"I am a 21st century priest, so I want to be in a 21st century church" - Father Oprah says to Oprah

[JReducation]

In these cases, the order of events DOES matter…he first engaged in an illicit relationship, both emotional and sexual, then attempted to discern his vocation …which may become difficult when engaged in a sexual relationship because it is a rather powerful force, to say the least…priest or not…for anyone!

Needless to say, the relationship got involved…and he still had not even mentioned that fact that he was considering the possibility of leaving the priesthood, which he doesn’ t want to do, according to his interviews. I guess that is the appeal of becoming Episcopalian…to be a priest and a husband/father…he could have become Orthodox instead, no? Or is his prior ordination as a priest an obstacle to marrying and then being ordained as Orthodox priest? I wonder…

I wonder if he can live without some of the things he is leaving behind…I couldn’t…I’m divorced and single…[not dating or anything] because I simply couldn’t leave certain things that only Catholics have.
And, interestingly, I grew up going to Episcopalian church on Sundays with a friend because my parents have never been religious, nor gone to church on Sundays.

To the Church the order of events is not important. The Church does not really factor those things in. The only important thing for the Church is the promise of celibacy. The Church tries to protect that promise. Therefore, the Holy See is not interested in what happened first or second. What it is interested in is whether a man can remain celibate. If he cannot, the Church wants him to request a dispensation from the promise of celibacy. Then the Church issues a decreee of laicization, which allows the dispensed priest to take his place among the laity. But he is not a layman. He will never be a layman. He will leave as a layman and be entitled to all the sacraments, including marriage.

Once a deacon, priest or bishop receives a dispensation all that the Church requires is that he make a good confession and it’s over as far as the Church is concerned.

As to joining the Orthodox Church, he cannot be ordained. He is already ordained. The Orthodox and Catholics have the same sacraments. They too have Apostolic Succession. Therefore we recognize the validity of the sacraments in all of the Apostolic Churches. The only sacramental separation between us is that they do not allow Catholics to receive communion at their Divine Liturgy. But if their deacons, priests or bishops become Catholics, they do not get ordained again. They are already ordianed. The same applies if we go to them. Therefore, Fr. Cutie could not marry, because you must marry before you become a deacon.

What we would have liked would have been to see him ask for the dispensation from celibacy. That would have been granted very quickly, given the fact that he was already involved with his future wife. The Church does not want any of her members to be involved in invalid marriages or illicit relationships. Therefore, in her mercy, the Church grants the dispensation. What the Church does not have the power to do is to take way the priesthood from a deacon, priest or bishop. She can laicize him, but that’s just a matter of joining the faithful as if he were a layman.

Hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Sunflower15]

To the Church the order of events is not important. The Church does not really factor those things in.

Are you saying that from the point of view of the Church, it is the same whether he first asks for the release of the promise of celibacy and then begins the relationship, or backwards? Really? That doesn’t make sense…it would seem to me that sin [and scandal] would have been entirely avoided and he still could have his relationship.

The only important thing for the Church is the promise of celibacy. The Church tries to protect that promise. Therefore, the Holy See is not interested in what happened first or second. What it is interested in is whether a man can remain celibate. If he cannot, the Church wants him to request a dispensation from the promise of celibacy. Then the Church issues a decreee of laicization, which allows the dispensed priest to take his place among the laity. But he is not a layman. He will never be a layman. He will leave as a layman and be entitled to all the sacraments, including marriage.

Once a deacon, priest or bishop receives a dispensation all that the Church requires is that he make a good confession and it’s over as far as the Church is concerned.

As to joining the Orthodox Church, he cannot be ordained. He is already ordained. The Orthodox and Catholics have the same sacraments. They too have Apostolic Succession. Therefore we recognize the validity of the sacraments in all of the Apostolic Churches. The only sacramental separation between us is that they do not allow Catholics to receive communion at their Divine Liturgy.
Do we allow the Orthodox to receive communion at ours?

But if their deacons, priests or bishops become Catholics, they do not get ordained again. They are already ordianed. The same applies if we go to them. Therefore, Fr. Cutie could not marry, because you must marry before you become a deacon.

That makes sense…I guess it’s the same as if he tried to become a Byzantine Catholic…

What we would have liked would have been to see him ask for the dispensation from celibacy. That would have been granted very quickly, given the fact that he was already involved with his future wife. The Church does not want any of her members to be involved in invalid marriages or illicit relationships. Therefore, in her mercy, the Church grants the dispensation. What the Church does not have the power to do is to take way the priesthood from a deacon, priest or bishop. She can laicize him, but that’s just a matter of joining the faithful as if he were a layman.

