I am a Mary worshipper

[Racer_X]

Superstar905:

So what is your issue? It doesn’t change a truth, or diminish the honour Mary deserves, I just don’t get why you are so bent out of shape over this.

(1) I do not see that the word–its connotation, or whatever–has changed. I do not see any distinction between proper-to-God worship and “non-worship” being made in any other case, religious or otherwise, except with regard to devotion to saints. That is contrived and bordering on intellectual dishonesty.

(2) It embarrasses me as a Catholic every time I see it done. During my conversion I spent a lot of time on primarily anti-Catholic boards while discerning the truth of the Catholic Faith (testing it, so to speak) and from experience I can say that this only-looks-like-worship-but-is-not-really-worship approach is big failure as a tactic of defense of the faith. It is ridiculed.

 

[Racer_X]

RacerX,

**Give it a break. **

Consider it broke. Thank you all for the responses. Sorry if I did not reply to all the comments addressed to me.

 

[ElizabethJoy]

It is ridiculed

And that proves… what, exactly?

Jesus himself was ridiculed in the vilest of manner when he was on earth. It didn’t make him stop telling the truth - His truth.

His disciples were ridiculed, tortured, hung on a cross, burned in fires and shot through with arrows. His disciples kept on telling His truth.

His Church has been mocked and ridiculed and persecuted for two millenia (you are just one in an endless procession of those contributing to it) but she has continued to tell His truth.

**Do you think that your repetitious accusation is going to prove a falsehood that’s been repeated to no avail for two thousand years? **

Your attempts to mock God do not harm Him. You are like a child having a temper tantrum - flailing about with your fists and heels against the floor - and to no effect upon what is.

When you see the bruises on your own soul from this tantrum, you will know that you have only hurt yourself. (BTDT - had the same tantrums and bruises of my own.)

Elizabeth

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

RacerX,

Give it a break. I know what you mean. The posters that posted earlier against it, clearly did not read the entire thread first and the Catholic encyclopedia reference neither did they try to look up the definition of the word “worship” in the dictionary…

Yes, I have.

 

[Franz]

quote=Racer X I do not see that the word–its connotation, or whatever–has changed. I do not see any distinction between proper-to-God worship and “non-worship” being made in any other case, religious or otherwise, except with regard to devotion to saints. That is contrived and bordering on intellectual dishonesty.

(2) It embarrasses me as a Catholic every time I see it done. During my conversion I spent a lot of time on primarily anti-Catholic boards while discerning the truth of the Catholic Faith (testing it, so to speak) and from experience I can say that this only-looks-like-worship-but-is-not-really-worship approach is big failure as a tactic of defense of the faith. It is ridiculed.
[/quote]

I think, that just by this thread alone, that you can see that the understanding of the word worship, in todays society, to the average layman, is the worship due to God alone. Just read this entire thread!!!

Although most understand that you can literally say you worship Mary in the sense that’s properly understood, its not understood properly by most people and automatically it would seem as if you are affirming to worship Mary as a deity, which I know you don’t do. I understand where you are coming from, but it is the wrong approach, IMHO.

 

[Axion]

Racer X:

Are you really saying that if another religion contained a woman who had been elevated to Queen of Heaven and who was the mother of their supreme deity and appeared to mystics, etc., that we outsiders would not identify her as a goddess?

They might. But they would be doing so wrongly.

Christianity has ONE God - Three in One. That is the limit of deity. In fact it is **vital ** to Christianity that Mary is human and not divine.

If appearing to humans from heaven denotes deity, then Moses and Elijah are divine - along with the angels.

Are you really saying that if they built shrines to her and made pilgrimages and prayed to her, we would not describe that as worship?

Does building a “shrine” denote godhood? There are plenty of shrines to US Presidents, politicians, film and rock stars. There are “shrines” to great events like Magna Carta or the declaration of Independence. Because we choose to remember a great event or great person in a particular place, and then visit that place does not mean we are deifying that person or event. Go to a Marian shrine and you will see Mary prominent and honoured. But the WORSHIP there will be Mass or benediction and centred firmly on God. As far as prayer goes, that is intercession, and has been discussed many times.

If they became Christians, would we not tell them that they had to abandon that worship? But what if they said, “but we are not really *worshipping *her, it is just veneration?”

Would we care? Our goal is to have them worship the One true God, not to go into whether they were worshipping or venerating someone in their old faith. As Christians does it concern us that someone outside Sikhism might think that some Sikhs worshipped Guru Nanak?

