I am an atheist thread 2

[whatevergirl]

What else would you call forcing pregnancy on someone?

Why is the church so dead-set against allowing women the freedom to decide?

A woman can most certainly*** decide ***not to have sex. But, if men and women want to have sex, there is a responsibility to that. Even if you are an atheist, there are medical stats to back up how high the suicide rate is (and/or attempted suicide) among women who have had abortions, and medical problems (emotional and physical) that go on for life, in some cases. Abortion is not the answer. Abstinence is the choice. One can choose to not have sex, if she is not ready to be pregnant. Men and women are faced with the freedom to decide daily–to have or not have sex. Looking at abortion as a safety net when you made ‘the wrong choice,’ or the ‘inconvenient choice,’ is actually morally irresponsible. (religious or not) Just my 2 cents.

 

[Seshat]

I’ve not been on drugs or drunk ie I have been in my right mind. It’s not a Carlos Castenata experience.

But you do not have to be on drugs or drunk. An extended time of prayer or worship or even meditation can have the same effect.

 

[Pax]

I was born and baptised by them. I would MUCH rather be excommunicated than risk someone thinking that I am myself supportive of the church’s doctrines and dogma. Do you think you can arrange it?

You took care of that all by yourself; a formal excommunication is unnecessary.

 

[Seshat]

A woman can most certainly*** decide ***not to have sex. But, if men and women want to have sex, there is a responsibility to that. Even if you are an atheist, there are medical stats to back up how high the suicide rate is (and/or attempted suicide) among women who have had abortions, and medical problems (emotional and physical) that go on for life, in some cases. Abortion is not the answer. Abstinence is the choice. One can choose to not have sex, if she is not ready to be pregnant. Men and women are faced with the freedom to decide daily–to have or not have sex. Looking at abortion as a safety net when you made ‘the wrong choice,’ or the ‘inconvenient choice,’ is actually morally irresponsible. (religious or not) Just my 2 cents.

Even married women get abortions. Besides, it’s not like it is an easy decision. Only that woman can decide if she is ready to be pregnant or not. Why force it on her?

 

[Pax]

Henry VIII was excommunicated by the Church 5 years after he became the Head of the Church of England and was no longer a practicing Catholic but rather a Protestant. The Pope did this because formal excommunication released the English Catholics from loyalty to the king and required them to side against Rome against the king.

If the Church had excommunicated Hitler, German and Austrian Catholics would have to work against Hitler. He should have been excommunicated.

Henry’s Church was not fully established until after he was excommunicated on July 11, 1533. Henry appointed Cramner Archbishop in 1532. Cramner was consecrated in April of 1533 and then promptly declared Henry’s former marriage invalid. In May he declared the marriage with Anne Boleyn valid. In that same month Parliament had forbidden all appeals to Rome.

It wasn’t until a year later that the breach with Rome was completed. Parliament abolished all payments to Rome. An Act of Succession for the children of Anne Boleyn, and an oath was drawn up to be exacted of every person of lawful age. Defiance to this oath is what sent Thomas More and others to their deaths. Declarations were obtained from the clergy in both provinces “that the Bishop of Rome hath no greater jurisdiction conferred upon him by God in this kingdom of England than any other foreign bishop.” Parliament then declared the king “Supreme Head of the Church of England”, and shortly afterwards Cromwell, a layman, was appointed vicar-general to rule the English Church in the king’s name.

Your five year scenario is incorrect. Likewise, you are wrong about applying your perceptions of Henry’s excommunication to Hitler and Austria. Henry was the supreme secular power in England and once he broke from Rome he began exercising that power with an incredible ruthlessness against faithful Catholics. If there is a lesson from this that you think should be applied to excommunicating Hitler and its effects on Austrians, it is not the one you suggested. Moreover, Hitler was not a practicing Catholic and he proceeded to persecute the clergy in Germany that spoke out against him. There was no need to excommunicate Hitler. He had already removed himself from the Church and was in full public emnity with the Church. You excommunicate Catholics that think they are still part of the Church when they are defying Church teaching. Hitler was not a practicing Catholic and had long before separated himself from the Church. Austrian Catholics knew this.

 

[Pax]

Thanks. Galileo was forced to recite a prepared speech contradicting what he thought was the truth (it turns out he was right). Then he died under house arrest, and was not allowed to teach.
What did the church do against Hitler (just for comparison)?

Do some simple research on what the Church did vis-a-vis Hitler in WWII. Here are some sources that would help you in this regard:

Akin, Jimmy. “How Pius XII Protected Jews” (at www.catholic.com)).

Bottum, Joseph, and Rabbi David G. Dalin, eds. The Pius War: Responses to the Critics of Pius XII. Lanham, Md.: Lexington Books, 2004.

Dalin, Rabbi David G. The Myth of Hitler’s Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis. Washington, D.C.: Regnery, 2005.

Rychlak, Ronald J., and Michael Novak. Righteous Gentiles: How Pius XII and the Catholic Church Saved Half a Million Jews from the Nazis. Dallas: Spence, 2005.

 

[_A]

I’ve not been on drugs or drunk ie I have been in my right mind. It’s not a Carlos Castenata experience.

Setting aside for the moment that most people are regular drug users, I would like to know if you think that only persons on drugs can have their senses tricked.
To me it is obvious that people experience hallucinations/illusions much of the time.

 

[_A]

A woman can most certainly*** decide ***not to have sex.