Even if she is divorced?

Hope this helps.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF

So, what could be the reason for not taking this path? I can only infer that he really wants to be a priest [by that I mean live as a priest, work as a priest] while being married.

 

[Sunflower15]

BTW, I did not see the Oprah Show * …

Did he really say that he wants to be in a 21st century church? I find that strange coming from him…for decades, he sounded very traditional in his beliefs…
*

 

[JReducation]

So, what could be the reason for not taking this path? I can only infer that he really wants to be a priest [by that I mean live as a priest, work as a priest] while being married.

I’ll start with the last question first.

1. I believe that you have this right. There are many men who want to ramain in active ministry and be married at the same time. That’s why they have crossed over to the Episcopal communion.
2. As to your first question, does it matter to the Church which order the events happened? The Church would certainly prefer that the person avoids scandal and complications. However, the Church’s priority is not the scandal, but the promise of celibacy. In the moral hierarchy this is the greater issue for the Church. If a priest or religious has a fling or a full-fledge affair the greatest sin is the sin against celibacy. Therefore the greatest concern of the Church is always going to be celibacy. The Church is not indifferent to the scandal, but that is minor in comparison to the celibacy issue.
3. Yes we do allow the Orthodox to receive communion at a Catholic mass if they request it.
4. We know that Fr. Cutie’s , now wife, was divorced. We do not know if she was married in the Church or if her marriage was valid. Those would have been issues that could have been dealt with had he gone through the normal process.
5. I didn’t see the show, so I don’t know if he really said this. However, I am very disappointed that he is accepting all of these intervews on TV, from day one. I knew this man. I thought that he had more character. I’m not as disappointed at the fact that he fell in love. That can happen to anyone of us and it does happen. I’m a religious in solemn vows and I know that it can happen to me. I’m no exception to human feelings. I guess what saddens me is that were I in this situation, I would value my privacy. This is hard for me. When you know someone, you can’t help but be saddened by poor choices such as going so public with all of this. But there is nothing that I can do but pray for him and his new family.

As to forgiveness, he has my forgiveness. Who am I to deny anyone my forgivness? Someday, in the not to distant future, I’m going to be needing mercy and forgiveness. You see, I have cancer. I know that at some point the only thing that you think about is, “Have I done God’s will with my life?” And you pray that you have. You won’t know for sure until you are called home. So you resign yourself to God’s mercy and the mercy and charity of your brothers and sisters here on earth. For this reason, I’m in no place to deny anyone my forgiveness or my mercy, becaue I will need the same, soon.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Disciple96]

As to forgiveness, he has my forgiveness. Who am I to deny anyone my forgivness? Someday, in the not to distant future, I’m going to be needing mercy and forgiveness. You see, I have cancer. I know that at some point the only thing that you think about is, “Have I done God’s will with my life?” And you pray that you have. You won’t know for sure until you are called home. So you resign yourself to God’s mercy and the mercy and charity of your brothers and sisters here on earth. For this reason, I’m in no place to deny anyone my forgiveness or my mercy, becaue I will need the same, soon.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I’ll be keeping him and you in my prayers, Brother.

 

[DOShea]

Br. JR,

Just wanted to take a moment to thank you for your very enlightening posts, particularly #28 and #30 in this thread. In the short time I’ve been here I’ve read many of yours and I am always struck by the love, the passion you express for your calling.

 

[rosebel]

As a catholic priest he has the moral obligation to leave the priesthood before giving up on his celebacy. As a catholic priest “celebrity”, he has a moral obligation to not be caught in public with a woman in that matter. Shame on him for going on tv trying to redeem himself and acting like he is better than the child molesters in the catholic faith. A sin is a SIN ! I wonder if he or his now wife ever went to confession in the 2 years that they carried on with their affair. What he did was a big deal and a shame to the Roman Catholic church because he was a catholic priest and a celebrity! He needs to apologize to the catholic church as a whole. His celebrity status and actions brought shame to the church. No one cares if he changes religion, if they both choose to leave and not continue as parishioners because the Catholic church denounced their actions, then good luck with his newfound way of serving God while being married. I’m sure God will forgive him for living in sin for 2 years, and for being a hypocrite at every mass he held and preached truth and honesty. I am not to judge him. All he needed to do on the Oprah show was apologize and not sensationalize his actions!

