P
PatrickJT914
Guest
Who is at the center of the liturgy? Who is our main focus?
- Status
M
mattwcu
Guest
Praxis, your opinion regarding the OF Lectionary is just your opinion. It is not a matter of fact. Myself and others have expressed our opinions, and your replies have been extremely condescending. And yet you accuse Markadm of claiming superiority? That is all you have done is claim superiority for your own opinion.
I think coming onto the Traditional forum and beginning such a flammable conversation only works to deepen people’s already divisive opinions of either venerable form of the Roman Rite. The discussion is going nowhere.
I’m very sorry I even took the bait to join in the conversation.
I think coming onto the Traditional forum and beginning such a flammable conversation only works to deepen people’s already divisive opinions of either venerable form of the Roman Rite. The discussion is going nowhere.
I’m very sorry I even took the bait to join in the conversation.
J
James0235
Guest
I almost posted something very similar to this a few hours ago but decided to hold off. I just got back on to actually post it. But, you beat me to it.
It really seems to me like the OP only initiated this thread for the purpose of baiting people.
But, regardless of whether or not the OP intended to bait people and start an argument it is very clear that Mark did not deserve this.
James
L
LilyM
Guest
I would argue that every single word of the NT at least is criticially important - I don’t think there’s any padding to speak of in there that could be ignored without spiritual detriment.
In terms of the OT - I would argue that, while there are more and less important sections, we do miss out shamefully by being overly selective with it. We miss things like important archetypes and Messianic prophecies and other background that immeasurably enhances our understanding of the NT.
Remember God inspired every word of its writing and that’s because He has important things to say to us in all of it.
M
mattwcu
Guest
Hi LilyM,
Regarding the Old Testament, I agree in the OF the Church is too selective. I am especially concerned with the Psalter, which I think is a tragedy. Our Church removed many verses and even a few Psalms from the Liturgy of the Hours and the Lectionary because even though every word is inspired and beneficial, some were deemed too difficult for us to deal with.
One of the reasons I ultimately switched to a Pre-1970 breviary was due to this censorship.
In terms of padding in the NT, I would call it that but I’ve never been to a Bible study on the Epistle of 3rd John before…
A
AJV
Guest
I’m not oblivious to the faults of the new lectionary, but I would like to make a few points on the article:
- the breviary cannot be used as an argument against the new lectionary because it is not that the lectionary harmonizes with the breviary but the other way around. Feriae don’t really have a specific theme or harmonization, so I assume that ACM was referring to the Sundays and the harmonization of the Gospel homily and the Benedictus/Magnificat antiphons for Lauds and Vespers II. The NO actually does sometimes harmonize the two (but without announcing it) especially during the seasons (In Ordinary Time, it is seen less since we are usually enthralled for several days with S.Augustine- and-the-Pastors or other continuous readings). But in any case, if it is desired to make them harmonize, then all that would need to be done is to change the Second Patristic Reading in the LOTH to reflect the Gospel of the day.
- I do not really see the problem with having multiple books – I think that’s a very small argument in the light of the whole.
- It is only the Churches of the Byzantine tradition which have only an Epistle and Gospel (and an abbreviated psalmody). From the point of the Orient, I suppose both Byzantine and Latin are Roman. In any case, the Oriental churches do not have only two. They have 3, or as many as 4. 3 lections have also survivied on certain days (other than the Ember Wednesdays) in the Traditional cycle
- The singing of the lections does not preclude a 3 year cycle. The tones for the Epistle are very simple and largely recitata. Some of the Gospel tones may be unique but not every Gospel has its own tone. Besides, I seriously doubt that deacons and subdeacons at Traditional Masses are singing from noted books of the Epistles and Gospels.
- The general consensus of modern (I use the term relatively since it spans a couple of centuries) scholars, is that, though ancient, the foundation of the periscopes was not laid down by St. Jerome, as other liturgists had presumed, but by another. Victor of Capua is often attributed with it; Dom Cabrol also puts forward a certain Claudianus.
- As for the possibility that it was not suggested by Vatican II – I’ not sure that reports of the ignorance of the bishops concerning all the liturgical designs are so accurate. Certainly the introduction of a four-year system was discussed at liturgical conferences of the 50’s… and IIRC, it was mentioned in a explanatory letter of the Commission at the Council.
- With regard to the Scriptural portions in the Ordinary of the Traditional Mass, I would argue that it is insufficient for refuting the “more Scripture” argument. It is largely psalmic and, since it is repeated, one is not really getting exposed to “more” (as in “more varied”) Scripture. Besides, some are said silently (more in a High Mass) although you would read them in your missal
A
AJV
Guest
- About the harmonization with the minor Propers….this is the real point. I admit that the NO could have done in better job (and in some places, it is a bit glaring where they’ve tried to keep the old while inserting the new). However, I think the links in the Traditional Mass are slightly exaggerated.
