I am an atheist thread 2

[water]

I gave you one, the magic show at the statue of liberty. The crowd there knew making it disappear would be impossible, then they saw it anyway.

Right. you said they knew. It is just a trick on the show which is controlled by the magician.

Because of that, I asked you to give me a real event where no human is manipullating.

 

[_A]

And what I am saying is that you don’t know what you are talking about. My experience with God is as real as my experience with my uncle. You should learn to speak for yourself, not for other people. I don’t need a spokesman to tell me what my feelings are and what they are not.

What I suggest is not that you are being dishonest about your feelings. On the contrary, I can only assume that you are being as honest as you can be. Anything else would make this conversation meaningless to both us, and the people who are reading our conversation.
What I am trying to find out is how would you know the difference between having your finger pinched, and having a really convincing hallucination of having your finger pinched? Both would cause you very real pain…so your ‘feeling’ about a hallucination is not the issue - even if you are being perfectly honest.

I never said that it has any value as evidence to you (unless you trust me enough to take my word for what I say).Once again, I am not doubting your belief or your honest expression of your feelings. I am not calling anyone a liar, and I really hope you don’t keep seeing it that way.
zerinus;3070078:

But it does have great value as evidence to me

. Again, you should learn to speak for yourself, not for other people. I am quite good at speaking for myself, thank you. I don’t need someone else to do it for me.

What is evidence to you is not as relevant. You are convinced. There is no question that you believe what you have felt. There is no question that you felt it. What I am questioning is simply how would you know if the feeling was from your god, or from your satan guy, trying to trick you? How do you know it is not another example of your senses being misled or misinterpreted?

God is not a falling body. He can decide whether He wants to fall down or go up. You can’t devise an experiment to test Him.

But if he has a real effect on this real world, that effect can be studied. If not, why have so many wasted so much time on that bible? Why is there theology? Why have you been bothering to even consider my suggestion that you think about your faith? I would say that if he in completely beyond our understanding, you couldn’t possibly know anything about him, so we are equally authorities on the subject.

My hypothetical great uncle only shows himself to people on his own terms. He doesn’t care whether people believe in him or not otherwise. I told him that I have an atheist friend who wants to see him, in order to convince himself that he exists. He replied that he doesn’t talk to atheists. He also said that he didn’t care whether atheists believed in him or not.

zerinus

You are making a pretty extraordinary claim, that you have a 140 year old uncle who is still alive (that is what I gather, unless by ‘going strong’, you meant dead). If you have no evidence to support your claim, you will have many people thinking you are making stuff up, or misled yourself. If you know how to make a poll, ask around who would believe your claim without evidence.
I am still trying to imagine a way that it could be true, but I am having a hard time, and the fact that you are reluctant to offer supporting evidence affects your veracity in this matter.

 

[_A]

Right. you said they knew. It is just a trick on the show which is controlled by the magician.

Because of that, I asked you to give me a real event where no human is manipullating.

What would be the point? You have no similar event. All your events will have humans around who could have been manipulating. Please get to your point.

 

[justinthemartyr]

A

do you have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

 

[_A]

A

do you have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

Right to life? Well, I don’t think such a thing exists, if I understand the terms correctly. For example, what ‘right to life’ does a man have who has lost his boat and is about to drown in a remote part of the ocean?
Right to liberty? Only if you want it, justinthemartyr. It is easy to choose to surrender your liberty.
Right to pursuit of happiness? What does this even mean? If I slow your pursuit of happiness, say by requiring you to work the weekend (if I was your boss), do you have some recourse? Can you file suit against me or something? I think you have opportunities, but I don’t think you have ‘rights’ except in the legal sense.

 

[justinthemartyr]

Right to life? Well, I don’t think such a thing exists, if I understand the terms correctly. For example, what ‘right to life’ does a man have who has lost his boat and is about to drown in a remote part of the ocean?
Right to liberty? Only if you want it, justinthemartyr. It is easy to choose to surrender your liberty.
Right to pursuit of happiness? What does this even mean? If I slow your pursuit of happiness, say by requiring you to work the weekend (if I was your boss), do you have some recourse? Can you file suit against me or something? I think you have opportunities, but I don’t think you have ‘rights’ except in the legal sense.

I didn’t ask you about someone who has lost a boat or is about to drown, that has nothing whatsoever to do with the question I asked you.

DO YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO LIFE? or should you be killed and the murderers not be punished for it ? They should be told “good job”, that was your right to murder him because you could?Is that how things work here in the USA?

