I am an atheist thread 2

[_A]

There’s also the factor of abstinence in the marital relationship. I believe the Church looks at abstinence, (for a few days each month, for example,) as a creative element in the dynamics of Eros. Brief periods of abstinence can be a creative and unitive action.

Even during a short time of abstinence, the couple is theoretically open to creation. In fact, it can strengthen the marital bond and each soul existentially.

Why would your god have a problem with birth control? He can’t make the method fail at will?
If I remember correctly, there is no method that provides 100% effective birth control, so he could easily hide his existence and still achieve his goal (which seems to be more catholics)

 

[_A]

I don’t mind telling you right here, perhaps A will listen too.
About three years ago, a woman was having the glove of Padre Pio at her home. Maybe 14 people were there including a priest. One had cancer etc.lall had a problem they wanted to pray for. Anyway I never even heard of Padre Pio and was never quite religious either. I just believed in God and it didn’t go beyond that.
As they passed the glove around, it was my turn. I decided to go with the flow, had no health issues and didn’t know what to pray for so I prayed that my children be forever ok in life.
Suddenly the next day, I awoke strangely. I had to get to confession, I had not been in 20 years or more. After all, Padre Pio was known for his endless hours a day hearing confessions.
I went to a church and had a confession. I was so happy and overcome with joy just being there, that the priest told me I was in a state of Grace. I stayed 1 hour with this priest telling him about Padre Pio and all of a sudden my desire to come there.
But it didn’t stop there. I bought all his books, all the books about the Blessed Mother’s apparitions (Padre Pio loved the Blessed Mother), started to study Scripture, history of my church, read only about the Saints, had a Mass for Padre Pio, had people at the house with a priest hearing their confessions (right after that, I had a heart attack, but was ok realizing it was Satan trying to interrupt my journey of faith).
Anyway, I started preaching, talking and converting others, went to church 40 days straight during Lent etc…I was NEVER like this before that night with Padre Pio’s glove. I also had a gift from God 2 weeks before Lent that I cannot talk about yet.
Steve, I am a living witness to the fact that there is a God. I am witness to this and that is why it frustrates me so much to see that people do not believe.

People don’t believe (at least people like me) because there is no evidence. Your experience, wonderful as it was, was totally inside your own mind. I earlier mentioned a suicide bomber who had similar conviction.
Belief is not evidence.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

People don’t believe (at least people like me) because there is no evidence. Your experience, wonderful as it was, was totally inside your own mind. I earlier mentioned a suicide bomber who had similar conviction.
Belief is not evidence.

I guess I’m at a loss for what kind of evidence you would accept. You write off sensory (name removed by moderator)ut as hallucinatory. You write off internal experiences as “belief, not evidence”. So if you won’t accept sensory (name removed by moderator)ut or personal convictions… what does that leave you with?

 

[zezwaz]

You have NOTHING to use to refute the statement, Zeus created the heavens and earth.
You have NOTHING to use to refute the statement, Apollo created the heavens and earth.
You have NOTHING to use to refute the statement, invisible pink unicorns created the heavens and earth.
You have NOTHING to use to refute the statement, some guy named Steve created the heavens and earth.

Does this pattern mean anything to you? Do you see that it is up to the person making the assertion to offer evidence in favour of their hypothesis, or have it considered (at best) fiction?

Yes and there are 2000 year old religions that worship some guy named Steve…It also has to do with faith, and if you ask me, I really hope we were not created buy a guy named Steve.

 

[_A]

I guess I’m at a loss for what kind of evidence you would accept. You write off sensory (name removed by moderator)ut as hallucinatory. You write off internal experiences as “belief, not evidence”. So if you won’t accept sensory (name removed by moderator)ut or personal convictions… what does that leave you with?

Well, it depends on the types of claims being made, really.

What is it that you want me to believe?

 

[_A]

Yes and there are 2000 year old religions that worship some guy named Steve…It also has to do with faith, and if you ask me, I really hope we were not created buy a guy named Steve.

I see no evidence that we were created by anyone.

 

[zezwaz]

I see no evidence that we were created by anyone.

OK, so we were not created and came from nothing at all…sounds real hopeful.

 

[zezwaz]

I guess I’m at a loss for what kind of evidence you would accept. You write off sensory (name removed by moderator)ut as hallucinatory. You write off internal experiences as “belief, not evidence”. So if you won’t accept sensory (name removed by moderator)ut or personal convictions… what does that leave you with?

