I am a traditionally-minded Catholic who LOVES the Pauline Mass

[SJP]

It’s also important to try to understand the history of the Mass. Those that would like to imply the current EF is a 2,000 year old linear development of the Mass are simply wrong. While wonderful in itself, it’s basis dates from the Middles Ages and not the early church.

Can you please provide evidence for this claim. When, in your opinion, was the EF created?

Thank you.

 

[japhy]

It’s fact. The news cycles give far greater exposure to the Sacred Scriptures. Done deal. The rest really is noise.

Then the Church missed the mark, because there’s plenty of Scripture we still don’t hear. In fact, the Church removed some of the Scripture we did hear at Mass. Why would it remove Scripture only to add other Scripture? Why didn’t they incorporate the complete Bible?

 

[mattwcu]

Are you referring to the number of readings in Mass and the three year cycle vs the one year cycle?..

…or the quantity of prayers in the TLM vs the NO?

Yes I was referring to the faulty logic. More isn’t necessarily better. I don’t know how many times we can say it.

On the same note, there is MORE text in the EF than the OF. There are MORE Tracts, there are MORE rubrics etc…but these MOREs don’t make betters necessarily.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

In most Sunday masses we have an OT reading, a non-gospel NT reading, and a selection from the gospels. One of the other readings is related to the gospel.

Now, it’s just my opinion, but I really do listen to the readings and I feel that the three-year cycle of readings which exposes us to more of the bible is a positive thing. Since the church has approved both forms of the mass, why is there argument that one form is superior? Those who attend the EF value the repetition of a one-year cycle. Those who value exposure to more of the bible appreciate that in the OF.

To me, receiving in the hand is more reverent than receiving on the tongue so being able to do that is a great blessing to me. BOTH ARE PERMITTED by the church. If one is no longer allowed, I will obey without complaining. If my bishop asks that I show reverence by a bow, I will do so because I think God is pleased with our obedience. However, if someone genuflects at communion, I assume they feel this is what God wants them to do and I don’t take them to task.

In my culture, wearing a hat is not a current sign of respect, so I don’t cover my head in church. When this was required, I did it. I grew up wearing a hat in church; mantillas weren’t part of my culture. To me, there is and was nothing inherently reverent in wearing one but if someone wants to do so, I assume their motives are good.

People who prefer the OF mass don’t usually judge those who attend the EF whenever they can but I think some of the traditionalists don’t even think the OF is valid. Some say it can by valid but apparently doubt it is.

Why can’t we just live charitably with both approved forms of the Latin Rite?

 

[James0235]

People who prefer the OF mass don’t usually judge those who attend the EF whenever they can but I think some of the traditionalists don’t even think the OF is valid. Some say it can by valid but apparently doubt it is.

Have you not just read this thread? Most of it is about how it is laughable that anyone could possibly prefer the OF cycle of Readings.

The whole thread is about judging the EF. Kind of ironic that you would then turn it around to how people judge the OF.

You are providing a pretty good example of some who feels they know better than the Church…

Let’s see. We open here with an insult on Mark for merely daring to not hold the same opinion as Praxis.

The expanded cycle is inherently superior. There really is no way around that truth…

Then we move to the “my opinion is truth because it is my opinion and how dare anyone disagree with me by actually liking the EF cycle of Readings” line of reasoning.

I didn’t find your opinion to be accurate. Aside from the far greater exposure to the Sacred Scriptures (reason enough to make it FAR superior) I have another reason to know the new cycles are superior to the old one.

More “I know my opinion is the truth because it is my opinion” arguments.

I have seen many attempt (from every angle) to sell certain parts of the Mass (be it the OF or the EF) as being superior. I have never however seen a weaker argument for retaining what is clearly an inferior aspect of the EF.

Immediately followed with referring to the EF cycle of Readings as “inferior”.

Do take notice of the irony of mentioning a weak argument given how pathetically weak Praxis’s arguments have been up to this point.

Then Spiller picks up where Praxis leaves off with such gems as:

It most certainly is fact. It’s almost laughable to see people not simply defending the EF cycle – which is fine, but to suggest it is superior to the new cycles.
http://bp0.blogger.com/_G4J696XDw-Y/RshMIV0ZrBI/AAAAAAAAAQM/VFh_JU-kRc8/s1600/extra_v_ord.JPG

Yes, he actually says that it is laughable to prefer the EF cycle of Readings because of its inferiority.

So, Claire, that is why I find it so strange that after reading the EF itself and those who attend it being insulted on nearly every page of this thread you would write:

People who prefer the OF mass don’t usually judge those who attend the EF whenever they can but I think some of the traditionalists don’t even think the OF is valid. Some say it can by valid but apparently doubt it is.