I think there is a good point to be made for the unity of the readings and the rest of the Mass. At the same time, some of the Temporal Masses do not indicate this unity. I was also thinking of the parallel case in the breviary. There, one could say there is a unity between the psalms and the saint being celebrated. That was why until St. Pius X, the psalms from the Common were recited on saints’ feasts. However, in the Pian revision, this was largely sacrificed (except for major saints and certain exceptions) in favour of the ferial psalms. This usually divides up the Office, since the psalms do not necessarily relate to the theme, and their antiphons certainly do not. But it was made in order to follow a principle- psalms in the week.
I don’t know what the make of the argument on remebering the readings….in one way, it makes perfect sense to me. In another,I sometimes think it doesn’t matter. I don’t remember, for example, all the sermons my priests preached and even if they were to be preached again this year, I doubt I would even then (then again, my mental abilities are not great
). But for the moment, for that week or that day it helps, and influences my thoughts or my dispositions or my attitude toward God.
L
LilyM
Guest
Well, 3 John is in the Canon and there’s doubtless good reason for it. Since it only consists of one chapter, it’d be difficult to make a huge deal out of it
which may be why the lack of Bible study, but that doesn’t mean it should be ignored by any means.
J
James0235
Guest
It’s definitely not ignored.Well, 3 John is in the Canon and there’s doubtless good reason for it. Since it only consists of one chapter, it’d be difficult to make a huge deal out of it
3 John 5-8 is used as the 1st Reading in Year II on Saturday of the 32nd week in Ordinary Time.
Unfortunately most people will never hear it in Mass. But, at least it is used. We can’t say the same for poor Obadiah though.
James
M
mattwcu
Guest
Hi LilyM,
After I posted that I thought to myself that it looked like I was snickering at John 3, and that wasn’t my intention. The Holy Spirit had a reason for John 3 and its not my job to question him.
AJV,
As far as my point regarding the Breviary, I was referring to the Psalms themselves, not the other scripture readings. And incidentally the problem isn’t just with the Breviary Psalter but also with the recited Psalms at Mass. They are edited so we don’t get the full Psalm. Now whether or not that is good is a matter of opinion. I realize there were snippets in the Old Mass (I think mostly in the graduals). But in the OF there is a special optional time set aside to sing an entire Psalm in responsory. I have never sung or responded any sort of dashing anyone’s head against a rock in the past…(Ps. 137)
Your points regarding the cohesiveness of the lectionaries is well taken. I think this is another example of how opinion enters into the conversation.
The Church, in her mercy, has allowed us a choice in the Roman Rite.
After I posted that I thought to myself that it looked like I was snickering at John 3, and that wasn’t my intention. The Holy Spirit had a reason for John 3 and its not my job to question him.
AJV,
As far as my point regarding the Breviary, I was referring to the Psalms themselves, not the other scripture readings. And incidentally the problem isn’t just with the Breviary Psalter but also with the recited Psalms at Mass. They are edited so we don’t get the full Psalm. Now whether or not that is good is a matter of opinion. I realize there were snippets in the Old Mass (I think mostly in the graduals). But in the OF there is a special optional time set aside to sing an entire Psalm in responsory. I have never sung or responded any sort of dashing anyone’s head against a rock in the past…(Ps. 137)
Your points regarding the cohesiveness of the lectionaries is well taken. I think this is another example of how opinion enters into the conversation.
The Church, in her mercy, has allowed us a choice in the Roman Rite.
P
PatrickJT914
Guest
Drum roll,OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST
Sometimes I get the impression from reading the threads and posts on CAF, that Jesus is forgotten when discussing the TLM vs. NO. It’s mostly about personal taste, who is more Catholic than the Pope, who has read the most church documents, being a critic (Art, music, enviroment, hymnals,etc.) This is really sad. When we die and go meet Jesus, what do you think he’ll ask us? Do you go to a EF or OF? Did you say the prayers in Latin or in the vernacular? Did you sing Gregorian chant or contemporary songs? Were you paying attention and participating in the Mass or were you too busy looking for something to criticize? Did you hear the Word of the Lord? Were too worried about the Rubrics,Canon Law, GIRM and other church documents being followed? This list could go on. However, moving on to the questions Jesus more than likely will ask,
Were you loving and did you help out others? Did you give drink, or food,or clothes,or visit the sick, etc.? Did you keep my commandments? Do you go to Mass? Did you find me in the Priest, in My Sacred Word, in your fellow Mass attendees, and in My most important gift I left you. My Body and Blood? Did you pray the Mass? Did you raise your voice in song to give thanks, praise,honor and glory to my name at all? Did you fully pay attention to things that truly mattered? Were you fully involved and taking part, or just staying in your personal space, and not want to be bothered? This list can also go on as well. My intent is not to judge, criticize, or say that anything in the above mentioned questions are not important. But they take a back seat to Jesus as the center of the Mass. Any form.
