I am an atheist thread 3

[BlaineTog]

After what there is no after for an atheists non beliefs.

Ok, now this is just a clear-cut case of not reading what I wrote:

Me:

If they risk their life and make it out ok, their life will probably be much better after.

Note I didn’t say “die.” The “after” I was referring to was them after getting a Purple Heart or whatever.

 

[c659smith]

Ok, now this is just a clear-cut case of not reading what I wrote:
Note I didn’t say “die.” The “after” I was referring to was them after getting a Purple Heart or whatever.

Below is your post

The nihilist (as distinct from atheism, though the two are compatible) would say that you had nothing to begin with, so there’s really no difference.

An atheist response might be that all action is whim anyway, so you might give your life to save another on pure whim.

Another atheist response that I’ve heard before is that you need an ethical system to be happy, and if the ethical system you need to be happy demands that you give you life up, then you do it, because life just wouldn’t be worth it after.

And would you mind responding to me previous post? You may have missed it; it’s a page or two back, as I recall.

And @ A: Whether atheists would risk their lives or not isn’t particularly relevant. If they risk their life and make it out ok, their life will probably be much better after. The relevant question is why would an atheist give their life to save another.

---

AHOYHOY!

Where in this forum in the past 3 days did you post a question to A on a purple heart somewhere? Risk their life and make it out? what kind of question is that?

Your post below

St. Mary and St. Joseph both lived lives devoid of sin, as did John the Baptist IIRC. They needed the help of God’s Grace (at least Joseph and John did), but they proved it to be possible for man (with the help of God) to live without sin.

There were 4 people on this planet that were born without sin and that was Adam, Eve, Jesus, and Mary all others have sinned and their lives were sin until Jesus was resurrected. So the bible teaches Joseph obeyed the 10 commandments all his life without stain? I think not. Go back to cathechism or take a bible study course.

As far as your knowledge of Catholism plesse let me where you were taught this, no where and I repeat no where does it say Joseph, the father of Jesus was sinless. What church do you go to?
Who is Saint Mary? Are you talking about our Blessed Mother?
Mary the Bessed Virgin, Mother of God I have never seen referred to as a Saint.

 

[_A]

I disagree with you through personal experences in the military 22 years 1980 to 2002

I have never seen an atheist in the military when one has the possibility of entering or esspecially in combat. Some may be Atheist before of after Military operations but doubtful an Atheist would retain those non beliefs and risk it all . Does not compute and is not intelligent with atheists non beliefs unless they think they are coming back as a frog or something. For you must put your total trust and life in anothers hands. In combat I must know that you have my back and will risk everything for me and I for you.

Here is a link where you can explore your ignorance on the subject. It is a subforum called 'There are atheists in foxholes. It has many contributors who will be able to explain their motives, if you ask them politely. If you can understand the posting rules well enough, you may enjoy posting there. They don’t allow preaching or witnessing, but it is a forum for atheists who are or have been in the military.
Here is the link to a thread created by someone who lost a soldier in the war that is happening right now. ‘Ginger’ is in active service. Why not ask them why they are serving?

I agree with you for family that you would lay your life down but I do not believe for freedom, Country, friend, or another (total stranger) not without a personal agenda.

Again with the projecting. Just because you wouldn’t doesn’t mean that others would not.

Please give me the reason why an Atheist would and how that would be an intelligent decision on the part of the Atheist?

There are many reasons why an atheist would spend his life for another. Too many to mention, really. If you can’t imaging any other motivation for doing good other than your god and his punishment or reward, I suggest that you haven’t looked deeply even into your OWN motivations.

I know why some are soldiers of fortune, wanting a college education, or do it for something to do.

Again an atheist not Agnostic

 

[_A]

The nihilist (as distinct from atheism, though the two are compatible) would say that you had nothing to begin with, so there’s really no difference.

An atheist response might be that all action is whim anyway, so you might give your life to save another on pure whim.

Another atheist response that I’ve heard before is that you need an ethical system to be happy, and if the ethical system you need to be happy demands that you give you life up, then you do it, because life just wouldn’t be worth it after.

And would you mind responding to me previous post? You may have missed it; it’s a page or two back, as I recall.