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Shame on him for going on tv trying to redeem himself and acting like he is better than the child molesters in the catholic faith.

While I probably wouldn’t use the word “better”, I would definitely say that a consenting affair between an adult man and an adult woman is definitely less evil than the victimization of a child.

 

[rosebel]

I would like to thank Brother JR for sharing this wonderful knowledge about brotherhood,priesthood,bishops,the orders, the church, etc. It is very enlightening! Thank you!

 

[manualman]

…
A religious man or woman makes a vow of chastity. He/she enters into a covenant of love with his religious family. That’s why it’s considered a marriage and there is no way that a religious can be married and a religious at the same time. Whereas a secular man can marry first and then be ordained a deacon or even a priest if the bishop allows it. In the Eastern Churches it is always allowed.

Finally, we are totally obedient to the Church. We practice silence when the Church speaks. If we disagree with the Church, we may do so in a very respsectful manner. But we must always accept the answer of the Church as the final answer. We believe that we are nothing and the Church is the voice of Christ, because she is his bride.

…

What outstanding ideals. Would that it really worked that way in reality! You HAVE met Sr. Joan Chittister, no?

 

[Sunflower15]

As a catholic priest he has the moral obligation to leave the priesthood before giving up on his celebacy. As a catholic priest “celebrity”, he has a moral obligation to not be caught in public with a woman in that matter. Shame on him for going on tv trying to redeem himself and acting like he is better than the child molesters in the catholic faith. A sin is a SIN ! I wonder if he or his now wife ever went to confession in the 2 years that they carried on with their affair. What he did was a big deal and a shame to the Roman Catholic church because he was a catholic priest and a celebrity! He needs to apologize to the catholic church as a whole. His celebrity status and actions brought shame to the church. No one cares if he changes religion, if they both choose to leave and not continue as parishioners because the Catholic church denounced their actions, then good luck with his newfound way of serving God while being married. I’m sure God will forgive him for living in sin for 2 years, and for being a hypocrite at every mass he held and preached truth and honesty. I am not to judge him. All he needed to do on the Oprah show was apologize and not sensationalize his actions!

Though I agree with you wholeheartedly, I do want to point out that previously he did apologize many times to his superiors [who apparently did not know a thing until they heard it in the news], to his parishioners - to whom he owes some respect, to all who have loved him for decades, and to God.

Whether he confessed or not, is between God and him, though we all know that if you confess while actively living in a state of sin without intention of changing…is pretty much useless…or am I wrong? That is why people who live together outside of marriage…pretty much don’t just confess every Saturday, go to communion on Sundays, and go back to their life on Sunday night…

 

[Sunflower15]

While I probably wouldn’t use the word “better”, I would definitely say that a consenting affair between an adult man and an adult woman is definitely less evil than the victimization of a child.

Definitely! In a way…

However, if pedophilia is a mental condition, a disease as alcoholism, for example. Then, the ‘freedom’ aspect and maybe even the ‘full knowledge of committing evil’ aspect may be imperfect. No?

Heavy drinking does not seem the same to an alcoholic as it seems to a non-alcoholic.
The mental disorder of pedophilia makes these acts seem different to them than they seem to us…or they wouldn’t do them!

Then,
Can’t we say that a priest who CHOOSES to act out of free will and full knowledge of a sin is more responsible than one who has a mental condition affecting his will and/or his full knowledge of his actions

Alcoholism was once believed to be a character flaw…now we know that it is a disease and treat it accordingly. We now also understand drug addictions, when before addicts were simply condemned in their character.

Some day, after more scientific studies are done on this horrible subject matter, we may realize that these men were ‘doomed to fail’ because it would be akin to placing an alcoholic in charge of a bar and expecting him to not drink EVER!

Those in charge, back when these things were happening 40-60 years ago, did not have the info to understand either, nor to know how to solve the problem, and simply moved them around.

ALSO, most ‘children’ were older than 15-16 and male. I think the image we all get is of an innocent 5 yr old, who has no idea of what’s going on nor has the physical strength to combat it.

My teenage sons would have maimed a priest for much less…[they are wrestlers]. However, please do NOT think I am misplacing blame and responsibility. The minor is NEVER the responsible party when dealing with an adult of any sort. I’m just clarifying misconceptions.

So, who is more morally culpable in your opinion, the pedophile or the ‘consensual’ fornicator?