Do YOU have a right to liberty while living in the United states if you follow the laws? You know that is what I meant, you are begging the question and making iyt out to be something other than it is. nice try. Of course this assumes that you are a law abiding citizen, else you would be giving up your rights as a US citizen and be a prisoner of the state you live in or federally, whichever applies. Or do you have no liberty to travel throughout the USA and do whatever you like within the limits of the laws or outside the limits of the laws, whichever you choose as a person with liberty?

I spoke nothing of someone slowing someone elses pursuit of happiness. I asked if you have the right to the pursuit of happiness in the USA? Can you pursue whatever makes you happy, such as debating and discussing in this room, is that your right? It must make you happy, you are here a lot and have posted hundreds if not thousands of times, you must love to play on the copmputer because the time you have given to this discussion on your computer is huge. so I will assume you do have the right to the pursuit of happiness and that is what you are doing at this moment, including living in a home with heat/air and food and fresh running water, clothing, shelter, protection by police, fire, and emt authorities etc… you pay taxes to live in the place you do? I assume. You drive a car wherever you want within the laws of the USA and your state. You are pursuing what you think makes you happy. yes, we will just put that answer in your mouth soince you are afraid to answer my questions because it might make you believe in a power greater than yourself.

and you would have none of these things if it were not given to you by your Creator as it states in the Declaration of Independence.

 

[_A]

I didn’t ask you about someone who has lost a boat or is about to drown, that has nothing whatsoever to do with the question I asked you.

I feel kind of silly quoting myself here, but…
"_A_:

I think you have opportunities, but I don’t think you have ‘rights’ except in the legal sense.

and you would have none of these things if it were not given to you by your Creator as it states in the Declaration of Independence.

You have made so many wrong assumptions I will limit myself to pointing out just one, so as not to be too confrontational.
I am not from the United States.
I answered your question there, (note the larger text)so let’s move on, shall we?

 

[zerinus]

What is evidence to you is not as relevant.

It is relevant to me. I don’t care whether it is relevant to you or not. Do you think you can manage to get your head round that idea somehow? I now it is hard; but if you tried hard enough you just might succeed.

What I am questioning is simply how would you know if the feeling was from your god, or from your satan guy, trying to trick you? How do you know it is not another example of your senses being misled or misinterpreted?

You seem to think that you know what is going on in my mind better than I do. Well I have got bad news for you. You don’t! I know what goes on in my mind better than you do. And I can inform you that my experience with the Deity is not based on “feelings”. It is as real as my experience with my uncle (the real one, not the hypothetical one). Just as I have no reason to doubt that I might be hallucinating when I visit with my uncle; I also have no reason to question the reality of my experience with God.

zerinus

 

[_A]

It is relevant to me. I don’t care whether it is relevant to you or not. Do you think you can manage to get your head round that idea somehow? I now it is hard; but if you tried hard enough you just might succeed.
It is relevant only to you. You have yet to show how you discern between an experience and an hallucination. I have tried several times to explain this question to you. I think we better move on, we aren’t getting anywhere. We can agree, however, that you have no way to tell the difference.( at least you have stated none)
zerinus;3072778:

You seem to think that you know what is going on in my mind better than I do.

Nope, you just don’t understand what I was asking. I know that you believe it in your mind (as well as such a thing can be known) and that is still not the issue.

Well I have got bad news for you. You don’t! I know what goes on in my mind better than you do. And I can inform you that my experience with the Deity is not based on “feelings”. It is as real as my experience with my uncle (the real one, not the hypothetical one).

The uncle you told us about here was 140 years old and ‘still going strong’. I asked you what evidence you could present, and you refused. Why not take a lesson from that and stop bringing up the guy - who must have died years ago, by the way.

Just as I have no reason to doubt that I might be hallucinating when I visit with my uncle; I also have no reason to question the reality of my experience with God.

zerinus

The thing is, our own senses can be fooled - quite easily (as I have showed several times). I have been trying to find out how you can tell the difference between your hallucinations and your real experiences. I know how I do it (verification from independant, unbiased observers is best), I asked how you do it, and keep hearing that you simply don’t ever doubt your senses.
Good luck with that.
Does anyone have an answer for how they tell the difference between a real ‘Yahweh experience’ and an hallucinated ‘Yahweh experience’?

 

[Mr.Bee]

Does anyone have an answer for how they tell the difference between a real ‘Yahweh experience’ and an hallucinated ‘Yahweh experience’?

Maybe: if you had a real “Yahweh experience” you’re probably not going to talk about it.

 

[_A]

Maybe: if you had a real “Yahweh experience” you’re probably not going to talk about it.