The point is that Veneration of Mary or the Saints is not (latria) divine worship. Every Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic or other Apostolic Christian knows the difference between Mary and God. Mary is a gift of God who is justly honoured for her unique role in the history of salvation.

 

[MilesJesu]

RacerX,

I read the citation you posted from the Catholic Encyclopedia. I think the answer to your difficulty if found in the first sentence:

“The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, “honour”; from worth, meaning “value”, “dignity”, “price”, and the termination, ship; Lat. cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing. In this sense we may speak of hero-worship, worship of the emperor, of demons, of the angels, even of relics, and especially of the Cross.”

In this definition, the term worship is described and used in a general sense which is absent the key ingredient of “adoration.” The objection thus far is to equate adoration (worship) with Mary is strictly forbidden by the Scriptures (1st Commandment) and also by the Catechism of the Catholic Church…

Cont…

 

[MilesJesu]

cont…

The CCC states:

[970](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/970.htm’) "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514
[971](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/971.htm’) “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517

IF you wish to equate adoration with Mary, than it cannot be called Catholic. If you call it semantics, I think you miss the true meaning of Marian Dogma. The encylical “Mother of the Redeemer” is an excellent starting point.

Peace,

MilesJesu

 

[Psalm45_9]

In the archaic definition of the English word, “worship”, it also meant to honor. Back at the time of the reformation, people could say worship Mary and the Saints and no one would have an issue. However, since the reformation, the English language has changed, worship became a word associated with God alone. Becuase of this, the term veneration of the Saints is more correct, given how most people; especially anti-Catholics, don’t know all of the definitions of the word “worship.”

 

[batteddy]

"We are not to worship gods with little “g’s either. That is right in the Bible.”

Actually, we do. At least we should. I agree, let’s stop playing the symantics game to appease the Protestants.

The Bible, and Tradition…especially that of the early Eastern Fathers…makes it clear that we will become gods with little g’s, and the saints in heaven already are.

In his 1995 Apostolic letter on the Eastern Catholic Churches, Pope John Paul II discussed this and reiterated the Church’s teachings on the “divinization” of man. We must remember that Christ came to share in our humanity that we might partake of his divinity.

From the Pope’s letter:

“Everyone knows with what love the Eastern Christians celebrate the sacred liturgy, especially the Eucharistic mystery, source of the Church’s life and pledge of future glory. In this mystery the faithful, united with their Bishops, have access to God the Father through the Son, the Word made flesh who suffered and was glorified, in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. And so made ‘sharers of the divine nature’ (2 Pt 1:4) they enter into communion with the most holy Trinity.”

These features describe the Eastern outlook of the Christian. His or her goal is participation in the divine nature through communion with the mystery of the Holy Trinity. In this view the Father’s “monarchy” is outlined as well as the concept of salvation according to the divine plan, as it is presented by Eastern theology after Saint Irenaeus of Lyons and which spread among the Cappadocian Fathers.

Participation in Trinitarian life takes place through the liturgy and in a special way through the Eucharist, the mystery of communion with the glorified body of Christ, the seed of innmortality. In divinization and particularly in the sacraments, Eastern theology attributes a very special role to the Holy Spirit: through the power of the Spirit who dwells in man, deification already begins on earth; the creature is transfigured and God’s kingdom inaugurated.

The teaching of the Cappadocian Fathers on **divinization **passed into the tradition of all the Eastern Churches and is part of their common heritage. This can be summarized in the thought already expressed by Saint Irenaeus at the end of the second century: God passed into man so that man might pass over to God. This theology of divinization remains one of the achievements particularly dear to Eastern Christian thought. [15] On this path of divinization, those who have been made “most Christ-like” by grace and by commitment to the way of goodness go before us: the martyrs and the saints. And the Virgin Mary occupies an altogether special place among them. From her the shoot of Jesse sprang (cf. Is 11:1). Her figure is not only the Mother who waits for us, but the Most Pure who–the fulfillment of so many Old Testament prefigurations–is an icon of the Church, the symbol and anticipation of humanity transfigured by grace the model and the unfailing hope for all those who direct their steps towards the heavenly Jerusalem."

The footnote [15] from above is as follows:

“Grafted on Christ, “men become gods and children of God, … the dust is raised to such a degree of glory that it is now equal in honour and godliness to the divine nature” Nicholas Cabasilas, Life in Christ, I: PG 150, 505.”

