I am a Mary worshipper

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Racer X:
They know what the word “worship” means and our explanation just looks like redefining the word worship to suit our needs—which it is.
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Three words: latria, dulia, hyper-dulia. 😉
 
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scm:
Yes, flatly.
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I don’t follow your comments after this, scm.

Are you really saying that if another religion contained a woman who had been elevated to Queen of Heaven and who was the mother of their supreme deity and appeared to mystics, etc., that we outsiders would not identify her as a goddess?

Are you really saying that if they built shrines to her and made pilgrimages and prayed to her, we would not describe that as worship?

If they became Christians, would we not tell them that they had to abandon that worship? But what if they said, “but we are not really *worshipping *her, it is just veneration?”
 
I think we have our technical definitions squared away now. However, that being said, I’d still say, given the narrow interpretation of worship that exists in this culture (including Catholics), it is prudent to avoid using the word carelessly. It can give the wrong impression if you are not going to bother explaining yourself. Better to err on the side of caution when it comes to scandal. Even Paul said that when it came to meat sacrificed to idols.

rich
 
Racer, you’ve missed some fundamental and patently clear differences.

I suggest that you actually read the other thread and re-read this one. The other thread is about as clear as it can possibly be and yet you insist.

Why you would start this one before you even address the arguments in the first is beyond me, but I’m not liking my suspicions.

If you are a Mary worshipper as you say, you are clearly not a Catholic in your thought and practice.

In two threads, you’re now playing games with words and promoting heretical notions.

Elizabeth
 
Racer X:
In So how is the Blessed Virgin Mary not a goddess? one of the main points made is that we (Catholics) do not worship Mary. I think it is a serious mistake in apologetics say that we do not worship her. Anyone outside of the Catholic Church can see that we do worship her. To reply to them that it only looks like worship but is not *really *worship just undermines our credibility. They know what the word “worship” means and our explanation just looks like redefining the word worship to suit our needs—which it is.

But this finagling is unnecessary. The relationship between the words worship, veneration and adoration is:

- Adoration is the worship properly due to God alone, veneration is the worship appropriate to the saints.

See the Catholic Encyclopedia articles on Worship, Christian, which begins thus:

and continues

The worship due God alone is properly called Adoration.

Some might say that the usage of “worship” has changed since the Catholic Encyclopedia, but I see no evidence for that. All that is happened is that recently Catholics have tried to sweep an uncomfortable question under the rug… and quite unnecessarily.

So the next time you are accused of worshipping Mary, say, “Yes, I do but not with the sort of worship that may be given to God alone.” Or simply, “Yes. And…?” That may lead to a conversation that will help them actually understand the distinction. On the other hand, what are they to make of denial of worshipping her when they can see it with their own eyes?
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Racer X:

Thanks for the information. However, as you can see, even us Catholics become scandalized by such a proposition. :nope: Believe me, I understand where you are coming from. I understand what you are saying. However, if someone doesn’t understand the different meanings of the word “worship”, it becomes very hard to drive the point accross that Mary and the saints are due worship (hyperdulia, dulia, respectively). The reason is that the definition of this word over time has been limited and equated to “adore”, which is due only to God.

It creates a lot of confusion if, in this age in which we live, we start saying that we “worship” Mary. I really don’t think we should do this, simply because of the possibility of creating scandal :bigyikes: . It would take a lot of explaining and all, that would otherwise be unnecessary.

I agree, that if a Protestant were to come to you and say: “You Catholics use the word worship when refering to Mary in some prayers”, you then would be obligated to explain the difference in semantics and the historical background of the meanings of the word “worship” to the Protestant brother or sister. I can accept that, but not to go around saying that you worship Mary. No, No, No… :tsktsk: We can’t ignore the present connotation of that word. That would produce scandal, and is not in the best interest of our brothers and sisters. We must be humble :yup: .

Jorge.
 
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UnworthySoul:
Play with semantics all you want, but I as a Catholic do not worship Mary and never will.
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That’s fine. I believe it is not required for salvation.
To suggest doing so is heresy.
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Not so.

newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm (Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913)
As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).
 
I have to say that I do agree with Racer here in that we do worship Mary, when understood in the proper way. like this:

"- Adoration is the worship properly due to God alone, veneration is the worship appropriate to the saints."

However, the English understanding of the word “worship” today is far different than before and that would just cause too much confusion to non-catholic christians. Why create obstacles to understanding among non-Catholic Christians?
 
Racer X:
Are you really saying that if another religion contained a woman who had been elevated to Queen of Heaven and who was the mother of their supreme deity and appeared to mystics, etc., that we outsiders would not identify her as a goddess?

Are you really saying that if they built shrines to her and made pilgrimages and prayed to her, we would not describe that as worship?

If they became Christians, would we not tell them that they had to abandon that worship? But what if they said, “but we are not really *worshipping *her, it is just veneration?”
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Mary is not the Queen of Heaven. She is the Queen Mother. Big difference. The Queen Mother is simply mother to the ruling king or queen, but is not a queen herself.