Sometimes I get the impression from reading the threads and posts on CAF, that Jesus is forgotten when discussing the TLM vs. NO. It’s mostly about personal taste, who is more Catholic than the Pope, who has read the most church documents, being a critic (Art, music, enviroment, hymnals,etc.) This is really sad. When we die and go meet Jesus, what do you think he’ll ask us? Do you go to a EF or OF? Did you say the prayers in Latin or in the vernacular? Did you sing Gregorian chant or contemporary songs? Were you paying attention and participating in the Mass or were you too busy looking for something to criticize? Did you hear the Word of the Lord? Were too worried about the Rubrics,Canon Law, GIRM and other church documents being followed? This list could go on. However, moving on to the questions Jesus more than likely will ask,
Were you loving and did you help out others? Did you give drink, or food,or clothes,or visit the sick, etc.? Did you keep my commandments? Do you go to Mass? Did you find me in the Priest, in My Sacred Word, in your fellow Mass attendees, and in My most important gift I left you. My Body and Blood? Did you pray the Mass? Did you raise your voice in song to give thanks, praise,honor and glory to my name at all? Did you fully pay attention to things that truly mattered? Were you fully involved and taking part, or just staying in your personal space, and not want to be bothered? This list can also go on as well. My intent is not to judge, criticize, or say that anything in the above mentioned questions are not important. But they take a back seat to Jesus as the center of the Mass. Any form.
A
AJV
Guest
I was actually responding to markadm’s post earlier on the lectionary not yours
I also recite the LOTH together with part sof the old breviary. It’ s a bit strange going on skipping for example, the bit of heads scattered far and wide when reciting 109
S
Spiller
Guest
It most certainly is fact. It’s almost laughable to see people not simply defending the EF cycle – which is fine, but to suggest it is superior to the new cycles.
http://bp0.blogger.com/_G4J696XDw-Y/RshMIV0ZrBI/AAAAAAAAAQM/VFh_JU-kRc8/s1600/extra_v_ord.JPG
J
James0235
Guest
It most certainly is not fact. It is a matter of opinion.
Your wanting an opinion to be fact does not make it so. It just doesn’t work that way.
To believe that it is laughable that someone does not think your opinion should be elevated to the level of fact is really quite asinine. Does it really bother you that much that there are people out there that might not share your opinion (not fact) on this?
James
S
Spiller
Guest
It’s fact. The news cycles give far greater exposure to the Sacred Scriptures. Done deal. The rest really is noise.
DO YOU REALLY THINK “traditionalists” would defend the reduced cycle of the OF if things were reversed? Do you honestly believe we would see these “arguments” on this forum in favor of the single, shorter cycle?
Absolutely no way! LOL!!
J
James0235
Guest
It is opinion because not everyone will necessarily share your criteria for what makes a Lectionary cycle superior.
If all it takes for a Lectionary cycle to be great is lots and lots of scripture then lets lengthen Mass by a couple of hours and the 1st Reading each Sunday can be 2 OT books, the 2nd Reading can be 4 of Paul’s epistles and we can read all 4 Gospels.
There! Now it is a fact that that cycle is superior! It would be laughable for anyone to think otherwise!
Wow. Some unnamed “traditionalists” might possible hold a different opinion if history had happened differently?
Do you honestly think that is a good argument for you trying to elevate your personal opinions to the level of fact?
James
M
mattwcu
Guest
Is a Hummer a better car than a WV Beetle? Because there is more car?
Is a massive menu in a restaurant better than a smaller one? Even if it takes me 45 minutes to decide?
Is a massive menu in a restaurant better than a smaller one? Even if it takes me 45 minutes to decide?
E
ethelzguy
Guest
Are you referring to the number of readings in Mass and the three year cycle vs the one year cycle?..
…or the quantity of prayers in the TLM vs the NO?
J
James0235
Guest
I think he might be referring to Spiller’s faulty logic.Are you referring to the number of readings in Mass and the three year cycle vs the one year cycle?..
…or the quantity of prayers in the TLM vs the NO?
James
S
SJP
Guest
Great post!
- Status