder, Margaret Sanger (Paperback)” by: George Grant

Have you heard of that one?

God Bless!

 

[Veritas41]

I located the two titles. Need to purchase them used, since they seem to be out of print.

I also came across another book on Sanger called: “Killer Angel: A Short Biography of Planned Parenthood’s Founder, Margaret Sanger (Paperback)” by: George Grant

Have you heard of that one?

God Bless!

No, I haven’t heard of that one – I wonder if it’s a shortened version of Grant’s “Grand Illusions” book? That might be a good one to check out. Peace and blessings!

 

[marci]

But the argument you gave for using contraception justifies the use of abortion for someone facing serious health problems or even death if a pregnancy were continued. You have basically said that we can do something wrong (use contraception/sterilization) in order to bring about a good (preserve the health/life of a mother). If this is true, then you could say the same thing about women who choose to have abortions --some really are in situations where their health/life is at risk

I don’t see how you can make the leap. In one circumstance, i.e.
condom, you are talking about preventing conception. With abortion you are talking about the delibrate termination of a life that already exists no matter how early in pregnancy one may be in. That is why in my posts I have never mentioned the pill. I believe it can be abortive, so I would never justify it’s use.
Also to answer another post about “the church not requiring ‘extreme circumstances’ for use of NFP” that is simply not the case. The church does not say that one can use NFP forever as long term BC just because one does not want more children or no children at all. We were told this by our priest when we went through PRE CANA.

By the way, I just wanted to again say that I do not use BC, but my husband (based on afore mentioned circumstances) who is not catholic, had a vasectomy. I never used BC, other then NFP, throughout our entire marriage. I had four children in 3 years using NFP. My grandmother had 14 (11 survived), her twin sister had 14. They didn’t have C-sections until the last child, but did have a couple of nervous breakdowns. I also wanted to say that not all couples are just lustful and can’t control themselves. I personally could live like a nun at this point in my life. But, my husband would not appriciate that very much. So I make that sacrifice. Oops! probably a little to much information. Oh, well, just wanted to say thanks to all that have discussed this topic with me in charity. I am still a work in progress.

 

[Denise_Shae]

No, I haven’t heard of that one – I wonder if it’s a shortened version of Grant’s “Grand Illusions” book? That might be a good one to check out. Peace and blessings!

Actually, I did, because what the private merchants were charging for Drogin’s 128 pp (used) copies, is utterly ridiculous.
I don’t spend that kind of money on brand new books, let alone used ones. So I substituted it for “Killer Angel”.

I also ordered a copy of, “Pro-Life Answers to Pro-Choice Arguments Expanded & Updated” by; Randy Alcorn.

I’m curious to see what arguments he uses against “Pro-Choice”.

Thanks again for the titles and God Bless you and yours!

 

[RyanL]

… In one circumstance, i.e., condom, you are talking about preventing conception. With abortion you are talking about the delibrate termination of a life that already exists no matter how early in pregnancy one may be in. That is why in my posts I have never mentioned the pill. I believe it can be abortive, so I would never justify it’s use…

I agree - the reasons for the Church’s opposition to condoms and to the pill are different, although they overlap. For condoms, it’s about separating the unitive from the procreative. For the pill, it’s about that but it’s also about it being an abortifacient (and a poison which destroys God’s temple).

Try thinking about condoms this way, and see if you see the problem.

God wants a part of your sexual life, but He’s not greedy. He only wants to be a part of your sexual life during the fertile times so that you might create new life with Him.

It’s kinda’ like God saying, “If you want to throw a party, that’s fine; but I’m only available the second week of any given month. If you want to throw a party outside of that, it’s fine – I won’t be offended. If you want to throw a party during that time, please know that I might like to show up.”

With the condom, you bolt the door just in case God decides to show up so that you can party without Him. You shun God, and tell Him that He’s no longer invited because you simply don’t want Him there. You dim the lights and hide behind the couch when He comes knocking, praying that He won’t see you – you would prefer to ditch Him. You make God the third wheel in your marriage, rather than the center.

With NFP, you simply don’t have the party. Some times there’s good reason not to have a party, like you don’t have the money or you don’t have the time to plan/clean-up. That’s fine. God wants you to celebrate, but He understands if you can’t right now. No biggie, and God still remains at the center of your marriage.

Do you see the difference?

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[Maureen_Fiore]

Thank you for your very kind post. In most forums, I would probably say that I am surprised, but so far I have found no response to be lacking in love.

As for NFP, I see it as contraception using a “technology of abstinence”. If I came to accept that contraception were wrong, I would have to accept NFP as wrong as well.

What if you abstain during the fertile period and use condom when you are not fertile?

 

[Black_Jaque]

But to the final point: I do not, nor can I reasonably accept that artificial contraception for the sake of regulating marriages is intrinsically sinful.

Actually this is not the final point. Perhaps you reject this doctrine because you have also rejected the doctrine that the Church teaches with authority on matters of morals.

Does the Church know more about morality than you do?

If you think you are a better authority on morality than the Church is, then that is probably where you split with the Church.