And @ A: Whether atheists would risk their lives or not isn’t particularly relevant. If they risk their life and make it out ok, their life will probably be much better after. The relevant question is why would an atheist give their life to save another.

I think the question would be best asked to the atheists, like Ginger (I referred to in my previous post) who did give their life when they agreed to soldier for the US in the Middle East.

 

[c659smith]

“Stop sending” implies I’ve been sending them over a period of time, which I haven’t, and “particular” is misspelled. But aside from those linguistic errors:

Miracles and science have nothing whatsoever to do with each other; indeed, if they do, then the miracle isn’t so much a miracle as a happy coincidence. It may be divinely inspired and controlled, but it’s not supernatural, by definition. So what you must mean is “empirical” evidence of miracles, which is theoretically possible, but it’s still impossible to prove that the miracle is a miracle and not just something unexplained. Many things used to be unexplained, and now they are not, so the lack of any immediately obvious explanation does not a miracle make.

I believe you mean “intrinsically.”

Ah, but Judaism (and therefore Christianity) was started by a man who murdered his son. Ok, he didn’t, but he was going to, which means he was just as guilty as if he had done it (as per Jesus’ teachings).

If God tells you to murder someone, it’s ok for you to do it. Mind you, he doesn’t do that nowadays, but the principle is the same.

Not at all. Even if you were to prove that a miracle had happened, it would not then necessarily follow that God exists, much less a Christian God, much less as Roman Catholicism sees him. Perhaps the incorruptible bodies of the saints are the result of a government conspiracy reaching back hundreds of years and involving aliens. Perhaps it’s something humans can do naturally through psychic phenomenon. Proof that the supernatural exists would only prove that the supernatural exists, nothing more, nothing less.

Pascal’s Wager is useless from so many angles it isn’t even funny. First, it’s possible, albeit unlikely, that there is some sort of paradise after death, but that the only way you can get in is if you’re an ardent atheist, and all Christians roast in some sort of eternal fire. Second, many religions lay claim to being true, so which one do you bet on? Third, the believer has lost something: all that lovely lovely sin they missed out on, wasting their time in Church and giving away their money when they could have been living it up. Oh sure, it’s not as good a prize as heaven, but that’s not really relevant, now is it? Fourth, the wager itself is not persuasive; it only encourages fearful hypocrisy.

That is downright heretical. It is entirely possible to arrive at atheism through nothing more than simply running into the wrong data.

Correct. But only because God specifically forbade it. Killing is only immoral because God said not to kill. Everyone has to die. The reason it is wrong to kill someone is because you’re ending their life before the right time for them to do comes.

I’m not even sure what you’re saying here. I’d have to try to interpret the intended grammar (or maybe punctuation?), and that road is almost always perilous.

That’s just a few; I’m hardly being exhaustive.

Your quote>
Miracles and science have nothing whatsoever to do with each other; indeed, if they do, then the miracle isn’t so much a miracle as a happy coincidence. It may be divinely inspired and controlled, but it’s not supernatural, by definition. So what you must mean is “empirical” evidence of miracles, which is theoretically possible, but it’s still impossible to prove that the miracle is a miracle and not just something unexplained. Many things used to be unexplained, and now they are not, so the lack of any immediately obvious explanation does not a miracle make.

You make no sense.
To prove something supernatural or a miracle the church uses science. You are totally out of line.

What must happen before someone is declared a saint in the Catholic Church and who verifies the miracles?

It must be the grand pumba
Please get back to your faith.

Worry less about my spelling and more about your knowledge of Catholism.

 

[_A]

You are getting there in understanding,

That anything that one may perceive as doing good without God is worthless as God is all that is good.

Giving all those good works without going to His glory is worthless on the part of the person doing it.
It may help society, the earth, and others but on the part of the person doing it there is an agenda and any agenda without God is
empty.

So you also say that we waste our lives, in the most important way. If you want to be insulted by someone saying that you have wasted your life, perhaps you should stop insulting others in just that way.

I think it is better to just understand that this is the nature of our disagreement. I think that believing without sufficient evidence is a waste and a shame. Don’t be insulted, instead try to understand that this is how I see the world. I will try not to be insulted that you think good works without god are ‘empty’. They are only empty in a final tally that has no reality for me, so I will keep doing good things for the reason that I do them.