But we must remember that there is a huge difference between the connotations of a “god” with a lower-case g, which is basically just a super-human, and the upper-case G; God the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Creator and Self-Existent First Principal.

I know that the connotation of worship has changed, and that worship now sometimes implies only what is due to God. But as another poster pointed out…I think this is not because Protestants have reserved the term “worship” for God…but because they have begun to slip into offering God only dulia, and not latria.

If they can no longer make the dulia/latria distinction…they are offering God something less, and viewing him as something less…much like the pagan gods were concieved of on more of the same level as our Saints than on the level of our Almighty God.

If they can no longer make the god/God distinction…then they have lost sight of what God is.

Our Saints have been given a level of power and glory equal to the pagan gods, with a lower-case g. But our Almighty GOD, is an altogether different philosophical conception. He is the Perfect Being. Infinite. Eternal. Incorporal. Not subject to passions. Omnipotent. Omniscient. The word “god” with a lower-case g implies none of these things. As I pointed out, it basically implies a super-creature.

The Greek gods gave birth to other gods and were greedy and trickable for crying out loud!

They were not Gods with a capital G. And niether are our Saints. But they are, for all practical AND theological purposes, gods and godesses with a lowercase g.

And as such, they recieve the worship (dulia) due to gods. But not the ADORATION (latria) due to God.

 

[batteddy]

To water down our terminology and weaken the truth of the divinization of man…is to appease the protestants.

They aren’t afraid to say it in the East, and niether should we be.

The saints in heaven, by sharing in the divine nature through santifying grace, have “become gods and children of God,”…and we give them the worship and veneration due to gods!!! We ourselves hope to someday become gods through the grace of the One Triune God!!

But we adore the One God with the worship due not only to super-human creatures, but to the Supreme, Self-Existent Being!

We should not fear to declare that Mary is a goddess with a lower-case g, or to say that we worship her…as long as we make it clear that she is most certainly NOT the Supreme Being or Creator.

 

[piety101]

You are way wrong in saying the saints in heaven, including Mary are divine or gods. This smacks at Mormonism. For one to be God or divine, one would have no beginning. All the saints including Mary are CREATED beings. God was and is un created or unbegotten.There are only three personalities that comprise the ONE God and it shall always be so. Also the prophet Isaiah said before me there was no god and AFTER ME there shall be no god either.

 

[petra]

**Wrong! Mary is the Queen of Heaven and Earth! The Queen is always below the King. The King is Christ. Why do you think the Book of Revelation mentions the following: **

---

God’s temple in heaven was opened,
and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple.

A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun,
with the moon under her feet,
and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.
Then another sign appeared in the sky;
it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns,
and on its heads were seven diadems.
Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky
and hurled them down to the earth.
Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth,
to devour her child when she gave birth.
She gave birth to a son, a male child,
destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.
Her child was caught up to God and his throne.
The woman herself fled into the desert
where she had a place prepared by God.

-Rev 11:19a; 12:1-6a, 10ab (NAB)

Taken from the first Reading of the feast of Assumption.

Source: usccb.org/nab/081505.htm

**Remember that Heaven is not the same as a worldly monarchy. In Heaven, Christ is King and God. Mary is Queen and mother of Christ and the wife of the Holy Spirit. **
It’s much different and hard to understand to some people.

Christ is King, and Mary is Queen Mother. She is not herself a Queen because she is not Christ’s wife, she is His mother. What did you anticpate the passage in Revelation proving? I see the mother of Christ in that passage.

 

[MilesJesu]

Bat Teddy,

I think you may be taking the “partakers in the divine nature” a little out of context. We will not become Gods (or gods) in an of ourselves. The key distinction that is being overlooked is the part in the CCC about, “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer;”

Are we not all created? Even Mary? To count her along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer goes against the true teachings of the Chruch as expressed through the Catechism.

Do you take issue with what the Church teaches in the Catechism? If the CCC takes issue to distinguish between adoration and veneration, is it a “cop-out” or a necessary distinction?

Peace,

MilesJesu

 

[batteddy]

“You are way wrong in saying the saints in heaven, including Mary are divine or gods.”

We are not saying that they are, strictly speaking, “divine”. But they are gods (with the lower-case g). They are not God (with the upper-case G), but they do share in the divine trinitarian life through sanctifying grace.

“This smacks at Mormonism.”