Women are free in most parts of the world to have sex. This, along with other freedoms for women are the morally right choices society has made which allow us to enjoy the free world we live in.
Like, say, a woman being allowed to communicate her ideas as if they were just as good as a man’s.
Are you saying that there is something wrong with a woman just because she has sex once in awhile yet does not want a child every time?

 

[Pax]

Even married women get abortions. Besides, it’s not like it is an easy decision. Only that woman can decide if she is ready to be pregnant or not. Why force it on her?

No one is in favor of forcing a woman to become pregnant. Pregnancy, is supposed to be the result of love between the spouses and is the natural outcome of sexual intercourse. An abortion is not a solution to a problem. Abortion is murder. We cannot decide to kill other people because we find them to be inconvenient, unimportant, or unwanted. If my mother who is now 87 years old decided to kill me, everyone would consider the action to be murder. I am the same person now that I was when I was growing in her womb. It would be murder for my mother to kill me now, and it would have been murder if my mother had killed me when I resided in her womb. Why force me to die in her womb?

 

[_A]

You took care of that all by yourself; a formal excommunication is unnecessary.

I don’t mind, but are you sure the church wouldn’t want me out?
Be sure you aren’t endangering *your *immortal soul by not turning me in. The soul is imaginary to me, and quite important to you (presumably). I wouldn’t be mad at you.
Do the right thing.

 

[_A]

Do some simple research on what the Church did vis-a-vis Hitler in WWII.

I looked a bit and it doesn’t look like he was excommunicated.

 

[Pax]

Women are free in most parts of the world to have sex. This, along with other freedoms for women are the morally right choices society has made which allow us to enjoy the free world we live in.
Like, say, a woman being allowed to communicate her ideas as if they were just as good as a man’s.
Are you saying that there is something wrong with a woman just because she has sex once in awhile yet does not want a child every time?

Please establish how the freedoms as “you described them” for women are the “morally right choices” that society has made. To be specific…demonstrate how the right to be promiscuous is a “morally right” choice made by society. Likewise, demonstrate how the so called “right to an abortion” is a “morally right choice” made by society.

 

[c659smith]

Seshat,

Abortion is the most evil thing that can be committed on another Human Being and is extrinsically evil.

Even one without being Christian and uses common sense and science will come up to that decision.

Number one it hurts Women. psychologically when they look at another child, physically by not being able to possibly have another child or even death yes thousands die each year in the United States from legal abortions.

Sientists when asked if this is a life their answer is yes

Scientist when asked if this life is Human their answer is yes

Scientists when asked does this baby feel pain and their answer is yes.

Pro-Choice means choice and to make a choice one must fully understand what are the choices and what one is doing.

Does the woman having an abortion see a film on an actual abortion. Watch the baby writhed when the saline solution is placed in the womb, Watch the baby back away from the sharp instruments.

Is the woman told that organizations will completely take care of her during her pregnancy, adopt the child if she wants, or help her afterwards to care for the child. no I do not think so.

An educated and knowldgable choice is not there.

I pray one day it will be there as then there will be no abortions.

 

[Pax]

I looked a bit and it doesn’t look like he was excommunicated.

He was not excommunicated and I have explained why already.

 

[Pax]

I don’t mind, but are you sure the church wouldn’t want me out?
Be sure you aren’t endangering *your *immortal soul by not turning me in. The soul is imaginary to me, and quite important to you (presumably). I wouldn’t be mad at you.
Do the right thing.

Okay, I can laugh.

 

[_A]

Why force me to die in her womb?

(emphasis mine)

You have hit on it right there. It is her womb.
Not yours or the fetuses, hers.

She has the right to decide what happens to her own body.

I can’t see why this idea is so tough to communicate. Does a woman have the right to abort a tubal pregnancy?

 

[_A]

Please establish how the freedoms as “you described them” for women are the “morally right choices” that society has made. To be specific…demonstrate how the right to be promiscuous is a “morally right” choice made by society.

This has allowed many women to have interesting combinations of partners. Before these freedoms were allowed, a woman would be limited to one partner only.
There is more happiness in that woman, and no harm coming from it.

Likewise, demonstrate how the so called “right to an abortion” is a “morally right choice” made by society.

Because it gives women the right to make a personal choice unhindered by the opinions of others about what goes on inside her body.

 

[c659smith]

A
But the body contained within her is not hers. Can one own another Human Being?

I think the scientists have answered that it is.

It is Life and it is Human.

The same thoughts have been tossed about with salvery throughout history

It is mine and I can Kill it.

By the way if the baby truly threatens the mothers life then it is up to the mother.

A tubal pregancy the life within her will never come to term and then of course this would be 1 life = 1 life saved the mother

 

[_A]

I think the moderators will have to close this thread soon due to it’s being over 1000 posts.
I will start a new thread called “I am an atheist thread 3”. I will continue to ask and answer questions there, if you all care to join me.
I have been enjoying the discussion here, and hope that many of you will join me on the new thread.

If I have missed your question, please bring it to the new thread.

EDIT - To emphasize the link to the new thread.

 

[Pax]

(emphasis mine)

You have hit on it right there. It is her womb.
Not yours or the fetuses, hers.

She has the right to decide what happens to her own body.

I can’t see why this idea is so tough to communicate. Does a woman have the right to abort a tubal pregnancy?

She is not removing her womb or killing her womb. She is killing the baby which has an inalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The baby’s body is not her body.