I agree with keeping religion teaching out of public school

[Jala]

Completely agree with the OP. God is everywhere.

However, accommodating the prayer rituals of every student would leave little time to actually learn things like math, science, English, history, etc.

If you want your children to learn religion, send them to church. If you want them to learn algebra, send them to school. It really is that easy.

(Note–a class in comparative religions is fine; it’s the mandating of a specific form of prayer/worship that I oppose.)

Jala

 

[DebChris]

Even with a voucher system, taxes would still be needed to pay and maintain the public building used for public schools. Unfortunately, in many communities, bonds are failing and these buildings do not meet minimum safety codes.
If the best teachers are in the public schools, parents will send their children to the public schools for the education that they receive. If some parents choose to send their children to private schools, because vouchers make that possible, then fewer new public buildings need to be built and taxes that are spent on education will be used for that purpose.
There was a time in the United States when education was primarily private.
Private schools that wish to remain exclusive will contimue to price themselve so that only the weathiest can afford to send their children there.

 

[manualman]

That’s true. Private schools that exist for snobbish reasons will simply raise their prices to maintain exclusivity. So? The modest voucher I propose won’t affect their enrollment numbers at all. But it WILL empower many religious parents to choose a religiously motivated school that they otherwise couldn’t afford when they also have to pay for the bloated public school tax burden.

Thus the schools that will primarily benefit from a modest voucher program are NOT a significant threat to “stealing” the cream of the teacher’s crop from the public system. Teachers in religious schools are almost always a second income for the family. Why? Because they don’t get PAID enough to be a primary income. Last time there was a strike around here I heard that the average public school teacher salary in that suburban district was north of $70,000. Catholic schools typically pay around half that. Not exactly a threat to the public school teacher base. Catholic school teachers mostly only do it because they feel called to it.

 

[livingwordunity]

I think the real issue is we shouldn’t have “public” schools. Public funding is fine, but it should be in voucher form, where the parents choose among privately run schools.

Any centrally controlled system is going to push somebody’s agenda. So, now instead of pushing the old mainline Protestant agenda, public schools push the secularist agenda.

Let parents choose if they want their kid to go to a Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, or secular school. Keep the gov’t out of it as much as possible.

God Bless

Great idea but now impossible with Obama having been reelected for a second term.

 

[DebChris]

That’s true. Private schools that exist for snobbish reasons will simply raise their prices to maintain exclusivity. So? The modest voucher I propose won’t affect their enrollment numbers at all. But it WILL empower many religious parents to choose a religiously motivated school that they otherwise couldn’t afford when they also have to pay for the bloated public school tax burden.

Thus the schools that will primarily benefit from a modest voucher program are NOT a significant threat to “stealing” the cream of the teacher’s crop from the public system. Teachers in religious schools are almost always a second income for the family. Why? Because they don’t get PAID enough to be a primary income. Last time there was a strike around here I heard that the average public school teacher salary in that suburban district was north of $70,000. Catholic schools typically pay around half that. Not exactly a threat to the public school teacher base. Catholic school teachers mostly only do it because they feel called to it.

The Supreme Court has already supported the voucher system as constitutional.
If more middle income parents can send their children to private schools, the public actually saves money. Tax moneys set aside to maintain public buildings can actually be used for that purpose. Vouchers would reduce the current overcrowding in schools.
Vouchers are not limited to those who choose to send their children to private schools for religious reasons. Chinese Americans send their children to “Chinese school” after regular hours. The Chinese language can be integrated into a regular curriculum.
Chicago is a much more expensive area to live than other parts of the country. As a teacher, the amount quoted sounds a bit exagerated. The average teacher makes far less than that, although it is can still be considered a decent income. Teachers, like other professionals, do have out of pocket expenses. One example is the class library.

 

[livingwordunity]

The Supreme Court has already supported the voucher system as constitutional.
If more middle income parents can send their children to private schools, the public actually saves money. Tax moneys set aside to maintain public buildings can actually be used for that purpose. Vouchers would reduce the current overcrowding in schools.
Vouchers are not limited to those who choose to send their children to private schools for religious reasons. Chinese Americans send their children to “Chinese school” after regular hours. The Chinese language can be integrated into a regular curriculum.
Chicago is a much more expensive area to live than other parts of the country. As a teacher, the amount quoted sounds a bit exagerated. The average teacher makes far less than that, although it is can still be considered a decent income. Teachers, like other professionals, do have out of pocket expenses. One example is the class library.

It’s odd how liberals are “Pro-Choice” on abortion but anti-choice when it comes to education, unions, and gun ownership.

 

[VirtusTransitus]

I just don’t like the revisionism that goes on under the cloak of separation of church and state.

America was founded on Christian (albeit protestant) ideals by Christians, and God is woven into the very fabric of the nation.

America’s public schools are largely based on the Christian ideal of charity and concern for all member of society, not just the priveledged classes.