I don’t think that was the best thing to post for an atheist. Though a story may enlighten him, I suppose.

 

[zezwaz]

I understand all of that. What stops me is that, while I would protect a human life, I would not do it at the expense of anothers’ freedom.
If a woman wants to abort, she will. If reasonable medical help is not available, she will do something less safe. (such as tossing herself down some stairs).
Having medical professionals available to assist women in this matter reduces harm.
Another important point is that, while you may think that it is a human life, it is more important what the mother thinks. If she thinks it is a precious life, she will act accordingly. Wonderfully.
If she thinks it is a sentence of a trap, what sort of nurturing do you think she will do? Having seen many people living with FASD, I know what often happens.
I will not enslave a woman. The church may think her rights are not important, but I am a person, not a church.

You are not enslaving a women. You are simply stopping her from killing the young one. Also, abortion is not murder because murder is the unlawful killing of someone else. Abortion is legal there fore not murder.

 

[zezwaz]

A,

I suspect that in your life, you have experienced an event (or more than one) that caused you great pain, sorrow, anger - or all of these. Perhaps it was something that did not turn out the way you had hoped, or perhaps it was someone who let you down. Whatever took place, it affected you to the point where you set your heart against any belief in God.

I say this because you have stated that you came on this forum to understand faith. Yet, you did not come here merely as someone open and questioning, looking for an explanation of what draws people to faith - any faith.

Rather, your posts show some serious hatred and bitterness coming from you, directed at Who you perceive the Christian God to be and what you perceive the Catholic Church to be. This is greatly hindering your attempts to learn about faith.

 

[_A]

OK, so we were not created and came from nothing at all…sounds real hopeful.

What do you think ‘hope’ has to do with the real world that we must live in?

 

[Seshat]

This is anecdotal. There are probably just as many Atheists who convert.

It is not uncommon for most people, especially in this country, to be raised, at least nominally, in some faith framework. It is also not uncommon for a period of doubt which often leads to Atheism during the adolecsent years through the twenties or longer.

This is not a bad thing. As Dante said, “at the foot of truth, like shoots, doubts spring up; this is a natural force urging us to the top, from height to height.”

You started questioning and found no evidence to suggest a God exists, I also questioned and came to the opposite conclusion.

I was a bit older when I became an atheist - I was 35.

But I didn’t just question. I read books and magazines, asked pastors, asked priests, asked nuns. I even returned to the catholic church after years as a fundamentalist christian in my quest for answers. There just wasn’t anything there.

It may be anecdotal, but it is the same level of evidence that I am told nearly every day should lead me straight back to god. I see it almost daily as the moderator on a mostly atheist forum.

 

[_A]

You are not enslaving a women. You are simply stopping her from killing the young one. Also, abortion is not murder because murder is the unlawful killing of someone else. Abortion is legal there fore not murder.

Not only are you stopping her from killing the fetus, you are taking responsibility for the resulting child. Unless of course you just walk away.

 

[Seshat]

And do you not understand what I’M saying? Science can’t just plop singularity into an equation, or a big bang, or time, or space, or ANYTHING until they address how these elements or ANY element of their theory got here. You pride yourself as a critical thinker. Did singularity just get here by magic?

Until they answer the question of questions, I would suggest they have crossed the line from science into faith.

Just because science cannot answer a particular question yet, does not mean that the default position should be “god did it.” There may be questions that are not answered in our lifetimes, but science is constantly building on previous knowledge to answer questions every day.

 

[BlaineTog]

Thanks for your explanation. I have a clearer view of where you’re coming from now. You mentioned that god decides when a woman should conceive. Does god also decide that a woman should be infertile? If so, isn’t this diplaying a lack of openness to life, not the woman’s fault. Now, let’s suppose we have a happily married catholic couple. The husband contracts HIV (through a blood transfusion, of course). How is this couple ever to give the whole of themselves to each other? If they do, the wife will likely contract HIV. Even worse, she may become pregnant and pass it onto her fetus. Wouldn’t birth control be necessary in this case? Or would you argue abstainance? If they abstain from sex wouldn’t that be a display of lack of openness to life as you explained it?

You have two questions: one relating to infertility, and one relating to situations in which sex could be dangerous.