And what you say smacks of fundamentalist protestantism. The difference between the Mormons and us is that the Mormons have no God (with a capital g). They only have gods (with the lower-case g). We have both a Supreme God, and lesser gods (with the lower-case g).

“For one to be God or divine, one would have no beginning”

I agree. That is why the Mormons have no God (upper-case g) and only have gods…their “God” is a creature of another “God”!

I do not claim that the saints are “God” or “divine” however. What I and those arguing my position are saying is that the saints are gods with a lower-case g. The Eastern Fathers and Pope John Paul clearly agreed.

“All the saints including Mary are CREATED beings. God was and is un created or unbegotten”

Exactly! And thats why they only get the worship of dulia, while God gets the worship of latria. That is why they, as gods, have only the lower-case g…but the One Almighty God gets the upper-case G.

If you people are going to do “drive by” posting and scream at us for alledgedly being heretics because you see the sentence “the saints in heaven are gods we worship” at least have the courtesy to take the time to read the rest of our post and consider our points. I think you will be pleasently surprised.

 

[javelin]

I think everyone here needs to take a deep breath and slow down a bit.

I think I completely understand RacerX’s point, and it really does make sense – to a point.

He IS NOT saying that we should place Mary on the same plane as God and treat her the same (whatever word you want to use).

Nor is he saying that we should tell others that we place Mary equal to God. So don’t reply with quotes to refute that!

All he is saying is that we Catholics can easily look *from an outsider’s perspective *like we are just playing word games by claiming that we don’t worship Mary when all of our good practices of Marian devotion look to them exactly like how they define the word “worship”. Remember, an outsider (protestant or otherwise) couldn’t care less what the Catechism says. They look at our practice, and base their judgements on that. RacerX’s point is that any outsider would be completely justified categorizing our devotion to Mary as “worship” because that is exactly what it looks like – to an outsider.

What we need to do is figure out the best way to educate them.

His thought was, instead of denying that we worship Mary, thereby assuming that “worship” to them means the adoration rightly given to God alone, agree that we do “worship” her, and use that as the opportunity to discuss the different meanings of the word “worship”, which includes the ultra-important distinction that a certain kind of worship (true adoration) is given to God alone, and not to Mary.

An interesting idea that would probably work with some, but completely miss on others.

No matter what course you choose, the task is in showing that God alone is deserving of a certian kind of treatment, and Catholics adhere to that to the letter. In addition, because God has elevated certain people to places of honor in His kingdom, it is right and good to give those people special treatment (whatever you want to call it) as well, not in place of God, but* in pious respect* for Him who has done this great thing with them and their lives.

Interesting idea to think about, though. Thanks for posting it RacerX.

Peace,
javelin

 

[javelin]

This whole “saints as gods” sub-discussion is kinds silly, IMHO, too.

The whole point was that outsiders could easily view our treatment of the saints and Mary just like the treatment pagan people give to their (false) gods and goddesses. So as some people understand the word “god”, they are.

Now WE usually steer far away from using that term because it carries with it many other presumed characteristics that we do not hold regarding the Saints and Mary. Also, it is very hard to make the small “g” god vs. capital “G” God distinction in verbal communication . So I would do as some have suggested here and avoid using it, as you could create a lot more confusion than you bargained for.

But that is just my opinion – as is everything my fingers say here

Peace,
javelin

 

[cheddarsox]

javelin:

The whole point was that outsiders could easily view our treatment of the saints and Mary just like the treatment pagan people give to their (false) gods and goddesses. So as some people understand the word “god”, they are.

Having lived in Catholic, Protestant and Pagan religions, I can tell you, it not only LOOKs the same, it IS the same. When you offer gifts, sacrafices, prayers, homage, tears, etc to a being, or image of a being…hmmm. worship. Just because the Catechism says, when you do this for saints or Mary it is not worship, but when you do exactly the same thing for God or Jesus it is worship, doesn’t change the true nature of the experience for the worshipper.

Or maybe you could throw those idol “worshippers” a bone and say they venerate their false gods etc.

The reality is, for the practitioners, these acts are exactly the same.

Now, it is true, for some that they don’t have a special devotion to Mary, or a saint, and therefore are never compromised by worshipping where it is not considered appropriate. But by far, the most “pagan” rituals I have ever been witness to were when I was a member of the Catholic Church. I have never seen a group of people more hyped up, emotional, or worshipful than at devotions for Mary. Crying, singing, throwing themselves face down before her statue, parading her statue about, crowning it with flowers, professing undying love and devotion etc. etc. Call it whatever allows you to sleep in your bed at night, but the rest of the world calls it what it is. WORSHIP.