But when God is purged from schools, America is by default redefined. It isn’t a far or difficult leap from that ledge to the one where we redefine what it means to be a “member of society”.

When membership in society becomes less an active responsibility and more a passive entitlement, we are on a dangerous path to chaos.

But if God (and therefore Christian ideals) remains in our schools, even for the non-believers, we avoid to a great degree the dumbing down of the definition of active citizenship.

Just my 2c.

When God is no longer welcome in the public spaces in America, then we’ve lost America.

 

[manualman]

… As a teacher, the amount quoted sounds a bit exagerated. The average teacher makes far less than that, although it is can still be considered a decent income. Teachers, like other professionals, do have out of pocket expenses. One example is the class library.

Region surely does matter. My quote came from the TV news reports at the time of the strike, not any biased advocacy group. That’s suburban Chicago, other regions are of course going to be quite a bit less.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I just don’t like the revisionism that goes on under the cloak of separation of church and state.

America was founded on Christian (albeit protestant) ideals by Christians, and God is woven into the very fabric of the nation.

America’s public schools are largely based on the Christian ideal of charity and concern for all member of society, not just the priveledged classes.

But when God is purged from schools, America is by default redefined. It isn’t a far or difficult leap from that ledge to the one where we redefine what it means to be a “member of society”.

When membership in society becomes less an active responsibility and more a passive entitlement, we are on a dangerous path to chaos.

But if God (and therefore Christian ideals) remains in our schools, even for the non-believers, we avoid to a great degree the dumbing down of the definition of active citizenship.

Just my 2c.

When God is no longer welcome in the public spaces in America, then we’ve lost America.

I like the idea that there are ideals we built the country on that transcend religious boundaries, starting with Protestant v. Catholic. But the Constitution is clear, and for many good reasons, that the religion is not to drive the government. For example, every major world religion has had some form of the Golden Rule. That is not specifically Christian, although Christ did state it. It wasn’t in Christ stating the golden rule that made it valuable; He was simply observing a principal that all religions have found. Why should the government officially “prefer” one religion’s version of it over another?

In other words, there are truths that transcend religion, such as the need for people to be kind to each other. We don’t need religious professionals for that.

Alan

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[DebChris]

Region surely does matter. My quote came from the TV news reports at the time of the strike, not any biased advocacy group. That’s suburban Chicago, other regions are of course going to be quite a bit less.

I was in Chicago for a short period of time. Like New York and Los Angeles, salaries do need to be higher just to make ends meet. I also saw a special on ABC (I think) which showed the fantastic resources provided in some rich school districts compared to what students living in economically deprived areas receive.
I actually see where vouchers will help lift these students out of proverty by relieving the overcrowding in poorly maintained buildings that do not promote learning. I am not saying that students need new buildings for the best education. I received a better education in WWII Army barracks than I did in a new school building; but every student deserves to attend school in a safe building.

In my first post, I included a link to the Golden Rule as taught by all major religions. As such, it can be posted in public classrooms. The law, as it stands now, does not deny students the right to express their religious belief, whatever it may be. The problem with teaching religion in public school, as opposed to teaching about religions, is when it contradicts what is taught at home.
Vouchers mean parents can choose parochial schools that match their denominational teachings. There are Presbyterian as well as Catholic schools. There are also Hasidic schools, so vouchers are not limited to the Christian Religion. Neither is the First Amendment.

BTW I teach overseas. Islamic Religion is a state mandated part of the curriculum. Non-Muslim, non-Arab students are exempt.

 

[VirtusTransitus]

But the Constitution is clear, and for many good reasons, that the religion is not to drive the government. For example, every major world religion has had some form of the Golden Rule. That is not specifically Christian, although Christ did state it. It wasn’t in Christ stating the golden rule that made it valuable; He was simply observing a principal that all religions have found. Why should the government officially “prefer” one religion’s version of it over another?

I agree that “religion” has no place. But using the relativistic argument that the Golden Rule is universal is not exactly relevant to that discussion.

My post was about God, not religion. God has slowly and methodically been evicted from public spaces in America. Regardless of how one interprets the establishment clause, it is unmistakable that America was founded with faith in God at its center, and having God evicted from the public space is equivalent to having God evicted from the American character.

I’d be “on the barricades” if our Congress attempted to establish Catholicism or Protestantism or any other religion as the State Religion. However, ignoring God’s centrality to American culture and the founding values is, again, simply relativistic revisionism.

One of the first things autocrats do is rewrite history. As America’s government grows and grows and grows, is there any doubt that we’re melding and morphing autocracy and oligarchy?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I agree that “religion” has no place. But using the relativistic argument that the Golden Rule is universal is not exactly relevant to that discussion.

How is it not? You say you don’t want to establish Christianity as a state religion, but you want God acknowledged? How about using truths that everybody’s God agrees with, as a starting point?

And please explain to me what you mean by “relativistic?” Is this not God’s word proclaimed? How does the fact that other religions agree with us lessen its truth?