I’m not sure I understand. Do you mean that anyone who says that they have a Yahweh experience is being dishonest?

I have a test that I have used to keep me from getting cheated. If someone says that they have faith in a god, or are seeking him, that seems honest. If someone says that they know something about their god, or they have found him, I use extra caution.

I t still doesn’t address the original problem though (how to discern a hallucination from reality with regard to religious experiences).

I could have misunderstood you, though. I hope I did.

 

[Mr.Bee]

I’m not sure I understand. Do you mean that anyone who says that they have a Yahweh experience is being dishonest?

I have a test that I have used to keep me from getting cheated. If someone says that they have faith in a god, or are seeking him, that seems honest. If someone says that they know something about their god, or they have found him, I use extra caution.

I t still doesn’t address the original problem though (how to discern a hallucination from reality with regard to religious experiences).

I could have misunderstood you, though. I hope I did.

I hope you misunderstood, my answer is not meant to mislead or accuse dishonesty, I’m only giving my personal opinion.

If God revealed Himself to me in an obvious bible-story manner (such as to Moses or Mary) which I’ll tell you right now, He hasn’t, I would be certain, given my faith, that the experience would leave no doubt that I encountered God, and not had some sleep-deprived or drug-induced hallucination. I’m sorry that I can’t be more specific.

To be honest, I doubt claims of personal encounters these days, they’re too pat and somewhat selfish in nature. If there are indeed real Yahweh experiences, those who experienced them will not resort to typical methods to communicate the revelation, treating it like a UFO abduction. We’re not going to read about it on this forum, that’s for sure.

 

[Mr.Bee]

I t still doesn’t address the original problem though (how to discern a hallucination from reality with regard to religious experiences).

Funny thing about these discussion, there never seems to be an easy answer.

The key word you use is “discern” and I think very improtant. Knowing what I know now about my faith, if I were to have one of these so called “Yahweh experiences” it might be wise for me to ask a question or two during the experience. The fact that I’m able to ask the question would reveal a lot, and the answer I was given would let me discern the reality of the situation.

The problem with hallucinations is they’re asking and answering the questions for you.

 

[_A]

I hope you misunderstood, my answer is not meant to mislead or accuse dishonesty, I’m only giving my personal opinion.

If God revealed Himself to me in an obvious bible-story manner (such as to Moses or Mary) which I’ll tell you right now, He hasn’t, I would be certain, given my faith, that the experience would leave no doubt that I encountered God, and not had some sleep-deprived or drug-induced hallucination. I’m sorry that I can’t be more specific.

You say again that you would be sure, but how would you be sure? In what way could you clearly draw a line between a real visit (or a real ‘feeling of faith’) and an imagination? You can’t say that you would just ‘know’, because the thing about convincing hallucinations (and illusions, and misperceptions…) is that they are quite convincing. Because of this, if it is you who have had an experience, you cannot verify it.

To be honest, I doubt claims of personal encounters these days, they’re too pat and somewhat selfish in nature.

Most people who claim knowledge of their god strike me the same way.

If there are indeed real Yahweh experiences, those who experienced them will not resort to typical methods to communicate the revelation, treating it like a UFO abduction. We’re not going to read about it on this forum, that’s for sure.

Why not? If I had such an experience, I would certainly relate it here. (other forums, too, by the way).

Almost everyone who believes does so based on a personal feeling that it is right. There is seldom other evidence presented, and when it is, it seems to be nonsense. (such as selecting one of the *many *prophecies and claiming that it has come true).

 

[_A]

Funny thing about these discussion, there never seems to be an easy answer.

The key word you use is “discern” and I think very improtant. Knowing what I know now about my faith, if I were to have one of these so called “Yahweh experiences” it might be wise for me to ask a question or two during the experience. The fact that I’m able to ask the question would reveal a lot, and the answer I was given would let me discern the reality of the situation.

The problem with hallucinations is they’re asking and answering the questions for you.

Not always. An illusion could make it look like someone was walking on water, when they were not (as an example). The illusion could be quite convincing, too. Does the fact that so many people experience the visual effects of illusion somehow point to evidence of god? No, of course not, but it does make it that much more important to remember that ALL of our senses are subject to being misled, intentionally or otherwise.
Funny how those who have claimed a ‘Yahweh experience’ are now reluctant to discuss.
I think it is indeed very important to ‘discern’. We have some religions burning women at the stake because they believe in witchcraft, some flying planes into buildings, and some working hard to get control of governments politically. If we cannot discern between reality and illusion effectively in cases like this, then every single faith has the same footing. They all claim the same ‘evidence’ after all.
Including the ones that seem ridiculous.