Oh, I could double my wages by working a diffferent job. I stayed where I am, helping disabled people find and keep work. Why do you suppose I am willing to spend my life getting a smaller reward? I am not expecting any afterlife…I could pay off my home faster by going to the other job.
Why do you think I keep doing it?
I will tell you what I can - there is a need right now to help people, particularly those with intellectual disabilities, to develop their careers. This gives them a richer, more satisfying life (based on my observations of working / non-working lives). I turned down the money because I want to keep improving lives, and this is where I can do it the most.

 

[c659smith]

Here is a link where you can explore your ignorance on the subject. It is a subforum called 'There are atheists in foxholes. It has many contributors who will be able to explain their motives, if you ask them politely. If you can understand the posting rules well enough, you may enjoy posting there. They don’t allow preaching or witnessing, but it is a forum for atheists who are or have been in the military.
Here is the link to a thread created by someone who lost a soldier in the war that is happening right now. ‘Ginger’ is in active service. Why not ask them why they are serving?
Again with the projecting. Just because you wouldn’t doesn’t mean that others would not.There are many reasons why an atheist would spend his life for another. Too many to mention, really. If you can’t imaging any other motivation for doing good other than your god and his punishment or reward, I suggest that you haven’t looked deeply even into your OWN motivations.

I will check on the sites you have given for such a rationale but the question stands on this forum for the atheists here?

and the million dollar question that rationale is?

 

[_A]

I will check on the sites you have given for such a rationale but the question stands on this forum for the atheists here?

and the million dollar question that rationale is?

I submit that the more robust and clear your question is, the more likely you are going to learn something from the answer.

I can’t even understand the question.

 

[BlaineTog]

Below is your post

For future reference " QUOTE = name ] text / QUOTE ]" without the spaces is how you quote things, or click the little buttons in the bottom right. Doing it how you’re doing it makes it really hard to read.

Where in this forum in the past 3 days did you post a question to A on a purple heart somewhere? Risk their life and make it out? what kind of question is that?

First, what is it with you and the “3 days” thing?

Second, what does it matter if I specifically mentioned “purple hearts” or not? My post was rather explicit that in the event of an atheist risking their life for another but surviving, that atheist would probably have a better life afterwards. One reason might be that they got a Purple Heart, but they also might just feel good about themselves. It’s really irrelevant which, nor should I have to be this explicit with things so very obvious.

Third, it’s not much of a question, which is why I was trying to get A off “risk” and on to “sacrifice.”

Your post below

What? Why is this relevant? I I was referring to a post I earlier on this thread.

There were 4 people on this planet that were born without sin and that was Adam, Eve, Jesus, and Mary all others have sinned and their lives were sin until Jesus was resurrected. So the bible teaches Joseph obeyed the 10 commandments all his life without stain? I think not. Go back to cathechism or take a bible study course.

Ah, I see. This is what we call an ad hominem attack. It’s a logical fallacy because you’re attacking the person rather than that person’s argument, which is the only relevant thing.

Additionally, it’s a strawman fallacy. I didn’t say Joseph and John were born without sin, only that they lived without sin though the grace of God. Moreover, I spoke with trepidation and uncertainty, as I can’t quite remember where I learned this (I remember someone on these boards posting a link to a reputable source, but I don’t remember where either is) and am not particularly sure about it.

(Con’t below)

 

[BlaineTog]

You make no sense.
To prove something supernatural or a miracle the church uses science. You are totally out of line.

The Church looks into a miracle using empirical methods and it tries to rule out alternate theories using science, but it isn’t a purely mechanistic process, and additionally, I’m not talking about how the Church does things, so bringing its methods in isn’t relevant. Science alone doesn’t tell you that something is a miracle; it can only tell you that it doesn’t know what happened.

Worry less about my spelling and more about your knowledge of Catholism.

But again, an ad hominem fallacy.

Additionally, faith without reason is confused, muddled, and dangerous, because your beliefs can crash into each other and cause all sorts of damage.

Additionally, faith coupled with broken reason is extremely unpersuasive.

Additionally, you ignored the majority of my post.

(And you misspelled “Catholicism.”)

