I am an atheist thread 2

[Armor_of_God]

Thank you,

This thread has actually been more civil and rational than most others I’ve been involved in. I agree, a face-to-face conversation with all you guys and gals in a Starbucks somewhere would probably be more fruitful. The “internet tone” is unavoidable.

But A brings up a question that cannot be answered, and in doing so challenges one’s faith, the tone, real or not, then becomes angry.

I then have to resort to my actions, and what is in my heart, to justify my opinion, which I find impossible to do on a forum thread.

I believe faith without question is superstition, but you have to be careful about what questions you ask, you might not like the answers.

Right now I’m not angry and I sleep pretty good at night.

Hi, Mr. Bee

I’m glad to know all is well in your heart!

Yes, I would much rather have face-to-face conversations. The Internet can be pretty flat and impersonal. I would like to be able to see people’s faces and hear their voices, and share some laughs, too.

I think it is a very good thing to have one’s faith challenged from time to time. I must say, I find mine challenged just about on a daily basis, as it is in such conflict with general society around me.

I am open to pretty much any answer I get to my questions - I don’t very often expect to get an answer I like! But, I do like honest reflection and truthfulness, brutal as they may be.

 

[_A]

What I’m getting at, A, is that you provided that picture as your evidence and expected the viewers to believe it was real because *you *believed it was real. Yet, if I were to post a picture of a statue of the Blessed Virgin weeping tears of blood, I am quite certain that you would immediately doubt it and ask for proof.

I didn’t need to post that picture. I already apologized for that error.

My point is that I have enough evidence to accept that there are suicide bombers.
They demonstrate tremendous faith.
You claim your faith as your evidence, it is no stronger than the faith of the bombers. Not that anyone outside could detect.
I am asking how do you know that you have ‘correct’ faith and the bombers do not?
What facts and evidence?
The only other reasonable answer seems to be that there are different gods and morals for different geographic areas.

 

[Armor_of_God]

If it made testable claims, I would likely check that first. I would also likely ask someone close to me for their opinion.
A most likely second stop, if I were hearing voices, would be to get checked out by a doctor for schizophrenia.
A medical doctor, I should say. A doctor of divinity might be still using the ‘demon possesion’ theory of medicine. I would like better to have the kind that uses modern medicine.

Fair enough. So, you go to the doctor and they tell you that you are A-okay, that you are a perfectly healthy and mentally stable man.

Now, say you go home, and a few days later, you hear that same voice again, telling you the same thing. This time, you are with other people. They don’t appear to hear the voice, and are carrying on as usual.

This voice isn’t a loud voice; rather it is a quiet but firm voice. The voice is saying something very personal to you. I don’t mean something like “A, go buy a lottery ticket, because you are going to win today.” No, the message is something very specific and personal to you (A), and where you are in your life, perhaps regarding a relationship or a conflict you are having.

What would you do?

 

[Pax]

If you know everything there is to know about Jesus and everything there is to know about Mohammed you will have a starting point for knowing which is correct. It is also necessary to look at that data objectively. Christian culture and Islamic culture vary greatly and it is difficult for each to look at the other objectively. This may also apply to atheists looking at religion in general as well as religious people looking at atheism.

You desire evidence and some has been given. Unfortunately, it is the type of evidence that you require that is problematic. Faith is always necessary, but intellectual preparation is also necessary. You have an intellectual curiosity but you also have an intellectual predisposition against belief. IMHO you are on the right track through curiosity. Your willingness to engage in conversation is good. Less emphasis on scientific proof and the assumption that everything is a hallucination would be helpful in opening yourself to other possibilities. Knowledge is not simply gained through science and not everything is established or proven by science. Even the scientific method is a product of accident, philosophy, and trial and error.

 

[Mr.Bee]

Hi, Mr. Bee

I’m glad to know all is well in your heart!

Yes, I would much rather have face-to-face conversations. The Internet can be pretty flat and impersonal. I would like to be able to see people’s faces and hear their voices, and share some laughs, too.

I think it is a very good thing to have one’s faith challenged from time to time. I must say, I find mine challenged just about on a daily basis, as it is in such conflict with general society around me.

I am open to pretty much any answer I get to my questions - I don’t very often expect to get an answer I like! But, I do like honest reflection and truthfulness, brutal as they may be.