Mary was the earthly mother of the incarnation of Jesus. She is not the mother of the Trinity. She is no goddess. She is an earthly creation who was very devout in her faith and obedient to God. Her cooperation with God enabled her to be a very big part of God’s plan of salvation. She deserves honor for that. And her prayers accomplish much, so it is appropriate to ask her to pray for us.

I see some Catholics that cross the line, giving Mary more than just veneration. Not only is that blasphemous, but it alienates Protestants that may otherwise be open to learning about Catholicism.
 
Racer X:
In So how is the Blessed Virgin Mary not a goddess? one of the main points made is that we (Catholics) do not worship Mary. I think it is a serious mistake in apologetics say that we do not worship her. Anyone outside of the Catholic Church can see that we do worship her. To reply to them that it only looks like worship but is not *really *worship just undermines our credibility. They know what the word “worship” means and our explanation just looks like redefining the word worship to suit our needs—which it is.

But this finagling is unnecessary. The relationship between the words worship, veneration and adoration is:

- Adoration is the worship properly due to God alone, veneration is the worship appropriate to the saints.

See the Catholic Encyclopedia articles on Worship, Christian, which begins thus:

and continues

The worship due God alone is properly called Adoration.

Some might say that the usage of “worship” has changed since the Catholic Encyclopedia, but I see no evidence for that. All that is happened is that recently Catholics have tried to sweep an uncomfortable question under the rug… and quite unnecessarily.

So the next time you are accused of worshipping Mary, say, “Yes, I do but not with the sort of worship that may be given to God alone.” Or simply, “Yes. And…?” That may lead to a conversation that will help them actually understand the distinction. On the other hand, what are they to make of denial of worshipping her when they can see it with their own eyes?
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RacerX:
**Of course we do worship Mary in the sense that she is under God, not equal nor over him. The real meaning of the word “worship” is honor and respect. However, now since language has changed and people tend to think that the word “worship” means honor only to a God or Goddess, I wouldn’t want to go around saying that I worship Mary especially in a society with a protestant majority. I would rather say “honor” or “adore” when discribing Marian devotion. **
The proper word for honor only to a God or Goddess in the pagan sense is “idolatry.” Idolatry is when you replace the one true God with a false God or Goddess. Worship (honor) to saints is not Idolatry since we acknowlegde that they pray for us and with us to the triune God which is the supreme being.
 
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petra:
Mary is not the Queen of Heaven. She is the Queen Mother. Big difference. The Queen Mother is simply mother to the ruling king or queen, but is not a queen herself.

Mary was the earthly mother of the incarnation of Jesus. She is not the mother of the Trinity. She is no goddess. She is an earthly creation who was very devout in her faith and obedient to God. Her cooperation with God enabled her to be a very big part of God’s plan of salvation. She deserves honor for that. And her prayers accomplish much, so it is appropriate to ask her to pray for us.

I see some Catholics that cross the line, giving Mary more than just veneration. Not only is that blasphemous, but it alienates Protestants that may otherwise be open to learning about Catholicism.
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**Wrong! Mary is the Queen of Heaven and Earth! The Queen is always below the King. The King is Christ. Why do you think the Book of Revelation mentions the following: **
God’s temple in heaven was opened,
and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple.

A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun,
with the moon under her feet,
and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.
Then another sign appeared in the sky;
it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns,
and on its heads were seven diadems.
Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky
and hurled them down to the earth.
Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth,
to devour her child when she gave birth.
She gave birth to a son, a male child,
destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.
Her child was caught up to God and his throne.
The woman herself fled into the desert
where she had a place prepared by God.

-Rev 11:19a; 12:1-6a, 10ab (NAB)

Taken from the first Reading of the feast of Assumption.

Source: usccb.org/nab/081505.htm

**Remember that Heaven is not the same as a worldly monarchy. In Heaven, Christ is King and God. Mary is Queen and mother of Christ and the wife of the Holy Spirit. **
It’s much different and hard to understand to some people.
 
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Superstar905:
However, the English understanding of the word “worship” today is far different than before and that would just cause too much confusion to non-catholic christians. Why create obstacles to understanding among non-Catholic Christians?
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I firmly disagree with this statement. The word has not changed. As I have pointed out repeatedly and no one has answered yet, if devotions identical to that which we offer Mary were practiced by another religion, we ourselves would not hesitate to recognize it as worship.

Catholics are just trying to circumvent or hide the “obstacle” by playing a word game. And Protestants see right through it. Google “worship mary” and you will see what they think of it. Not only do they condemn the practice but then they also laugh at our attempts to wriggle away from it in dialogue.

It would be better to defend our faith squarely and unequivocally. “Yes we do and here is why it is true and good” will earn their respect better than “well, it just *looks *like X but it is not *really *X.”

With the logic of my critics here, next we will abandoning the word “pray” because Protestants mean by that word something which should be done towards God alone too.
 
