I am an atheist thread 2

[notself]

Baloney. I can recite prayers as well as any theist. Even though I don’t believe, it will have the same result. If you can name something clear and verifiable that you can accomplish by prayer, I can do the same by simply mimicking you. Prayer does nothing special.Well, they can still recite the words in a hollow, meaningless fashion. I am simply saying that the end result is the same. If you say you have some benefit that I do not, that is just your opinion. Why not demonstrate that your prayer actually has an effect? Are you afraid that it will be obvious that prayer has no more effect than meditation with no god in mind?

Prayer has no discernible effect on the real world.

Prayer like meditation can have an effect on the mind. I have never observed the effect from prayer, but I have observed the effect of meditation on my mind and perhaps prayer can also have some sort of effect.

Because meditation has had an effect on my mind, I have also experienced the effect in my actions. So in a very round about way, meditation can have an “actual effect” on my real world.

 

[_A]

Prayer like meditation can have an effect on the mind. I have never observed the effect from prayer, but I have observed the effect of meditation on my mind and perhaps prayer can also have some sort of effect.

Because meditation has had an effect on my mind, I have also experienced the effect in my actions. So in a very round about way, meditation can have an “actual effect” on my real world.

The effects of the prayers of believers cannot be distinguished from the effects of prayers of non-believers.

EDIT - the text in bold

 

[notself]

The effects of the prayers of believers cannot be distinguished from the effects of prayers of non-believers.

EDIT - the text in bold

You may be right about prayer.

Meditation has measurable effect on the brain. I wonder if there have been any studies regarding the effect of prayer on the brain.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

The effects of the prayers of believers cannot be distinguished from the effects of prayers of non-believers.

EDIT - the text in bold

I would state that if the non believer gave him/her self to daily prayer it would have an effect. over time if they opened up in that time of prayer they would start to see God moving and working in their life.

you have nothing to lose might want to give it a try.

Peace in the Lord.

Scott

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

What I mean by this is that, if the designers had only on/off switches available to them, they would be forced to use the binary number base. If they had somehow had three-position switches, they would have certainly used trinary. If their switches had 10 positions, they would have used decimal.
The limits of the hardware are what dictated the use of binary. I admit that it looks like a choice made by a designer, but really it is just the only arrangement that was possible.

No, because they could have easily been arranged by utility, rather than design.
I would say that binary code shows intelligence no more than decimal code.

I’m astonished! Are you saying that something as complex as a Windows Vista Ultimate operating system could be produced by a completely random random arrangement of ones and zeros, and without the contribution of even one programmer? I must be misunderstanding you, or you are being facetious?

 

[Armor_of_God]

Hi A,

1. Faith cannot be measured empirically, in the scientific sense.

and

1. The faithful don’t care.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

No, I wouldn’t. If you witness a crime, yet do nothing to bring the criminal to justice, you are aiding him or her in crime.
While it may be laudable that one of the theives apologized, the decision about what kind of punishment should be meted out is up to the justice system, not **one **vigilante.

Well, my good A, i must admit you have a point there! In fact, i doubt that stealing a bass from my boat would actually constitute a crime worthy of bothering the police, so i should modify my hypothetical example to make it more believable:

Lets say that rather than calling the authorities, i decide to tell the judges of the fishing contest that the man who refused to return my fish had stolen it from me, and they disqualify him as a result. On the other hand, i do not tell the judges about the man who returned my fish, choosing instead to show him mercy.

Would it be wrong for me to become angry with the one who refused to return the fish but to cease to be angry with the one who apologized to me and sincerely changed his behavior?

 

[Armor_of_God]

Poetry doesn’t make your god moral.

Hold on there, A. I never mentioned anything about morality in my question.

This is what I meant about “moving the goal posts”. It seems that you infer or straight out assume what someone is getting at with their question/comment, and then move the goal posts so that you can reject their supposed argument, even if they weren’t making that argument in the post.