And notice that I have not once in this thread expressed a preference for the OF cycle of Readings or the EF cycle of Readings.

James

 

[ProVobis]

But we are free to study the Bible outside of Mass. This seems to get overlooked. Personally, I feel the exposure to MORE scripture in the Mass would more likely spur MORE personal study, solo, or in groups within a parish.

I can find no redeeming logic in further limiting how much scripture we are exposed to in the Mass. And, of course asking if we should cover ALL scripture is a bit of a rhetorical question, no?

For once I agree with you. And it certainly doesn’t do any harm in comparing one translation against another. But the Latin Vulgate is the best (truer to the source anyway).

 

[Claire_from_DE]

James
I accept that both forms of the mass are valid and good. Obviously the OP and those who developed the expanded cycle of readings felt there is great value in being exposed to more variety in the readings, that this was an ‘improvement’. Then someone made the good point that there is more extensive use of the scriptures within the EF, within the mass itself, not the readings. But this doesn’t invalidate the OP’s statement about the 3 year cycle of readings.

You said:
**"**Have you not just read this thread? Most of it is about how it is laughable that anyone could possibly prefer the OF cycle of Readings.

The whole thread is about judging the EF. Kind of ironic that you would then turn it around to how people judge the OF."

Yes, it seemed to me that people were attacking/judging the OF cycle of readings. And I have actually spoken to two people who will not even admit the OF is a valid mass, which is even more of an attack on the OF. Why attack? There is value in both.

 

[mattwcu]

Yes, it seemed to me that people were attacking/judging the OF cycle of readings. And I have actually spoken to two people who will not even admit the OF is a valid mass, which is even more of an attack on the OF. Why attack? There is value in both.

I can’t speak for anyone else here. But I was not attacking the OF Cycle of readings. I was defending my opinion that more readings is not better. I think 3 years of readings just to get more in is a bit much. But again, thats an opinion.

If any of my posts led you to believe we were attacking the OF lectionary then I’m sorry but that was not the case, at least for my part.

Let’s leave Communion in the Hand out of this discussion if we can… Or perhaps open another thread on the matter.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

I thought the discussion about the lectionary and the LOTH was interesting. I didn’t realize they relate to each other (except for the feast of the day) and I didn’t know the calendars of the OF and EF are different. That seems like something to be in need of correction?

 

[mattwcu]

I thought the discussion about the lectionary and the LOTH was interesting. I didn’t realize they relate to each other (except for the feast of the day) and I didn’t know the calendars of the OF and EF are different. That seems like something to be in need of correction?

Yes they are related. For instance, my edition of the Monastic Matins (1956) contains pretty much identical readings but expands on them. So for my Gospel reading I get not only the reading as in Mass later in the morning but a longer version of it. Also, there are several readings from Fathers of the Church which expound on that reading. Many times these particular readings have been used for centuries, or perhaps millenia, on the same Sunday throughout the year (now lost in the modern lectionary, in many cases). So the homilies from the Church Fathers are linked to that particular Sunday. Its really quite amazing when you think about it.

It doesn’t always work out perfectly though…but in general that is how my understanding of it is.

The calendars being different I find very unfortunate. As someone attached to the EF there are times when I feel very detached from the rest of the Church due to the calendar. Fr. Z has a great podcast from during the Octave of Pentecost that deals with this. wdtprs.com/blog and then do a search for Octave of Pentecost Podcasts.

 

[PatrickJT914]

After reading this thread and the later posts on scripture in Mass. I get the feeling that not too many people understand that our liturgy is heavily based on scripture. For point of reference the OF form will be used here.

INTRODUCTORY RITES

Entrance Song: 1 Chr 13:8; Eph 5:19
Signs of reverence: (Bowing & kissing altar by priest)
(bowing in prayer) 1 Kgs 8:54,55
Sign of the Cross: Mt 28:19
Greeting (The Lord be with you): Ruth 2:4
Pentinential Rite: Mt 5:23-24; Eph 4;32; Col 3:13
Kyrie (Lord have mercy): Mt 18:12-14; Lk 6:21
Gloria (Glory to God): Lk 2:14; Jn 1:14; Rom 11:36; Phil 4:20
Opening Prayer: Lk 10:25-28

 

[Spiller]

For once I agree with you. And it certainly doesn’t do any harm in comparing one translation against another. But the Latin Vulgate is the best (truer to the source anyway).