With regards to infertility, it’s something beyond her control, and, more to the point, not something she has willed. As such, it isn’t displaying a lack of openness to life, since in all probability her infertility will make her want a child even more. It also isn’t preventing her from giving herself to her husband because she isn’t being dishonest with him. In other words, a crucial part of sex is “In giving myself to you as much as I am able, I am completely willing to take whatever the consequences of this coupling are.” Contraception makes this statement dishonest; simply being infertile does not.

With regards to HIV and other such things, abstaining from sex is never sinful. Sex is a method through which God confers grace, but it isn’t the only method, nor do you need to have grace through this method at regular intervals. Chastity is a virtue. Sex in marriage is in keeping with chastity, but so is abstaining. Now, the couple does need to have sex to be married: the actual sacrament of marriage isn’t the vows or the kiss or the rings, but the sex on the couple’s wedding night; without that sex, the marriage never actually occurs. Other than that, though, once married, always married, and though sex affirms this, the affirmation is not strictly speaking necessary. The “openness to life” doesn’t mean you constantly have sex so as to eventually be able to field your own football team, but is instead something part of each individual act of sex.

I understand all of that. What stops me is that, while I would protect a human life, I would not do it at the expense of anothers’ freedom.

So if two people were imprisoned for no crime whatsoever and each person were innocent, but if killing one would release the other, you would kill the one?

If a woman wants to abort, she will. If reasonable medical help is not available, she will do something less safe. (such as tossing herself down some stairs).
Having medical professionals available to assist women in this matter reduces harm.

That’s no argument. If someone wants to murder someone else enough, in all likelihood they will. Why doesn’t the Church run an assassination business on the side, to make sure the murderer doesn’t get harmed? Perhaps you could pay the government a certain amount of money and they would execute anyone you wanted, and the person would have to comply by law.

No, if something is wrong, that means it should not happen, and you should have no part in allowing it to happen.

Another important point is that, while you may think that it is a human life, it is more important what the mother thinks.

What is important is the truth, nothing more. If a mother though her 18 year old son were a demon, should she be allowed to kill him?

If she thinks it is a sentence of a trap, what sort of nurturing do you think she will do? Having seen many people living with FASD, I know what often happens.

Adoption adoption adoption.

I will not enslave a woman. The church may think her rights are not important, but I am a person, not a church.

The church thinks no such thing. Her rights are extremely important. The just happen to be inapplicable here. A life is at stake; all else on earth pales to that.

Oh, and A, please use the Multi-Quote button. It’s just to the right of “Quote,” and it means you can easily use one or two posts to respond to many.

Why in the world can’t you use birth control? Is there any reason for this, or is it more unfounded dogma?

I gave the Church’s reasons just a few posts afterward, when Minnie asked.

(con’t in next post)

 

[BlaineTog]

(con’t from previous post)

People don’t believe (at least people like me) because there is no evidence. Your experience, wonderful as it was, was totally inside your own mind. I earlier mentioned a suicide bomber who had similar conviction.
Belief is not evidence.

I ask you again, what evidence do you have that the law of noncontradiction isn’t just in your mind, other than circular evidence? What evidence do you have that your sense perceptions aren’t just in your mind, other than circular evidence? If you’ve discovered such evidence, hundreds, thousands, of years of epistemologists would love you hear from you.

You are not enslaving a women. You are simply stopping her from killing the young one. Also, abortion is not murder because murder is the unlawful killing of someone else. Abortion is legal there fore not murder.

Whether something is murder or not according to moral standards has nothing to do with the law, nothing whatsoever. The holocaust was lawful, after all.

Just because science cannot answer a particular question yet, does not mean that the default position should be “god did it.” There may be questions that are not answered in our lifetimes, but science is constantly building on previous knowledge to answer questions every day.

Agreed. God did everything, whether science knows why or not. Placing the weight on belief on the unknown is lazy and dangerous, as it’s setting yourself up for a fall. Belief is beyond knowledge.

I know this isn’t how you were looking at the question, but still, it’s true. I do believe that science may one day learn all the “hows,” and I see that as immaterial to the question of God’s existence. There are atheists and theists in every age.