 

[Sunflower15]

I’ll start with the last question first.
…
2. As to your first question, does it matter to the Church which order the events happened? The Church would certainly prefer that the person avoids scandal and complications. However, the Church’s priority is not the scandal, but the promise of celibacy. In the moral hierarchy this is the greater issue for the Church. If a priest or religious has a fling or a full-fledge affair the greatest sin is the sin against celibacy. Therefore the greatest concern of the Church is always going to be celibacy. The Church is not indifferent to the scandal, but that is minor in comparison to the celibacy issue.

I like the fact that the Church cares more about a promise to God than about scandal to the church…
…
5. I didn’t see the show, so I don’t know if he really said this. However, I am very disappointed that he is accepting all of these intervews on TV, from day one. I knew this man. I thought that he had more character. I’m not as disappointed at the fact that he fell in love. That can happen to anyone of us and it does happen. I’m a religious in solemn vows and I know that it can happen to me. I’m no exception to human feelings. I guess what saddens me is that were I in this situation, I would value my privacy. This is hard for me. When you know someone, you can’t help but be saddened by poor choices such as going so public with all of this. But there is nothing that I can do but pray for him and his new family.
I feel the same way. I have affection for him, though I don’t know him personally. I am more heart-broken than offended, really. I know evil sometimes makes simple things seem complicated and confusing. It can happen to anyone. I haven’t even argued against the falling in love- I agree that it can happen to anyone and it is actually a gift from the Holy Spirit always, because HE is the source of love. Just that the steps taken, before and after, could have been different and simpler. Yes, the publicity makes no sense. He is publicly ‘attacking’ in a subtle way, the same Mother Church that he served for two decades…but at this time, he doesn’t seem able to see this clearly enough.
I am VERY grateful for those 2 decades of service, keeping from public scandal, as he did prior to this situation.

As to forgiveness, he has my forgiveness. Who am I to deny anyone my forgivness? Someday, in the not to distant future, I’m going to be needing mercy and forgiveness. You see, I have cancer. I know that at some point the only thing that you think about is, “Have I done God’s will with my life?” And you pray that you have. You won’t know for sure until you are called home. So you resign yourself to God’s mercy and the mercy and charity of your brothers and sisters here on earth. For this reason, I’m in no place to deny anyone my forgiveness or my mercy, becaue I will need the same, soon.

Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF

I will pray for you as well. And, I DO appreciate your wonderful posts, patiently teaching us SO thoroughly about things we really do not know about, but should. I love Fr. Francis, St. Anthony of Padua, and Padre Pio…I actually talk to them, because I feel them so close. * I am sure they comfort you in your adversity, as do the angels, and especially Our Lady and the Divine Mercy. ** Bask in the love! *** Pax Christi.

 

[CLMCatholic]

Br. JR,

Just wanted to take a moment to thank you for your very enlightening posts, particularly #28 and #30 in this thread. In the short time I’ve been here I’ve read many of yours and I am always struck by the love, the passion you express for your calling.

I second that sentiment (actually, I may be third or even fourth )

Thank you JReducation. I have always learned much from your patient, articulate, and very careful explanations. In addition, I am always humbled by your frequent reminders to the “rest of us” to be neither judgmental, nor accusational. A Bible-study leader/friend of mine used to remind all of us that “there is no sin that any of us is not capable of committing”. I wish it were not so. But I do recognize the truth in that statement. So when you remind us of the weakness and humanity inherent in each of us, it is a good reminder that “there but for the grace of God, go I”.

Thank you for your lessons. Thank you for your patience. Thank you for your service.
And God Bless,

CLM
<><

 

[JReducation]

Thank you all for your expressions of gratitude. It is not my work. It is his work. They are his thoughts. All of us are just students. I often wonder why God allows me to share these things since he knows that I don’t deserve these graces. Then I realize that he allows it because others deserve them. I am even more humbled and more educated, because God uses us in ways that we do not deserve to be used, because we are sinful, but he is merciful. As I always say to our brothers and to anyone who will listen, “God is good.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[cmodrmac]

The anglican Church is the 3rd largest Christian Body-the Episcopal Church is part of the Anglican Community-the whole issue of valid orders for the Episcopal Church is somewhat murky-they clearly had valid orders during the Reformation (where they did not adopt all of the Reforms) and quite likely do have valid orders now-they also often use for ordination of Bishops- Bishops of the “Old Catholic Church” which even the Vatican agrees has valid orders -Pope Leo declared their orders invalid for reasons that are not clear at all and look political in nature