Not necessarily…

 

[PatrickJT914]

To continue,

LITURGY OF THE WORD- Mk 16:15

1st Reading (Old Testament or Acts): Lk 4:16; Acts 13:14-16
Responsorial Psalm: Psalm 1-150
2nd Reading: 1 Cor 10:1-6,10-12
Gospel acclamation: Biblically based
Gospel: Lk 13:1-9 (Matthew,Mark,Luke or John)
Reasons why: Rom 1:15-19; Phil 1:27
Homily or sermon: Jesus gave them.
Creed or Profession of faith: 1 Cor 15:3ff; Mt 4:8-10; 22:35-38; Lk 10:25-28; Col 1:1-16; 2 Cor 3:6,17; 2 Pt 1:21; Jn 15:26
Prayer of the faithful (General Intercessions): 1 Tm 2:1-2

 

[markadm]

It really seems to me like the OP only initiated this thread for the purpose of baiting people.

But, regardless of whether or not the OP intended to bait people and start an argument it is very clear that Mark did not deserve this.

Thank you, James.

I’m simply content that other people seem to share the opinions that I, rather badly, tried to express.

 

[PatrickJT914]

To continue even further,

LITURGY OF THE EUCHARIST

Offertory
Procession with the gifts (Bread,wine,collections-symbols of the people or of nature)
Preparation of the gifts
Bread: Jn 6:31-51; Mt 6:11
Wine: Mt 26:28; Rm 5:9; 1 Cor 11:23-25; Eph 2:13; Heb 9:14 1 Pt 1:2
Water mixed with blood (wine): Jn 19:34
Eucharistic Prayer (One prayer,many forms)
Preface: Eph 3:12
Acclamation (Holy, Holy): Is 6:3; Mt 21:9; Lk 19:37-38
Narrative of institution & memorial acclamation
Transubstantiation(Bread & wine turn into Jesus)
Christ’s promise: Mt 26:28; Mk 14:22-24; Lk 22:19-20; Jn 6:51
Christ’s sacrifice: Heb 9:11-28
Taught by Paul: 1 Cor 10:16; 11:23-29
Final doxology(prayer of praise expressing glory to God)
Mt 28:1-10; Mk 16:1-8; Lk 24:1-7; Col 1:27; Jn 1:14
Acclamation (Great Amen): Gal 1:5; 1 Pt 5:11; Rv 1:6-7; Rv 22:21; Rv 3:14

Communion Rite: Jn 6:34-71; Lk 22:19
The Lord’s Prayer: Mt 6:9-13; Lk 11:2-4; Mt 18:20-21
Sign of peace: Jn 20:19-20
Breaking of the bread: Jn 21:11-13
Table fellowship: 1 Cor 10:16-17; 1 Cor 5:7
Lamb of God: Jn 1:29
Communion of the people: Mt 26:27-29; 1 Cor 11:23-26
Silent prayer (reflection): Jn 7:37-39; 17:1-26
Prayer after communion: 1 Cor 8:6

CONCLUDING RITES
Blessing: Lk 24:50-53; Nm 6:22-27; Eph 1:3-14; Rv 22:21; Ps 61
Dismissal:
A. Go in the peace of Christ
B. The Mass is ended, go in peace.
C. Go in peace to love and serve the Lord.
Recessional hymn or song

 

[PatrickJT914]

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I for one is growing tired of posters who wish to turn CAF into their own personal debate club. Not sticking to the original intent of the thread starter. Would you please refrain from this conduct. There are others who wish to learn, and discuss important faith matters. I don’t want to see a Catholic online Jerry Springer show.

Note: I already sent an email to the Forum Administrator complaining about this practice. I did not mention anyone in particular. You know who you are.

 

[PrayforMallory]

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I for one is growing tired of posters who wish to turn CAF into their own personal debate club. Not sticking to the original intent of the thread starter. Would you please refrain from this conduct. There are others who wish to learn, and discuss important faith matters. I don’t want to see a Catholic online Jerry Springer show.

Note: I already sent an email to the Forum Administrator complaining about this practice. I did not mention anyone in particular. You know who you are.

Don’t worry about all that dude.

This forum aint real.

 

[PrayforMallory]

The content of Scriptures and their relevance to the situation matters just as much as the quantity.

Also, since homilies revolve around Scriptures, the experience of understanding and internalizing those Scriptures is affected by the homilies.

 

[PrayforMallory]

Why are more scriptures/less tradition suddenly better?

We Prots now?

 

[PatrickJT914]

You posted more posts than anyone else. Personal debate club?

Are you absolutely sure I’ve posted more posts? PrayforMallory I’ve noticed your total posts stand at 162 compared to mine at just 122 If you counted up all the individual posters ( I’m not revealing their screen names) you will find in order from most to least.
15
13
10- yourself
8
8- myself
7
5
4
3
3
3
3
3
2
2
2
1
1
1
I am not going to be dragged into a tit for tat tennis match sparring sessions. That’s all I’m going to say at this time.

P.S. PrayforMallory to show you I have no hard feelings. Did you see and read my prayer for Mallory on Post #58?