I believe in Latin American countries and parts of Mexico Catholics do worship Mary. By this they become so enamored with her, that their prayers are almost exclusively directed to her more so than to Christ himself. Of course that is my opinion.
Code: 
                           But in North America we recognize Mary as sort of the Super Mediator, who we can come to in prayer and she will make known our requests to her Son. Thus going to Mary first,  kind of gets Christ attention,  more than if we went to Christ directly. Much to has been made of wearing the "brown scapular" of Mary when buried to be released from purgatory? I have searched the early church fathers for any such teaching and none ever wrote of such a practice? 

                           I do believe in "the communion of all the saints" in heaven and not just Mary. We ask all the saints who have gone before us in mass to pray for us. But to narrow out our prayer requests exclusively to Mary alone for mediation does not square with early church tradition. It's kind of like asking Derek Jeter of the New York Yankees alone for assistance in learning about baseball, when I could ask the WHOLE team, including Joe Torre as well if I wanted. I rather have the WHOLE body of saints pulling for me. Do you see my point? I believe this is also stated in the Nicene creed. 

                             I guess I have been rambling on here. So try to understand why I feel the way I do. Thanks.
 
I agree – you can play with semantics all you want, but I as a Catholic do not worship Mary and never will. To suggest doing so is heresy.

Why would you do something the that Blessed Mother herself would FROWN ON?

Devotion, honor, veneration yes, but WORSHIP-- no!

Blessings,
Joanie
 
Joanie
I do not say all Catholics worship Mary, but many do in Latin American countries and in Mexico. More devotion is given to Mary than to her own Son. That is the problem I take issue with. When more devotion is shown to a heavenly creature, than to the Son of God himself, then that being is being worshiped, plain and simple.
 
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GodBlessJoanie:
I agree – you can play with semantics all you want, but I as a Catholic do not worship Mary and never will.
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This is my point. It is those who say “it is not worship, it is veneration” who are playing a “semantics” game. And if you do not want to worship Mary, that is probably fine. Your salvation does not depend on it, even though I do think proper worship of Mary is good and well received by our Lord.
 
Racer X:
This is my point. It is those who say “it is not worship, it is veneration” who are playing a “semantics” game. And if you do not want to worship Mary, that is probably fine. Your salvation does not depend on it, even though I do think proper worship of Mary is good and well received by our Lord.
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YOU are the one who is playing with words and ignoring the basic, very-simple-to-understand concepts.

**You are committing grave sin if you are worshipping Mary as a pagan worships one of their goddesses. **

And you are committing a grave sin to attempt to lead one of Jesus’ own astray. Something about a “millstone” and “cast into the sea?” Ring a bell?

If you’re Catholic, I’m a dill pickle. Garlic. Extra-crunchy. :rolleyes:

Elizabeth
 
Racer X:
I firmly disagree with this statement. The word has not changed. As I have pointed out repeatedly and no one has answered yet, if devotions identical to that which we offer Mary were practiced by another religion, we ourselves would not hesitate to recognize it as worship.

Catholics are just trying to circumvent or hide the “obstacle” by playing a word game. And Protestants see right through it. Google “worship mary” and you will see what they think of it. Not only do they condemn the practice but then they also laugh at our attempts to wriggle away from it in dialogue.

It would be better to defend our faith squarely and unequivocally. “Yes we do and here is why it is true and good” will earn their respect better than “well, it just *looks *like X but it is not *really *X.”

With the logic of my critics here, next we will abandoning the word “pray” because Protestants mean by that word something which should be done towards God alone too.
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Racer, I never said the word itself has changed, but the understanding of it has, and you can’t deny this.

So, by using different terminology to hit home the proper understanding, is a good thing and removes obstacles non-Catholics have.

So what is your issue? It doesn’t change a truth, or diminish the honour Mary deserves, I just don’t get why you are so bent out of shape over this.

As for how people in other religions view this honour (veneration) bestowed on Mary, I don’t disagree, however that comes with an incomplete understanding. Using terminology as it’s understood today for teaching purposes is highly intelligent and advisable, and kudo’s to the vatican for recognizing that in the Catechism.

It’s more work to use the word “worship” and to explain afterwards what you mean, than to use a different word that is more easily understood…problem is I guess, I think either way an explanation would be required but at least a different word provides a distinction.
 
RacerX,
Give it a break. I know what you mean. The posters that posted earlier against it, clearly did not read the entire thread first and the Catholic encyclopedia reference neither did they try to look up the definition of the word “worship” in the dictionary. Neither did they read the CA tract on it.
Webster’s Dictionary (a more secular definition):
Main Entry: 1wor·ship
Pronunciation: 'w&r-sh&p
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English *worshipe *worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English *weorthscipe *worthiness, respect, from *weorth *worthy, worth + *-scipe *-ship
1 chiefly British : a person of importance – used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem

Source: webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary
However, I’m not going to say “let’s worship Mary” when I can use the word “honor” or “adore” to avoid a huge debate. If someone tells me that Catholics worship Mary and that it’s wrong, I’m not going to tell them no, but point out to them that the word worship doesn’t mean honor only to God, it means simply honor.
 
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