Don’t be too hard on Episcopaleans -they are the closest group to the Roman catholics and the Orthodx Churches have a strong relationship with them-the Orthodox accept their orders as valid -even as the RC accepts the Orthodox as valid

Politics and nastiness often come out in RC when anyone questions their statements-a lot of this is understandable-Fr. Cuite should have left the Priesthood to marry rather than getting caught as he was-there are a number of former RC Priests who now serve as Priests in the Episcopal Church

Traffic is two way on the RC and ECUSA street

 

[Disciple96]

The anglican Church is the 3rd largest Christian Body-the Episcopal Church is part of the Anglican Community-the whole issue of valid orders for the Episcopal Church is somewhat murky-they clearly had valid orders during the Reformation (where they did not adopt all of the Reforms) and quite likely do have valid orders now-they also often use for ordination of Bishops- Bishops of the “Old Catholic Church” which even the Vatican agrees has valid orders -Pope Leo declared their orders invalid for reasons that are not clear at all and look political in nature

Don’t be too hard on Episcopaleans -they are the closest group to the Roman catholics and the Orthodx Churches have a strong relationship with them-the Orthodox accept their orders as valid -even as the RC accepts the Orthodox as valid

Politics and nastiness often come out in RC when anyone questions their statements-a lot of this is understandable-Fr. Cuite should have left the Priesthood to marry rather than getting caught as he was-there are a number of former RC Priests who now serve as Priests in the Episcopal Church

Traffic is two way on the RC and ECUSA street

Um…I am not saying this in a haughty or angry or smug tone, I’m just sayin’: I think that a lot of the politicalness of the situation has its roots in the roots of the situation, ie, in the very founding and existence of the Anglican church. Its hard to ignore the fact that King Henry threw a tantrum because he could not get the divorce he wanted, so he didn’t just leave the Church, he started a new one. Once one begins to turn away, one soon breaks away, and then the breaking away continues until we have the situation we have now. It’s like watching a cell divide, it just goes on dividing. But it’s really hard, I think, to argue that there isn’t a pretty big problem bringing the communions back in Communion. I wish we could. I wish we could all be one as our Lord commanded us. I truly do wish it and I pray for it every day in my morning offering.

Peace be with you, cmodrmac!

 

[DOShea]

Thank you all for your expressions of gratitude. It is not my work. It is his work. They are his thoughts. All of us are just students. I often wonder why God allows me to share these things since he knows that I don’t deserve these graces. Then I realize that he allows it because others deserve them. I am even more humbled and more educated, because God uses us in ways that we do not deserve to be used, because we are sinful, but he is merciful. As I always say to our brothers and to anyone who will listen, “God is good.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Yes He surely is, Br. JR.

In some of my deepest contemplative moments, when I would wonder why God was moving in my life in such a rich way, or why I was blessed with something I know I certainly didn’t deserve, the thought would always come to me of the sharp contrast between the lives of Daniel and Moses or David. In our limited human understanding, we can make sense out of why God would provide such a faithful servant as Daniel with protection and prophet gifts, but the other two committed murder and more, yet received equal or better favor. Why? I can only understand that in terms of God having a plan for all of us, meaning each and every one of us, and there is no sinner or scoundrel too unworthy in His eyes that he can’t be used in a way that helps achieve that Divine purpose. It brings me real peace to know that while I deserve to stand closest to the murderer than the Daniel, I can still receive His gift of purpose, that being His Will.

The real culmination of these thoughts come to me in the story in Genesis of Joseph, son of Jacob, after years of rejection, betrayal, false witness, rising above every calamity, he stands in front of Pharaoh with every opportunity to finally claim something for himself, but remains humble and paraphrases your own response above with four simple words… “It’s not in me.”

 

[thequeen]

With former priests like this I am thankful for the priests that we have that are faithful to their vocations and take their vows seriously even though the I do not really care for the head priest at my own parish I do appreciate the fact that he takes the vocation of the priesthood seriously and he his some one that I trust totally

 

[JReducation]

With former priests like this I am thankful for the priests that we have that are faithful to their vocations and take their vows seriously even though the I do not really care for the head priest at my own parish I do appreciate the fact that he takes the vocation of the priesthood seriously and he his some one that I trust totally

Here is a Franciscan interpretation of Aquinas, LOL. Aquinas would remind us that we have to go from the head to the heart. It’s not just how we see things and how we interpret them that matters. Ideas do not save. It is how we love, forgive, and remember that we are no better than the sinner who is public. The difference between him and us is that our sin is not publicly known. What would happen if it were?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF