I am an atheist thread 2

[Pax]

This has allowed many women to have interesting combinations of partners. Before these freedoms were allowed, a woman would be limited to one partner only.
There is more happiness in that woman, and no harm coming from it.
Because it gives women the right to make a personal choice unhindered by the opinions of others about what goes on inside her body.

Can you prove and demonstrate any of this as good moral choices? I think this is all rather speculative and arbitrary.

 

[Pax]

I think the moderators will have to close this thread soon due to it’s being over 1000 posts.
I will start a new thread called “I am an atheist thread 3”. I will continue to ask and answer questions there, if you all care to join me.
I have been enjoying the discussion here, and hope that many of you will join me on the new thread.

If I have missed your question, please bring it to the new thread.

I guess I’ll be seeing you on the other side in Part 3.

 

[Righteousone]

I appreciate your concern, but I don’t think I have a soul. The “soul” is a religious construct, so…

Call me a “fool” if you wish, but I am willing to look at any evidence you have for the existence of your god despite knowing what you think of me.

St. Thomas doubted also. He wouldn’t believe unless he were to touch Jesus’s side womb. He needed to “visually” feel Jesus. No one is worthy to even see the face of Christ. Do you need to believe only if Christ appears to you?

 

[Righteousone]

People don’t believe (at least people like me) because there is no evidence. Your experience, wonderful as it was, was totally inside your own mind. I earlier mentioned a suicide bomber who had similar conviction.
Belief is not evidence.

No A, it wasn’t “inside” my own mind, but inside my heart. You need to understand that I NEVER even cared about church, anything. Then suddenly I go to someone’s house who has the relic of a Saint, a Saint who had the stigmata of Jesus Christ and who bled for 50 years without infection? Padre Pio bled over a cup per day for 50 years and never was infected. You cannot comment about this man until you have read the testamonies about him and his life story. Then I will listen to your side. Then and then only. I am a living witness that there is a God, not only by God calling me through Padre Pio, but God also giving me a gift I cannot talk about at this time. If someone were to tell me this story 3 years ago, I’d say “yea, right pal”…but please, when I have done a 380 degree turn in my life, you bet that something happened to me and I thank God that he found me. You see, I didn’t find God, he has found me. Imagine, me.

 

[steve_b]

I guess I qualify for being excommunicated,

Does that mean you have cooperated in an abortion?
_A_:

but I doubt anyone in the church will actually do anything about it.
If Hitler wasn’t excommunicated for all the lives he ended, I will have to support a LOT of abortions before the see will take notice.

I think I am safe.

As the quote says “latae sententiae.” Do you know what that means? Excommunication is automatic when the act is committed.

 

[whatevergirl]

Women are free in most parts of the world to have sex. This, along with other freedoms for women are the morally right choices society has made which allow us to enjoy the free world we live in.
Like, say, a woman being allowed to communicate her ideas as if they were just as good as a man’s.
Are you saying that there is something wrong with a woman just because she has sex once in awhile yet does not want a child every time?

I never said that. Please don’t put words in my ‘mouth,’ A. I don’t do that to you, so please don’t do that to me. A woman is free legally to have an abortion, but that doesn’t mean it’s morally correct. If you were to see the stats of the physical and emotional damage a woman wreaks on herself from having an abortion, you’d see that Planned Parenthood and the likes of them, have fed us women a bunch of lies about abortion. Lying to women to make oodles of money. That, to me, is immoral. A woman has a choice to have sex, but if she doesn’t want to be pregnant, then she should think about that before having sex. That is being responsible. Using abortion like it’s birth control is immoral. You don’t need to be Catholic to believe this.

Why does this have anything to do with ‘being an atheist?’ (the title of the thread)

 

[ontologysue]

You cannot separate the baby from the mother without hurting both. This is the pro-life position.

If you hurt the mother, you hurt the baby, if you hurt the baby, you hurt the mother.

Have you ever seen an abortion, A?

Literally tearing a baby out of a mother’s womb, has a tragic effect on that mother, whether she realizes it at the time or not. Aside from the physical consequences increasing risk factors for various bad outcomes for her down the line, the psychological consequences are horrific.

Disregarding all other factors including the responsibility for our actions argument, once that unique human life is conceived, the FACT is that these two human beings are inextricably linked. Not only through mirads of physiological and psychological connections but more importantly, existentially.