If, however, you assent that the Church knows more than you do about morals, you in effect admit that there’s a possibility that you might be incorrect on your stance on ABC.

Now, examine the credentials of the Church… St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, John Paul II plus many more. There’s a myriad of really heavy weight moral thinkers. Do you really think you have something they didn’t? Do you really think you know better than they do?

If you think you know better than the Doctors of the Church, Church Fathers, and other great popes, then yes, perhaps you would be more sincere to reconsider calling yourself a Catholic.

If however, you estimate these names of great thinkers, theologians, and saints as bigger and better than you, then perhaps you would do well to read up on them. See what they say on the matter. Then if they disagree with you, try to figure out why.

Hint. It has to do with Human life being sacred.

 

[Maureen_Fiore]

I agree - the reasons for the Church’s opposition to condoms and to the pill are different, although they overlap. For condoms, it’s about separating the unitive from the procreative. For the pill, it’s about that but it’s also about it being an abortifacient (and a poison which destroys God’s temple).

Try thinking about condoms this way, and see if you see the problem.

God wants a part of your sexual life, but He’s not greedy. He only wants to be a part of your sexual life during the fertile times so that you might create new life with Him.

It’s kinda’ like God saying, “If you want to throw a party, that’s fine; but I’m only available the second week of any given month. If you want to throw a party outside of that, it’s fine – I won’t be offended. If you want to throw a party during that time, please know that I might like to show up.”

With the condom, you bolt the door just in case God decides to show up so that you can party without Him. You shun God, and tell Him that He’s no longer invited because you simply don’t want Him there. You dim the lights and hide behind the couch when He comes knocking, praying that He won’t see you – you would prefer to ditch Him. You make God the third wheel in your marriage, rather than the center.

With NFP, you simply don’t have the party. Some times there’s good reason not to have a party, like you don’t have the money or you don’t have the time to plan/clean-up. That’s fine. God wants you to celebrate, but He understands if you can’t right now. No biggie, and God still remains at the center of your marriage.

Do you see the difference?

God Bless,
RyanL

I like how you explained this it made sense. So, what you are saying that we can abstain during the time we are fertile to avoid pregnancy? What if your husband still wants to use a condom during that time? Is it still a sin?

 

[jmcrae]

I like how you explained this it made sense. So, what you are saying that we can abstain during the time we are fertile to avoid pregnancy? What if your husband still wants to use a condom during that time? Is it still a sin?

Yes, it is always a sin to use a condom, because it makes a barrier between the man and the woman.

 

[Denise_Shae]

I like how you explained this it made sense. So, what you are saying that we can abstain during the time we are fertile to avoid pregnancy? What if your husband still wants to use a condom during that time? Is it still a sin?

Yeah, I think it is.

My husband is more or less liberal and doesn’t see anything wrong with ABC. However, he knows how strongly I feel about what the Church teaches and how much I want to obey Her Teachings & Doctrines, and he respects that.

He’s never tried to talk me into letting him use a condom when he knows I’m able to conceive.

His respect for my beliefs bolsters my respect for him.

God Bless!

 

[RyanL]

Yes, it is always a sin to use a condom, because it makes a barrier between the man and the woman.

I somewhat agree, but I have to heavily qualify my agreement. Here’s what Catholic Answers Apologist Michelle Arnold had to say about a similar circumstance:
Michelle Arnold:

So long as your wife knows of your opposition, so long as you are not actively contracepting yourself…and so long as you are continuing to pray for her conversion and educate her (at appropriate times) about the moral problem of birth control, you are doing all that is required of you. You need not abstain from marital relations with her in order to receive the Eucharist.

Couple this with the standing command of 1 Cor 7:3 and it seems that it would not be sinful for you to have sex with a contracepting spouse, provided that you have in fact given this knowledge and do in fact pray while continuing to educate.

It’s still sinful for the contracepting spouse, but only to the degree it’s done with (1) full knowledge of the act/implications and (2) full consent of the will. Because of these limitations, it may be a venial sin for the contracepting spouse and not a sin for the non-contracepting spouse.

…in my opinion.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[zootjeff]

The Pill does cause abortions.

Can you please site some references on your abortion claim?

health.howstuffworks.com/birth-control-ga1.htm

I don’t know where you get your information, but this is how I understand the pill to work:

Oral contraceptives, or birth control pills, are one of the most effective reversible methods of contraception. A woman taking the pill properly has less than a 1 percent chance of getting pregnant.

The pill – which is available by prescription only – uses synthetic female hormones (estrogen and progestin) to override the natural hormonal regulation that results in the release of an egg. The pill signals the pituitary gland, which directs hormonal activity in the body, not to release the hormones that would normally stimulate the ovary to release an egg.

Each day the woman takes one pill, at about the same time of day, removing it from a container that has the required number of pills for one cycle (usually 21). One to three days after she takes the last pill for that cycle, her menstrual period begins. Menstrual periods may be lighter in flow, and cramps may be reduced or absent.