I have never seen pagans as hyped over any of their idols, nor have I seen Catholics display such emotion over even the body of Christ himself.

I am not bringing this up to be hateful. But it is a situation that bears looking at. Having been a member of the Church, having lived and witnessed it occuring first hand, I cannot deny that it takes place. It is one of the things that makes Catholicism fun, emotional and invigorating, but it is also inherently against the teachings of the Church itself.

In theology, Catholicism is monotheistic, but in practice, for many, it is much more polytheistic than many pagan traditions. The practice, superstitions and mysticism is essentially identical to many pagan practices which Catholics loudly condem as occult and satanic.

The Church cannot, of course, be responsible for the misuse and malpractice of its catechism amongst its followers. But much of this is very much institutionalized and at least tacitly condoned by the church.

cheddar

 

[Deus_Vult]

Racer X:

In So how is the Blessed Virgin Mary not a goddess? one of the main points made is that we (Catholics) do not worship Mary. I think it is a serious mistake in apologetics say that we do not worship her. Anyone outside of the Catholic Church can see that we do worship her. To reply to them that it only looks like worship but is not *really *worship just undermines our credibility. They know what the word “worship” means and our explanation just looks like redefining the word worship to suit our needs—which it is.

But this finagling is unnecessary. The relationship between the words worship, veneration and adoration is:

- Adoration is the worship properly due to God alone, veneration is the worship appropriate to the saints.

See the Catholic Encyclopedia articles on Worship, Christian, which begins thus:

and continues

The worship due God alone is properly called Adoration.

Some might say that the usage of “worship” has changed since the Catholic Encyclopedia, but I see no evidence for that. All that is happened is that recently Catholics have tried to sweep an uncomfortable question under the rug… and quite unnecessarily.

So the next time you are accused of worshipping Mary, say, “Yes, I do but not with the sort of worship that may be given to God alone.” Or simply, “Yes. And…?” That may lead to a conversation that will help them actually understand the distinction. On the other hand, what are they to make of denial of worshipping her when they can see it with their own eyes?

Your claim to Roman Catholic is false if you contend you worship Mary…you are either very misguided or intentionally trying to debase Roman Catholicism. I will personally ask to have you suspended and or banned for such remarks.

 

[Axion]

cheddarsox:

Having lived in Catholic, Protestant and Pagan religions, I can tell you, it not only LOOKs the same, it IS the same. When you offer gifts, sacrafices, prayers, homage, tears, etc to a being, or image of a being…hmmm. worship. Just because the Catechism says, when you do this for saints or Mary it is not worship, but when you do exactly the same thing for God or Jesus it is worship, doesn’t change the true nature of the experience for the worshipper.

No. It is all to do with INTENTION. God is the divine One. Mary is a humble servant of God, whose intercession we seek. Mary does the will of God and joins in our prayers - as has already been described.

People bring gifts, sacrifices, prayers (entreaties), homage and tears to Kings and Governors. (Sometimes even to minor beureacrats and bosses). Does that make these people gods? No. You are just sowing mischief.

Now, it is true, for some that they don’t have a special devotion to Mary, or a saint, and therefore are never compromised by worshipping where it is not considered appropriate. But by far, the most “pagan” rituals I have ever been witness to were when I was a member of the Catholic Church. I have never seen a group of people more hyped up, emotional, or worshipful than at devotions for Mary. Crying, singing, throwing themselves face down before her statue, parading her statue about, crowning it with flowers, professing undying love and devotion etc. etc. Call it whatever allows you to sleep in your bed at night, but the rest of the world calls it what it is. WORSHIP.

I’m sorry. You are just trying to abuse and cause scandal. If you were ever a catholic, you obviously had no idea whatsoever about the faith you were (temporarily and nominally) part of.

I have never seen pagans as hyped over any of their idols, nor have I seen Catholics display such emotion over even the body of Christ himself.

Exactly WHERE and WHEN did you supposedly see people “crying, singing, throwing themselves face down before her statue, parading her statue about, crowning it with flowers, etc.”??

Or is the truth that you are just throwing in various devotional practices ast different times and are conflating and exagerating them as much as possible in order to cause offense and scandal?