Thank you

 

[Armor_of_God]

My Mom, when she told me about the tooth fairy, said that if I was watching, the tooth fairy would not come.
Now that I think of it, she said the same about Santa…

What did she say about Jesus?

 

[Mr.Bee]

I found out where they are written! Here you go -

Yeah… you don’t think I don’t know that already?

So I guess following the commandments, or not following them to the letter of the OT law makes me a hypocrite?

This is where I discern, clarify in my own mind what the definition of the commandment is. All I can do is hope I made the right decision and live my life by it.

 

[Armor_of_God]

I know that I spoke callously, but the majority of catholics whom I know have this idea that it is my lack which makes me unable to believe this stuff without evidence, so I thought it was my turn.

A, I think they are right, but this is not meant as a criticism, so I hope it doesn’t make you feel that way. It is simply a statement of observation. I think everyone, in God’s perfect time, is offered the gift of faith. Some will accept it, some won’t. The *heart *needs to be predisposed to receiving the gift in order for a person to even recognize faith within themselves.

If one holds that the heart is merely a mass of tissue and muscles that pumps blood, there is no room for the gift.

This is not about some deficiency on the part of the person who lacks belief. It is about the disposition of one’s heart. Brains just ain’t enough.

 

[Armor_of_God]

Thank you

You’re welcome! I think I heard a smile there…

 

[phooney]

Hey!

The last thread stopped giving me email notifications, so I took some time out to catch up on my reading. Now I check back and it actually had continued, and now there’s another thread!

It will take me a while to catch up, but I hope to contribute to this thread as well.

 

[_A]

and a few days later, you hear that same voice again, telling you the same thing. This time, you are with other people. They don’t appear to hear the voice, and are carrying on as usual.

This voice isn’t a loud voice; rather it is a quiet but firm voice. The voice is saying something very personal to you. I don’t mean something like “A, go buy a lottery ticket, because you are going to win today.” No, the message is something very specific and personal to you (A), and where you are in your life, perhaps regarding a relationship or a conflict you are having.

What would you do?

I would return to the medical professionals. Why would the voice invented by my brain be anything * but* very personal.
Who knows better how to trick you than your own mind?

There are many examples where your brain does exactly that, by the way.

 

[_A]

If you know everything there is to know about Jesus and everything there is to know about Mohammed you will have a starting point for knowing which is correct.

What about Krishna? If there is a god you don’t know about yet, and you hear about it, does that mean you have to reexamine your catholic faith?

Your willingness to engage in conversation is good. Less emphasis on scientific proof and the assumption that everything is a hallucination would be helpful in opening yourself to other possibilities.

I am trying to learn how to distinguish between true faith and dangerous hallucination. I think it is an important step in understanding faith because, to be honest, I don’t see much difference at the moment.

Knowledge is not simply gained through science and not everything is established or proven by science. Even the scientific method is a product of accident, philosophy, and trial and error.

I don’t know what you mean by this, but in case you are saying that philosophies like religions have contributed more than science, just offer examples. I will offer an example - the internet. It implies computers, communications and educated masses. I think it is awesome in it’s complexity and success.
Now, please feel free to use my example (the internet) to give us your example.

 

[_A]

What did she say about Jesus?

Mom, and I are both ‘cradle catholics’.

 

[_A]

Yeah… you don’t think I don’t know that already?

So I guess following the commandments, or not following them to the letter of the OT law makes me a hypocrite?

This is where I discern, clarify in my own mind what the definition of the commandment is. All I can do is hope I made the right decision and live my life by it.

Do you think people who break the commandments should be ‘put to death’?
Do you think that is an ethically defensible set of commandments and penalties?

 

[_A]

A, I think they are right, but this is not meant as a criticism, so I hope it doesn’t make you feel that way. It is simply a statement of observation. I think everyone, in God’s perfect time, is offered the gift of faith. Some will accept it, some won’t. The *heart *needs to be predisposed to receiving the gift in order for a person to even recognize faith within themselves.

If one holds that the heart is merely a mass of tissue and muscles that pumps blood, there is no room for the gift.

This is not about some deficiency on the part of the person who lacks belief. It is about the disposition of one’s heart. Brains just ain’t enough.