 

[c659smith]

So you also say that we waste our lives, in the most important way. If you want to be insulted by someone saying that you have wasted your life, perhaps you should stop insulting others in just that way.

I think it is better to just understand that this is the nature of our disagreement. I think that believing without sufficient evidence is a waste and a shame. Don’t be insulted, instead try to understand that this is how I see the world. I will try not to be insulted that you think good works without god are ‘empty’. They are only empty in a final tally that has no reality for me, so I will keep doing good things for the reason that I do them.

Oh, I could double my wages by working a diffferent job. I stayed where I am, helping disabled people find and keep work. Why do you suppose I am willing to spend my life getting a smaller reward? I am not expecting any afterlife…I could pay off my home faster by going to the other job.
Why do you think I keep doing it?
I will tell you what I can - there is a need right now to help people, particularly those with intellectual disabilities, to develop their careers. This gives them a richer, more satisfying life (based on my observations of working / non-working lives). I turned down the money because I want to keep improving lives, and this is where I can do it the most.

Yes and this gives you self satisfaction and serve mans. Which is self serving.

It is nice and you are to be commended working with the disadvantged as this takes alot of patience and fortitude. As humanity helping humanity. Man serving Man and is not Man serving God

This is the answer I was lookiing from the other Atheists on the site. When asked the question why would an atheist give his life for another. This is what I meant by an Atheist being selfish and having an agenda. For if it is Man serving Man then it is self serving and is selfish. For we are not here to give glory to eachother and to serve eachother in the name of Man but the name of God.

I am not being insuting I am only professing my faith and if I tried to explain this without all the pre-ludes I would not be understood.

I take it Atheist are here to learn Catholism and not to be insulting. Just as I am on this forum to learn about atheism not to be insulting.

Sometimes it takes some strong words to get through thick skulls (ones attention) for everyone to understand even mine.

 

[c659smith]

I submit that the more robust and clear your question is, the more likely you are going to learn something from the answer.

I can’t even understand the question.

keep up with the recent threads and you will understand.

 

[c659smith]

The Church looks into a miracle using empirical methods and it tries to rule out alternate theories using science, but it isn’t a purely mechanistic process, and additionally, I’m not talking about how the Church does things, so bringing its methods in isn’t relevant. Science alone doesn’t tell you that something is a miracle; it can only tell you that it doesn’t know what happened.

But again, an ad hominem fallacy.

Additionally, faith without reason is confused, muddled, and dangerous, because your beliefs can crash into each other and cause all sorts of damage.

Additionally, faith coupled with broken reason is extremely unpersuasive.

Additionally, you ignored the majority of my post.

(And you misspelled “Catholicism.”)

St. Mary and St. Joseph both lived lives devoid of sin, as did John the Baptist IIRC. They needed the help of God’s Grace (at least Joseph and John did), but they proved it to be possible for man (with the help of God) to live without sin.

Above in blue is your post. Your post reads they lived their lives devoid (means without) sin

First and foremost they were except Our Blessed Mother with Original sin till the time of the resurrection.

Am I correct and are you wrong this requires a simple yes or no answer. I do not care what you meant.

Show me where in Sacred Teachings, Sacred Scriptures, or Sacred Traditions where it states Saint Joseph and Saint John the Baptist did not commit any sins during their lifetime.

You did not answer who is Saint Mary?

Additionally, faith without reason is confused, muddled, and dangerous, because your beliefs can crash into each other and cause all sorts of damage.

Again your post above in blue

the post definitely fits you as you get your info from forums and not the church.

please go back to Church it shows you have not been there in a while.

 

[c659smith]

The Church looks into a miracle using empirical methods and it tries to rule out alternate theories using science, but it isn’t a purely mechanistic process, and additionally, I’m not talking about how the Church does things, so bringing its methods in isn’t relevant. Science alone doesn’t tell you that something is a miracle; it can only tell you that it doesn’t know what happened.

But again, an ad hominem fallacy.

Additionally, faith without reason is confused, muddled, and dangerous, because your beliefs can crash into each other and cause all sorts of damage.

Additionally, faith coupled with broken reason is extremely unpersuasive.

Additionally, you ignored the majority of my post.

(And you misspelled “Catholicism.”)