If she forgets to take one pill or more, menstrual bleeding may begin. In that case, she should continue taking the pills daily, but she should also use another contraceptive method, such as a condom, until after her next regular period.

Birth control pills are not recommended for women with a history of high blood pressure, blood-clotting problems, hepatitis, or cancer of the uterus or breast. A woman over age 35 who smokes is advised to stop smoking if she wants to take the pill. Birth control pills should not be taken by a woman who suspects she may be pregnant. In addition, women with diabetes, epilepsy, heart disease, or thyroid disease may be advised not to take birth control pills, depending on the nature and severity of the disease.

It is important for a woman taking birth control pills to report to her doctor if any of the following symptoms occur: blurred vision; severe chest pain; sudden shortness of breath; abdominal pain; unusual bleeding or bruising; breakthrough vaginal bleeding (spotting); changes in menstrual flow; pain in the calves; depression; difficult or painful urination; enlarged or tender breasts; hearing changes; increase or decrease in hair growth; migraine headaches; numbness or tingling; rash; skin color changes; swelling of the feet, ankles, or lower legs; vaginal itching; weight changes; or yellowing of the eyes or skin.

 

[jmcrae]

Ryan;

Of course you are right - contraception is a sin for the person doing the contracepting. If the spouse has no desire to do this, but also no way of stopping the other person, then there is no sin on their part.

 

[Maureen_Fiore]

Yeah, I think it is.

My husband is more or less liberal and doesn’t see anything wrong with ABC. However, he knows how strongly I feel about what the Church teaches and how much I want to obey Her Teachings & Doctrines, and he respects that.

So, even if you abstain during your fertile period and only have relations during the time you are not fertile. Using a condom is still a sin? I mean what if he feels safe by using one, so you decide ok it will be even more safe doing it when you are not even fertile. Is that still a sin?

 

[Mannyfit75]

This is far from being charitible and loving of one’s neighbor who is clearly trying to discern his direction in a difficult time in his life. Driving away those who are seeking to do God’s will more fully, yet finding difficulty along that path, does no one any good.

Be a little loving here, would ya? The guy is asking for our comments and has said he will think about what everyone has said. He’s not ready to change on a dime at this second, but with God’s help and our prayers anything is possible. To just kick him to the curb is a horrible thing to do, and may cause him to be lost to the Church forever. And I believe THAT would be the most heart wrenching sin of all.

~Liza

In the later posts, I quoted. “namo needs prayers to help him realize that his views on ABC is a grave matter.”

 

[Mannyfit75]

Leaving the Church is a grave matter and inducing other people to commit mortal sin is a grave matter too.

Yes it is a grave matter. I wrote what I said because namo regardless of what we said, he is willing to unchange his views. I am well that leading others to commit a serious sin is mortal.

I doubt that he will leave because he said, “I will be Catholic until the day I die.”

[QUOTEThis is a very appropriate and sound suggestion.

This is contrary to the economy of God, as a Church the Body of Christ we are required to try to gather everybody in it. Only God decides whom we need.
[/QUOTE]

Like I said at the later post, that namo needs prayers. You aren’t the first one who probably missed that. Indeed, my opinions of him leaving the church is unchariable but the man can decide his path.

 

[monalisa1]

Believe what the Holy Spirit tells you. The Canon states that the Church is the Kingdom of God. You belong to the Kingdom. You cannot be cast out, LOL.

Jesus loves women, and children. He will not mislead. Who is it to say how Jesus cares for us… perhaps it isn’t healthy for a woman to have 12 children. Who is it for anyone to judge.

Praise be to the Lord.

 

[RyanL]

Can you please site some references on your abortion claim?

Please read this. The pill is, scientifically speaking, an abortifacient.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[monalisa1]

Peace to you.

Don’t worry about what the others think. We are all brothers and sisters and look how we squabble. As long as you love the Lord and listen to the Holy Spirit I don’t see how it is my right to argue with the will of the Lord in your life. The Church is the Kingdom of God meant for good not for absolute control don’t give it that power!

Praise be to Lord Jesus.

NFP is contraception. Tell yourself whatever you must, it’s contraception. You are having relations with your wife in a period where you know she will not get pregnant for the intent of not allowing her to get pregnant.

We are not animals, we don’t have relations simply for pro creation. God did not mean it to be that way, it’s to be something more than that. Something special between a man and a woman. Regardless of whether or not you’re making a baby or not.

We have control over our bodies and God intended for us to have control over certain aspects of ourselves. That is why we are not robots like animals.

This is being overly scrupulous and should be something between a couple.

If someone is going to tell me that having relations with my WIFE is a sin for any reason whatsoever I am going to object.

I would not treat my wife like an animal or an object because I respect her. I see no problem at all with having pleasurable relations with someone I care about deeply. Regardless of whether she wants to get pregant or not.

I will choose when I want to have a child for the CHILDS SAKE I WILL CHOOSE WHEN AND WHEN I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE A CHILD.

 

[Mommyof02green]

Can you please site some references on your abortion claim?

omsoul.com/pamphlet126.Ho…ives-Work.html

prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html

God Bless!