Lot’s of words, but what it amounts to is that the only true ‘evidence’ is this personal feeling, witnessed and interpreted by you, called ‘faith’.

Remember my ‘suicide bomber’ example? They have exactly the same evidence which you have.

And still no way to tell the difference, without suspending reason.

 

[_A]

Hey!

The last thread stopped giving me email notifications, so I took some time out to catch up on my reading. Now I check back and it actually had continued, and now there’s another thread!

It will take me a while to catch up, but I hope to contribute to this thread as well.

Nice to see you decided to join us again, phooney. Looking forward to hearing from you again.

 

[Mr.Bee]

Do you think people who break the commandments should be ‘put to death’?

No.

Do you think that is an ethically defensible set of commandments and penalties?

IMO; I think the commandments are. But the penalties are not for us to decide.

I contradict the Bible, I admit it.

You bring up some valid and thought provoking points A, but I can’t (or don’t want to) make excuses or justify the reason why people over the course of history took a set of otherwise good rules and decided to manipulate them, essentially contradicting the commandments. I don’t like it either. Does it mean we should abandon them?

If there wasn’t any 10 commandments, I’m sure we’d find some other set of excuses to kill each other, so don’t think blind faith is the only culprit.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I noticed that, even though there were over 1000 replies to my previous thread ‘I am an atheist’, there were still some unanswered questions.
I hope everyone will find this thread and continue where we left off.

To get us started, I had been asking a question…
What measures have you, the faithful, taken to make sure that you are not hallucinating those ‘personal experiences of Yahweh’?

I think this is a very important question since we all hallucinate, and there is often a strong desire to have a ‘Yahweh experience’.

I pray that some-one can give you the proof that you seem to need. I am not that person. For I see G D in all the creation. When Moses asked G D who he should say G D was He replied I am that I am. For the human mind can not comprehend that which has no beginning and no end. For every thing you look at, hear read all scream that presents of G D. though you may not want to believe it the fact that you wake and rise from your bed is an Yahweh experiences. If you are looking for a personal sit down with the Creator my Experience is that you will more that likely nerve find that. for G D seems to appear more often in the smile of a small child, a warm breeze in your face on a sunny day, and also in the raging storm for if you watch the lighting and lissin
to the thunder you can see and hear that it is G D keeps it from totaling ending all thing upon this small little planet.

As for Choosing G D ( Yahweh ) over any other gods that one is easy There are no other gods. there is only Living G D. The G D of Israel, And his son our Lord Jesus the Christ.

Peace in the Lord

Scott

 

[zerinus]

Do you think people who break the commandments should be ‘put to death’?

Everything has its time and place. What may be right in one set of circumstances, and period in history, may not be so in another. Jesus recognized that fact by changing many of the harsher rules and penalties of Mosaic Law. For example, He rescued the woman taken in adultery from the hand of her prosecutors by saying, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her” (John 8:7). He also told the Jews that divorce in most instances was wrong, and that the reason why it was permitted in the days of Moses was because of the “hardness of their hearts” at that time (Matthew 19:8). So a law and a penalty that may be appropriate in one time may not be so in another.

Do you think that is an ethically defensible set of commandments and penalties?

Absolutely—for the time period, occasion, and circumstances for which it was given. It may not be appropriate now, but it was then.

zerinus

 

[_A]

I contradict the Bible, I admit it.

I do too. Don’t worry, it is the reasonable thing to do, when the bible is so unreasonable.

You bring up some valid and thought provoking points A, but I can’t (or don’t want to) make excuses or justify the reason why people over the course of history took a set of otherwise good rules and decided to manipulate them, essentially contradicting the commandments. I don’t like it either. Does it mean we should abandon them?

In my opinion, they were abandoned long ago. When was the last time you stoned your neighbour for working on the sabbath?
The bible is not authority to me. Ethical contradictions like this are some of the largest reasons I have for this position.

If there wasn’t any 10 commandments, I’m sure we’d find some other set of excuses to kill each other, so don’t think blind faith is the only culprit.

No, but it makes it easy for people to be misled, and misused.
If someone took the bible literally, and stoned someone to death for collecting sticks on the sabbath, would you defend their faith?

How do you select which parts of the bible to contradict?