 

[Seshat]

Why would your god have a problem with birth control? He can’t make the method fail at will?
If I remember correctly, there is no method that provides 100% effective birth control, so he could easily hide his existence and still achieve his goal (which seems to be more catholics)

That does puzzle me also. If it is god’s will that a particular woman become pregnent at a particular time, why is he defeated so easily by chemicals in a pill or a piece of latex?

Although when I have asked about this before, I’ve been told it had to do with free will and allowing people to condemn themselves. But it seems to me that according to what I told when I was a believer, god imposes his will on people all the time - illness, losing a job, natural disasters, even a flat tire, and such are all attributed to “god’s will” regardless of what the believer wanted to do with his or her life.

 

[_A]

So if two people were imprisoned for no crime whatsoever and each person were innocent, but if killing one would release the other, you would kill the one?

I can’t imagine a real situation such as this, but if the two prisoners agreed, then yes, I think I would help them to escape.

That’s no argument. If someone wants to murder someone else enough, in all likelihood they will. Why doesn’t the Church run an assassination business on the side, to make sure the murderer doesn’t get harmed? Perhaps you could pay the government a certain amount of money and they would execute anyone you wanted, and the person would have to comply by law.

Women will continue to abort fetuses. Most of these happen automatically, and often without the woman even knowing she was pregnant.
What if the woman doesn’t believe in your god? Can she take the morning after pill in that case? Do you force these irrational beliefs on others, even if they disagree?

What is important is the truth, nothing more. If a mother though her 18 year old son were a demon, should she be allowed to kill him?

That is quite a different situation. Are you seriously comparing an 18 year old adult to a clump of cells which might can’t see, hear, feel or think?

Adoption adoption adoption.

Yes, in my line of work, I see what happens when women are forced to keep babies (usually from pressure from religious folk) to term. They keep right on drinking, and then give the baby to someone else to raise.
This seems like a good idea to you?
How many of these ‘problem children’ have you adopted?

The church thinks no such thing. Her rights are extremely important. The just happen to be inapplicable here. A life is at stake; all else on earth pales to that.

Do you insist that your sperm be cared for just as well as this clump of cells? Or is this just aimed against women?
I can’t wait until they can remove the fetus and place it in your belly. That will be the only chance you have to put your money where your mouth is.
If someone wants to put something in, or take something out of their body, that is their business only.

Oh, and A, please use the Multi-Quote button. It’s just to the right of “Quote,” and it means you can easily use one or two posts to respond to many.

I didn’t see it, and don’t know what you mean.

I gave the Church’s reasons just a few posts afterward, when Minnie asked.

(con’t in next post)

That didn’t make sense to me, but thanks.

 

[Seshat]

A,

I suspect that in your life, you have experienced an event (or more than one) that caused you great pain, sorrow, anger - or all of these. Perhaps it was something that did not turn out the way you had hoped, or perhaps it was someone who let you down. Whatever took place, it affected you to the point where you set your heart against any belief in God.

I say this because you have stated that you came on this forum to understand faith. Yet, you did not come here merely as someone open and questioning, looking for an explanation of what draws people to faith - any faith.

Rather, your posts show some serious hatred and bitterness coming from you, directed at Who you perceive the Christian God to be and what you perceive the Catholic Church to be. This is greatly hindering your attempts to learn about faith.

I hope A doesn’t mind me jumping in here, but why is it a rather constant assumption that someone is an atheist because of some trauma in their life? It would be just as condescending for me to assume that people become believers because of some dysfunction in their lives. But I’m fairly sure neither assumption holds water.

 

[_A]

(con’t from previous post)

I ask you again, what evidence do you have that the law of noncontradiction isn’t just in your mind, other than circular evidence? What evidence do you have that your sense perceptions aren’t just in your mind, other than circular evidence? If you’ve discovered such evidence, hundreds, thousands, of years of epistemologists would love you hear from you.

I have enough evidence for those things which I accept. What is it that you are trying to make me believe, because that will dictate how much evidence I will require.
I use independently verifiable experiments and unbiased observers (generally speaking). If you need specifics, I will need to know a specific example.

Whether something is murder or not according to moral standards has nothing to do with the law, nothing whatsoever. The holocaust was lawful, after all.

While it seems that it was lawful according to the catholic church (they never excommunicated Hitler, for example), international law says different.

Belief is beyond knowledge.

I disagree. Belief is just what you have when you lack knowledge. It can really prevent learning, too. Gotta be careful with that belief.