My post was about God, not religion. God has slowly and methodically been evicted from public spaces in America. Regardless of how one interprets the establishment clause, it is unmistakable that America was founded with faith in God at its center, and having God evicted from the public space is equivalent to having God evicted from the American character.

I’d be “on the barricades” if our Congress attempted to establish Catholicism or Protestantism or any other religion as the State Religion. However, ignoring God’s centrality to American culture and the founding values is, again, simply relativistic revisionism.

I’m trying to follow you, but I’m going in a circle. You don’t want particular religion, but you don’t want to forget God, but you don’t want to promote words of truth that God spoke.

What do you mean by “having God at its center,” other than promoting what you believe, in your particular religion, is God? Or do you have a “God-image” that is more fundamental than Christianity – in which case maybe you’re discovering what I’m saying.

One of the first things autocrats do is rewrite history. As America’s government grows and grows and grows, is there any doubt that we’re melding and morphing autocracy and oligarchy?

Please help me tie this in with the discussion. I’m not sure how all those terms tie together in the context of teaching religion in schools.

Thank you for you time and effort in replying. :tiphat:

Alan

 

[DebChris]

Regardless of belief in God, members of a society share certain values.
Students can be taught that it is wrong to plagarize, as an example, without God being mentioned. They can be taught that when they cheat, they are actually depriving themselves of the learning experience.
Parents remain their children’s first educators. It is from parents that children learn the value of hard work, as well as what their particular religion teaches. It is not the teacher’s job to usurp that responsibility. In fact, teachers and parents can form a strong partnership that helps students excel even when they come from different faith traditions.

 

[buffalo]

The truth should be taught in public school.

Who is truth itself? Who has the “fullness of truth”?

Why would we want any less for our children?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

The truth should be taught in public school.

Who is truth itself? Who has the “fullness of truth”?

Why would we want any less for our children?

The only place I’ve heard that term “fullness of truth” before was from Catholics talking about Catholicism, to the exclusion of any other. Are you suggesting that all children be mandated by law to learn Catholicism? And not just to learn “about” it, but to be taught it as Absolute Truth?

Basically we should not have freedom of religion of any sort in schools?

Alan

 

[DebChris]

How did Blessed Theresa of Calcutta teach about Christ? She tended to the poorest of the poor. Her preaching came more from her actions than from her words.
How do teachers teach Christ in public schools? They show Christ’s love as they open young minds to the arts and sciences. On a daily basis, they deal with children who come from different backgrounds. Some have ADHD and have a difficult time sitting still. Some students struggle with the basic concepts while others in the same class seek greater challenges. Many students come from dysfunctional homes and experience abuse on a daily basis. Teachers stop fights and bloody noses. They put bandages on scraped knees. They look for the best in children in a world that often looks for the worst in people. Sometimes, as shown at Sandy Hook, they even lay down their lives to protect the lives that have been put in their care.

 

[onenow1]

In all truth God fearing people must battle for there right to have the teaching of God,in all places, this is the command of Jesus, from the Father; Especially Christians and most especially Catholic Christians as He states in His prayer to the Father.

John 17​

14 I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.

Matthew 28​

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

Read more: ewtn.com/ewtn/bible/search_bible.asp#ixzz2FnSX6Q1D

"The absolute truth is, this is God’s world and we must do what He commands, not what the world wants. Our commission is to spread the word, not deny it to anyone,{all people} this is our commission as Christians, this is our religion to make disciples !! And of course it all starts at home !!

God Bless

 

[buffalo]

The only place I’ve heard that term “fullness of truth” before was from Catholics talking about Catholicism, to the exclusion of any other. Are you suggesting that all children be mandated by law to learn Catholicism? And not just to learn “about” it, but to be taught it as Absolute Truth?

Basically we should not have freedom of religion of any sort in schools?

Alan

We should be interested in them learning truth. If it is found in Catholicism then so be it.

Why hold back the truth from them?

Should we teach them any truth?

Partial truth?

Convenient truth?

Or the entire truth?

Jesus is either the Son of God or He is not. He proved to the world He is. He left the truth and deposit of faith with the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church.

Giving equal weight to every religion man comes up with does a disservice to everyone.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

We should be interested in them learning truth. If it is found in Catholicism then so be it.

Why hold back the truth from them?

Should we teach them any truth?

Partial truth?

Convenient truth?

Or the entire truth?

Jesus is either the Son of God or He is not. He proved to the world He is. He left the truth and deposit of faith with the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church.

Giving equal weight to every religion man comes up with does a disservice to everyone.

So freedom of religion is a bad idea?

Alan

 

[buffalo]

So freedom of religion is a bad idea?

Alan

Freedom of religion is a good idea. Freedom from religion is a bad idea.

The Catholic proposition should be part of America’s mission statement. Imagine if every decision and law were measured against this standard? America’s foundations had much truth. We have decided to turn away from these truths.

Where do you think this spiral will end?

What will reverse it in your mind?