To tear one apart from the other in the horrific euphenism we call abortion, destroys both.

Listen to accounts post abortive mothers give, who years later, describe the silent agony they have endured. I recently heard a woman desribe the interior vision she endured at the moment of the abortion of her baby’s fingers desperately clinging to her as she was ripped out of her womb.

To deny the consequences of destroying this inevitable existential link is shallow and dangerous to the dignity of two persons. Both need to be supported and loved.

On a completely different subject but still related to the explosion of abortions and birth control in modern times. The demography of Western Europe and even in the US is radically changing. Most countries in Europe now have a negative birth rate. Russia is actually paying couples to have children, Italy has one of the most devastating birth rates. Meanwhile, Moslems are swiftly overcoming the populations in which they reside.

So, soon A you may have to “accomodate” yourself to another theist religion, one which is not nearly so tolerant or rational!

 

[BlaineTog]

Thank you for that. I get that verse thrown at me all the time.

I hope that no one thinks I’m here to convert anyone. Discussion is my reason for being here. I think we can learn from each other. We probably have more in common than we realize. I may have concluded that there is no god, and you may have concluded that there is, but we can agree that there are believe systems on this planet that are poisonous, such as radical islam, or the Phelps clan (Westboro Baptist Church, the people who go around protesting soldiers’ funerals).

Even if we disagree about something, we can still have a civil discourse - and who knows we all might learn something.

I agree, 100%! Atheists are not the enemy, but Untruth is, and it’s a common foe to both of us if we want it to be.

And Christians, remember the prayer of St. Francis: “Lord, grant that I might understand rather than be understood” (paraphrase). You have no control over whether you convert someone or not. You do have control over whether you learn anything from talking with them.

Absolutely. If she does not want to give life to a new person, by her own body, then how does anyone justify imposing their will on her freedom?

Because that new person already exists, and she does not have the right to kill it.

I don’t mind if the fetuses are aborted carefully, then raised in test tubes (or have the fertilized embryo’s placed in willing wombs).

I don’t think anyone would have any particular objection to this. It would solve a lot of problems, actually.

The pro-life position ignores the fact that they are forcing a woman to incubate against her will.

And the pro-choice agenda ignores the fact* that they are giving the mother carte blanche to murder an innocent person.

*Yes yes yes, I know they don’t agree that it’s a fact that the child is a person and therefore killing it is murder, but that’s why this is largely where the debate lies. Unless, of course, you move it to “Murder is ok,” which which case I don’t know how the argument is supposed to precede, as not murdering others is sorta the primary reason for law, as I understand it, and the central tenant of pretty much any and all moral philosophies.

There are PLENTY of children here which will not be adopted. Many because they have some disability (such as FASD). I wonder if you have been in a government funded ‘foster home’? I have. It was a terrible place. I hope you never have to reside in one.

Would you rather have been dead?

So if we just put all aborted fetuses in test tubes, can’t your god save the ones he wishes?

Not without continual, predictable flashy miracles, which isn’t how the world works.

Only that this ‘internet’ thingy works because many scientists and technologists are either seeing the world as it really is, or it is all happening in my mind. I choose not to believe the latter, as it has no utility for me.

First, you’re not making a choice based off evidence of the truth (which is what I asked for), but off effectively pure whim. It would be like me saying “Do you have a test tomorrow?” and you saying “I don’t want to take a test tomorrow, so no.” Second, it has plenty of utility! If you’re the only thing that exists, you can’t die! The world could turn into a lucid dream in theory in which you control everything as you want it!

You seem to be a solipsist,

Ok, that’s it, I’m blocking you. This is a clear instance of arguing in bad faith, as I a) have never claimed to be a solopsist, b) made it clear that I was merely elucidating a position, playing “devil’s advocate,” I believe were my exact words, c) specifically denied being a solipsist, and d) specifically affirmed that I am Catholic, a position which by definition is not solipsist. If you have no intention of trying to have an honest discussion with me, I have no intention of getting into a fruitless discussion with you. I wish you the best of luck in life and I hope that God will lead you to the best of all possible worlds. Good day.

With all due respect, I think your justifications here (whether they be your interpretations, the church’s, god’s, or whomever/whatever) are absolutely absurd!

Why? Honest question. I’m not sure where the fault lies in them.