Originally Posted by BlaineTog
The Church looks into a miracle using empirical methods and it tries to rule out alternate theories using science, but it isn’t a purely mechanistic process, and additionally, I’m not talking about how the Church does things, so bringing its methods in isn’t relevant. Science alone doesn’t tell you that something is a miracle; it can only tell you that it doesn’t know what happened.

Your post in blue again above

I am on this forum showing how the church does things what are you doing showing how BlaineTog does things. Don’t look back over your shoulder but this is a Catholic Forum.

 

[c659smith]

AHOYHOY!

quote and unquote

 

[BlaineTog]

Above in blue is your post. Your post reads they lived their lives devoid (means without) sin

Yep. It says nothing whatsoever about how they were born.

*First and foremost they were except Our Blessed Mother with Original sin till the time of the resurrection.

Am I correct and are you wrong this requires a simple yes or no answer. I do not care what you meant.*

I don’t understand the question. As in, I literally don’t know what you’re asking me.

Show me where in Sacred Teachings, Sacred Scriptures, or Sacred Traditions where it states Saint Joseph and Saint John the Baptist did not commit any sins during their lifetime.

Um, no. A, because it’s not relevant, and B, because as I already said, I don’t know where in there to look as I wasn’t trying to be authoritative.

You did not answer who is Saint Mary?

Mary the Mother of God, who is a saint, as far as I know, even if she isn’t typically referred to as such.

the post definitely fits you as you get your info from forums and not the church.

Ad hominem. Which is a fallacy. Which means you can’t use it in an argument because it doesn’t help get to truth. The use of fallacies is not condoned by the Catholic Church.

I am on this forum showing how the church does things what are you doing showing how BlaineTog does things. Don’t look back over your shoulder but this is a Catholic Forum.

And yet, you’re talking to an atheist, which means when talking about miracles in general instead of the methods that Catholicism uses, you need to speak more generally.

In any case, I think I’ve made my point to the atheists: not all Catholics blatantly ignore logic, reason, and the structure of a valuable discussion!

 

[_A]

Yes and this gives you self satisfaction and serve mans. Which is self serving.

I don’t think of it as self-serving, I think of it as helping my community.

It is nice and you are to be commended working with the disadvantged as this takes alot of patience and fortitude. As humanity helping humanity. Man serving Man and is not Man serving God

I have never been convinced that there even is a god. Why should I work for something only existing in the minds of some others?

This is the answer I was lookiing from the other Atheists on the site. When asked the question why would an atheist give his life for another. This is what I meant by an Atheist being selfish and having an agenda. For if it is Man serving Man then it is self serving and is selfish. For we are not here to give glory to eachother and to serve eachother in the name of Man but the name of God.

Did you go read a little about the atheists in foxholes?
Anything a person of faith can do can be done by an atheist, plain and simple.

I am not being insuting I am only professing my faith and if I tried to explain this without all the pre-ludes I would not be understood.

It is tough to understand you at the best of times. I do wish you would take more time. I would also like to know if you now agree that there are plenty of atheists in the military. Did you read a little in the link?

I take it Atheist are here to learn Catholism and not to be insulting. Just as I am on this forum to learn about atheism not to be insulting.

Sometimes it takes some strong words to get through thick skulls (ones attention) for everyone to understand even mine.

It is also useful to remember that the discussion of gods existence is at it’s core quite contemptuous of each others position. I can get past this enough to chat here, but can feel insulted (and react poorly) when someone say, continually claims that I must be immoral (or amoral) since I am an atheist. Claims like that are doubly dishonest since I am more than willing to answer, yet the claims are made without asking.
Same probably goes for you, from your perspective.
Because of this, I suggest we explore some other things not so central.
How about Catholic ethics and massage?

 

[_A]

keep up with the recent threads and you will understand.

I have been keeping up, as you well know.

 

[_A]

In any case, I think I’ve made my point to the atheists: not all Catholics blatantly ignore logic, reason, and the structure of a valuable discussion!

I didn’t need to be told that (though I occasionally need to remind myself ), but I am sure there are many Catholics reading who are happy to hear you addressing Smith on these matters.

 

[c659smith]

I have been keeping up, as you well know.

I am very sorry that was not meant for you but for BlaineTog

Yes you have kept up and better than me.