 

[zerinus]

zerinus;3072778:

It is relevant to me. I don’t care whether it is relevant to you or not. Do you think you can manage to get your head round that idea somehow? I now it is hard; but if you tried hard enough you just might succeed.

It is relevant only to you. You have yet to show how you discern between an experience and an hallucination. I have tried several times to explain this question to you. I think we better move on, we aren’t getting anywhere. We can agree, however, that you have no way to tell the difference.( at least you have stated none)
Nope, you just don’t understand what I was asking. I know that you believe it in your mind (as well as such a thing can be known) and that is still not the issue.
The uncle you told us about here was 140 years old and ‘still going strong’. I asked you what evidence you could present, and you refused. Why not take a lesson from that and stop bringing up the guy - who must have died years ago, by the way.

The thing is, our own senses can be fooled - quite easily (as I have showed several times). I have been trying to find out how you can tell the difference between your hallucinations and your real experiences. I know how I do it (verification from independant, unbiased observers is best), I asked how you do it, and keep hearing that you simply don’t ever doubt your senses.
Good luck with that.
Does anyone have an answer for how they tell the difference between a real ‘Yahweh experience’ and an hallucinated ‘Yahweh experience’?

You just don’t want get it do you. I am beginning to think that you are the one who is very severely hallucinating—or rather, deliberately beating about the bush to avoid the most obvious answers. That is not an honest practice. I suggest that you go back and read my previous posts again; and when you have finally decided face the truth, and give honest answers to my posts, we can continue with this discussion.

zerinus

 

[Mr.Bee]

You say again that you would be sure, but how would you be sure? In what way could you clearly draw a line between a real visit (or a real ‘feeling of faith’) and an imagination? You can’t say that you would just ‘know’, because the thing about convincing hallucinations (and illusions, and misperceptions…) is that they are quite convincing. Because of this, if it is you who have had an experience, you cannot verify it.

Why not? If I had such an experience, I would certainly relate it here. (other forums, too, by the way).

Well, I can’t honestly be sure of course, such a claim is empty unless really experienced.

All I can say is that in order for me to be certain of the experience I would be allowed to ask questions, and I would imagine the answers would surprise me. Now you could argue that even asking questions and getting surprising answers could be part of a hallucination, (on and on we go…) But hallucinations and illusions are tricks of the mind, God doesn’t reveal Himself to trick you or make you guess, my faith tells me the answers would be crystal clear, even after the experience is long over.

As to the second comment “If I had such an experience, I would certainly relate it here”
Hmmm… I don’t know, maybe. I guess it all depends on what the “hallucination” is telling you. Personally I think the internet is a terrible way to evangelize (for lack of a better term)

 

[_A]

_A_;3073291:

You just don’t want get it do you. I am beginning to think that you are the one who is very severely hallucinating—or rather, deliberately beating about the bush to avoid the most obvious answers. That is not an honest practice. I suggest that you go back and read my previous posts again; and when you have finally decided face the truth, and give honest answers to my posts, we can continue with this discussion.

zerinus

You know, zerinus, the one thing that most of the readers of this forum have in common is that they can read. You have been avoiding my question for almost as long as I have been asking it. I am possibly hallucinating, but the thing is, I have independant, unbiased observers who I can go to for verification.
This means that when I hallucinate, I have a good chance of noticing and correcting it. If I were to deny the possibility that I could hallucinate (as you seem to do), then I would be in very real danger of believing all of those hallucinations.

As I said before, you won’t answer, so I can only conclude that you cannot answer.

Remember that everyone here can look at our old posts and see who is saying what

 

[Mr.Bee]

Here’s a question for A and anyone else,

Can you think of an experience or situation that cannot be hallucinated or made to look convincing through illusion?

I’m thinking too…

 

[zerinus]

zerinus;3074592:

You know, zerinus, the one thing that most of the readers of this forum have in common is that they can read

. You have been avoiding my question for almost as long as I have been asking it. I am possibly hallucinating, but the thing is, I have independant, unbiased observers who I can go to for verification.
This means that when I hallucinate, I have a good chance of noticing and correcting it. If I were to deny the possibility that I could hallucinate (as you seem to do), then I would be in very real danger of believing all of those hallucinations.

As I said before, you won’t answer, so I can only conclude that you cannot answer.

Remember that everyone here can look at our old posts and see who is saying what

Agreed! I am glad there is one thing we can agree upon. I will let them be the judges.

zerinus