 

[steve_b]

I am willing to look at any evidence you have for the existence of your god

Considering all the scientific talk over the last 1000 posts

Cause and effect (basic law of science) shows us that

• intelligent design necessitates an intelligent designer. i.e. a watch necessitates a watchmaker. Parts don’t magically appear, they have to be created. After this, they won’t form themselves into a watch no matter how much time you give them, they must be acted upon by the designer. There is no way around this.
• The universe and all that is in it is infinitely more specific, complex, and intelligent in its design than a watch, and it absolutely necessitates an intelligent designer
  No matter how hard science tries, there is no way around this point.

Our very existence proves the existence of a Supreme designer, a Creator God.

Once we agree on this point, then we can move on to who God is.

 

[_A]

I am off to the new thread, titled
I am an atheist thread 3
Please go there, as our hosts don’t like threads to go over 1000 posts or so…

 

[justinthemartyr]

you are not an athiest, for you do not believe in atheism. i think you think you live in the matrix.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

What else would you call forcing pregnancy on someone?

Why is the church so dead-set against allowing women the freedom to decide?

Because weather the child is in the womb or out of the womb It is murder. NO ifs ands or buts. MURDER. We can sanitize it by calling it abortion but the does not change the fact thats is plain cold blooded premeditated MURDER.

The women knew when she had sex that pregnancy was possible. And made the decision to have sex that ends her choices on the matter. If she can not kill after its born she can not kill before.

In cases of rape killing the child does not cancel the rape and therefore is still wrong. If we as a society do not respect life at its beginning how long till we stop respecting it as it comes to its end.

It amazes me that there are people that do not see that the killing of innocent children as wrong.

I also find in ironic that a women can have here unborn child killed and that is just fine and dandy under the law, at the same time if some where to kill a pregnant women they can be charged with killing the woman and the unborn child. I mean come on make up your mind here either it is or is not a human life with proctect under the law.

Peace in the Lord

Scott

 

[phooney]

What happened to thread 3, was there a serious breach of forum rules or has it been moved somewhere else?

 

[Armor_of_God]

Well thanks for your opinion.
Still no evidence so you thought you would paint me the angry young man with his heart against god? Great strategy!

I still think if you had evidence it would work better.

I am not angry at the imaginary ‘god-head’. I do get angry when people use their faith, religion or both to force others to do what they think is right.

Hi A,

If one were to insert a person’s name (eg. “Christopher” ) in place of wherever the poster (A) put “Yahweh”, “Jehovah”, “your god”, or any other references to the Christian Deity in these threads, I, upon reading the threads, would certainly be inclined to think that the poster harbored some deep personal hatred and bitterness toward Christopher. My immediate next thought would be: “I wonder what occurred in the relationship between this person and Christopher to cause such hatred and bitterness?”

I would have the same thoughts regarding your relationship with the Catholic Church, based solely on the contents of your posts.

Somehow, I don’t think you are of a similar nature in your home life, social life, or work life. What is your sorrow, A? What is your pain?

 

[phooney]

Probably the same thing that happened to A’s relationship with Sauron, as would probably be shown if he was to speak to anybody who believes in middle earth.

 

[Righteousone]

This thread could go on and on, perhaps up until the coming of our Lord…A, do you need Jesus Christ to physically appear before you? What on earth do you want?

 

[PenguinsFan]

Do you remember that the victim was a little girl? Would you condemn your own child to nurture the child of her rapist?

Denial of abortion enslaves women.

This gets a little dicey, when it comes to women being raped. I can sorta see what you’re saying, but a slippery slope unfolds. Stats show that it’s normally not rape victims who are seeking abortions. Not sayin they haven’t. Just not the majority of cases.

This has always been a weak fight for keeping abortion legal, 2 me.

 

[Righteousone]

Tthere are many families that want to have children. Woman need to be strong and seek adoption for th good of the child.

 

[_A]

I have tried again making a new thread. It is again called
‘I am an atheist thread 3’
and I will report this post to the moderators so that they can lock this thread and we can all focus on the new one.

 

[_A]

I have tried again making a new thread. It is again called
‘I am an atheist thread 3’
and I will report this post to the moderators so that they can lock this thread and we can all focus on the new one.

Also, having mentioned this before, but I will do so again - we will simply have to agree to disagree on the abortion/womans rights issue.
Let’s have a new subject for the new thread!