 

[ontologysue]

@ontologysue

Two plus two equals four or it doesn’t.

Now we have a tautology.

Agreed. And now, we can agree that there are truths which do not require observable empirical testing. They are true in their inherent rationality.

I give more credit to our rational faculty than you do, Phooney. You only accept what you can prove has been demonstrated by whatever physical observable science is available at any given time. I say our rational faculty can lead us into higher truths. There are mathematical truths, for example, which cannot be tested empirically. It is not uncommon for a physicist to say, "we know x is mathematically true, but we cannot prove it observably.

I will respond, by the way, to your longer analysis, just need a little more time.

If you could BOLD or something my stuff or your stuff when you respond, I could get through it more quickly…

Ditto to A’s opinion of your posts!!

 

[ontologysue]

I was a cradle catholic, but I don’t remember actually believing. I remember praying, and wondering why it didn’t seem to do anything. My Mother says that I LOVED to go to church when I was small.

I think one turning point for me was when I was around 11. I was channel-surfing (with a ‘converter’ lol) when I saw a ‘feed the starving Ethiopians’ pledge drive. I changed the channel.
The next thing I watched was a tour of Vatican City. I had the answer to the starving children that quickly.
I went in to see my priest that week, and told him my idea about selling off all the art and gold and paintings to feed the children. He said something about ‘priceless holy treasures’. I didn’t understand the word ‘priceless’, but thought to myself that I could certainly get a price for some of it.
It was a naive complaint at the time, but it still has not been answered. Why the church needs so much money, I mean. The RC church is paying out settlements in the hundreds of millions of dollars for their sexual misconduct, and subsequent mishandling of the matters.
I wonder how many people struggled to make those 'tithies…I know it wasn’t easy for my Mom when we were small.
That really opened my eyes to the possibility that the church could be wrong, and the minute you start looking around, it is easy to see that with so many different people shouting so many different (and conflicting) truths, they all couldn’t be right.
Another thing that bothered me is that when something good happens (like one person surviving a plane crash) it is called a miracle. I say god also gets credit for the 150 dead from the same crash. This extends into anything that people do to be kind and caring to each other. The church or some god gets the credit.

I met a woman recently who had to cancel her vacation and come back to work because she lost a bunch of staff. She got an ad in the paper, interviewed a few people, found enough to hire and averted the crisis. She then told me that the power of prayer solved all her problems.
I wonder what effect her prayer would have had if she had stayed on vacation instead of rushing back to do a bunch of work.
I wonder what effect her hard work would have had if she had not bothered with the praying.

Another thing is that I read a lot, paying particular attention to anything that is ‘banned’, or generally disapproved of by church (or secular ) authority.

I hope this helps, and if you want to know anything else, just ask!

 

[Armor_of_God]

One way that I have described it is that if I pretended to believe when I did not, it would be blasphemy

Curiouser and curiouser and curiouser.

Many times in these posts, you have said things which would be considered blasphemous by the faithful. I am quite puzzled as to your use of this word. If you don’t believe in God, who or what would you be blaspheming against?

 

[_A]

I would state that if the non believer gave him/her self to daily prayer it would have an effect. over time if they opened up in that time of prayer they would start to see God moving and working in their life.

you have nothing to lose might want to give it a try.

Peace in the Lord.

Scott

Other than the risk of beginning to share what I see as your delusion, what are the other benefits of prayer?

 

[_A]

I’m astonished! Are you saying that something as complex as a Windows Vista Ultimate operating system could be produced by a completely random random arrangement of ones and zeros, and without the contribution of even one programmer? I must be misunderstanding you, or you are being facetious?

No, I am simply pointing out that it could not have been a different number base because of the limits of the natural world.

 

[_A]

Well, my good A, i must admit you have a point there! In fact, i doubt that stealing a bass from my boat would actually constitute a crime worthy of bothering the police, so i should modify my hypothetical example to make it more believable:

Lets say that rather than calling the authorities, i decide to tell the judges of the fishing contest that the man who refused to return my fish had stolen it from me, and they disqualify him as a result. On the other hand, i do not tell the judges about the man who returned my fish, choosing instead to show him mercy.

Would it be wrong for me to become angry with the one who refused to return the fish but to cease to be angry with the one who apologized to me and sincerely changed his behavior?

Yes.

They both broke the rules (assuming there are tournament rules).

What I am getting at is that both men have committed an offence of some sort. If you are rightfully the judge, then fine, judge them.
If you are not the judge, yet you judge anyway, then you just add to the wrong.

 

[_A]

Hold on there, A. I never mentioned anything about morality in my question.

This is what I meant about “moving the goal posts”. It seems that you infer or straight out assume what someone is getting at with their question/comment, and then move the goal posts so that you can reject their supposed argument, even if they weren’t making that argument in the post.

I will try not to do that. What is your question ?

 

[_A]

Curiouser and curiouser and curiouser.

Many times in these posts, you have said things which would be considered blasphemous by the faithful. I am quite puzzled as to your use of this word. If you don’t believe in God, who or what would you be blaspheming against?

If you are right about you god, he would be the offended party. Pretending to believe (for me) would be a lie. It doesn’t matter if it is true, since do not believe that it is.

Even living, as I do, as if all the gods are imaginings of man, I would not want to be false in this way.

I think faking anything about that subject is particularly despicable. Whether it is a pedophile getting a job as a priest to get closer to children or a TV evangelist taking huge donations from poor people to fund their posh lifestyle.
I think it doubles the insult because of how trusting people are of their religious authorities.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Other than the risk of beginning to share what I see as your delusion, what are the other benefits of prayer?

Sounds like your afraid to find GOD. You refuse to do anything that may open to him. I have to ask Why? I can understand the person that was brought up in a religion other than Christian Jewish or even Islam being adverse it. I can even see someone that is into the occult being so venomously opposed. I can not see some who truly thinks that there is nothing other than the physical world and science being so apposed.

As for the other benefits like with meditation it relaxes and refreshes the mind and body.

PEACE in the Lord

Scott

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

No, I am simply pointing out that it could not have been a different number base because of the limits of the natural world.

Yes, i thought i misunderstood you, which is why i asked if i had. Good, then, we agree that the result of the binary code, such as a Windows operating system, shows an intelligent, purposeful, deliberate design. The result of such code shows it is far from merely a random and meaningless series of zeros and ones.

Please excuse me for asking, but i want to be sure i have not misread you again. Do you agree with me?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yes.

They both broke the rules (assuming there are tournament rules).

What I am getting at is that both men have committed an offence of some sort. If you are rightfully the judge, then fine, judge them.
If you are not the judge, yet you judge anyway, then you just add to the wrong.

Yes, but what i’m getting at is that a person who admits an offense and takes steps to change his behavior should be treated with more leniency than a person who commits the same offense but has no remorse. We see this all the time in matters of law. Judges, as you pointed out, have the discretion of giving a more lenient sentence to the person who shows remorse for her crime than to the one show shows no remorse and rebelliously says she’d gladly commit the same offense again.

Do you agree?

 

[_A]

Sounds like your afraid to find GOD. You refuse to do anything that may open to him. I have to ask Why?

I certainly don’t fear a god that exists only in the mind of believers.

I can understand the person that was brought up in a religion other than Christian Jewish or even Islam being adverse it. I can even see someone that is into the occult being so venomously opposed. I can not see some who truly thinks that there is nothing other than the physical world and science being so apposed.

I have no reason to want to join you in your belief. It has nothing in it that I find appealing. I asked the question badly but what I mean is simply why would I *want *to ‘find god’? I should note here that I am not without experience in this area. I was raised as a catholic until I reached about 10 or so.
It is a liability that I would not choose for myself.