I am an atheist thread 3

[NaturalEnquirer]

…and since you similarly cannot disprove Zeus (or any other deity), you have a god with an equal probability.

Let’s play fair. We have provided you with our evidence for Christ. Let’s see your evidence for Zeus, and see how they stack up.

So: Got any written testimonials of eyewitness accounts of Zeus?
Got any documented miracles of Zeus?
Has Zeus’s religion withstood millenia of aggression?

You’re right, I can’t disprove Zeus. But that doesn’t mean we throw our hands in the air and declare all beliefs equal.

 

[_A]

Good A:

You amaze me at how you are able to keep so many dialogs straight! You have done much better than myself when others have engaged me in debate all at the same time.

Thank you, I hope that if I forget someone’s question, they will remember this, and just give me another chance.

I’m trying to reason with you and be as reasonable and logical as i can be. What i am saying is i have seen no evidence that scientists have been able to create DNA. If one had, it would make the news on every major news network worldwide.

If they do, I think it will be.

So, i am having difficulty understanding why you would believe the hypothesis that inanimate chemicals can form the DNA of animate life forms.

I don’t believe it. I think it is more likely than inventing a supreme being, that’s all.

Are you saying you believe this to be scientific fact, despite no scientific proof?

Nope.

 

[_A]

That remains to be seen. I’m not trying to convince you a dead guy really did get up and walk (at least, not yet)!

I’m simply asking if you agree that Isaiah, chapter 53, is evidence that the prophet Isaiah predicted the exact manner of Jesus’ execution. Please look at these words and tell me what you think.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

(Isaiah 53:4-5)

That is vague enough that many deaths could fit that prophecy.

 

[_A]

But you’re not even doing that. We presented you with a half dozen pieces of evidence for God’s existence. You are free to disagree with the conclusions, but I think you sound unreasonable when you do so.

I would love to see you as a trial lawyer. The other side presents an iron-clad case built on several parallel lines of evidence. You shrug at the judge and say, “Your honor, there’s just no evidence!” Good luck with that.

So far, you have not even made an attempt at disputing any of the evidence presented. I think it’s pretty clear that you’re not interested in honest inquiry. If you were, you wouldn’t be dismissing well-documented miracles, you would be researching them. Trying to disprove them. Trying to come up with a plausible alternative explanation. You haven’t, and won’t, because you can’t. But you dont want to deal with the ramifications of that.

“Miracles don’t make faith, faith makes miracles.”

The really sad thing is that you’re just going to go on parrotting the same nonsense. “Boy, those Christians believe whatever they want, even though there’s no evidence for it!”

Have a nice day.

How is it that these miracles are not converting everyone? Would you say that members of other faiths are all poorly informed?

If what you have is evidence for a god, how do you know which god? Did you decide based on which god your parents believe in?

If you are leaving, thank you, it has been a pleasure chatting.

 

[_A]

Absolutely correct! He, who has eyes, let him see. He, who has ears, let him hear.
paranormal.about.com/od/othermiracles/Other_Miracles_and_Religious_Mysteries.htm?iam=momma_100_SKD&terms=Holy+Shroud+of+Turin

I happened to swap a few e-mails several years ago, with a Jewish scientist who worked on the team that tested the Shroud. He confided to me that there was no doubt in his mind that the cloak was authentic. He also sheepishly added that the experience shook the very foundation of his personal religious beliefs. I wish I could recall the man’s name.

Regardless, it’s a safe bet that the seemingly endless debate over the authenticity will never be fully resolved. Take a look:
allaboutarchaeology.org/shroud-of-turin.htm

I’ll leave you to contemplate these two points. First, the 12 Apostles all risked their very lives to meet with Jesus. If Christ weren’t who He said He was, would they have done the same for a charlatan? Think about it.

Lastly, let’s just suppose for a moment that atheists are correct and believers die only to find there is really no God. What have we lost by persisting in our belief? Nothing at all, quite frankly.

Now, let’s look at the inverse. Atheists die only to find that God is very REAL…what have they lost in not believing? The answer is ETERNITY, friends. And that’s a frightfully long time, wouldn’t you agree?

Maybe if you threaten me enough I will convert.

It may be that I don’t respond well to threats, though.

If there is a god, I will tell him I used reason. If that god is the Yahweh of the bible, then I want nothing to do with him, in this life or any other.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

So, A, I’m becoming confused about what you actually believe. What are your criteria for establishing personal belief? I was astonished at some of your replies earlier, regarding well-known historical facts.

You really aren’t willing to say that you believe Lincoln was assassinated, just because you haven’t done personal historical research on the subject? What kind of evidence would you require to establish that he was killed by Jon Wilkes Booth?

You don’t believe that life came together naturally. You don’t believe that it was created supernaturally. So what do you believe? I would understand if you said something like “I’m not sure if it’s correct, but I think one of the hypotheses of abiogenesis is probably pretty close.” But to just shrug and say “I don’t believe anything”… I just don’t understand it.

Help me out?

 

[_A]

Atheism is rooted in ‘self’ thinking…when we don’t ask for God to help us in life–we hope in ourselves. It’s dangerously self seeking. (not saying I have never been self seeking as a Christian, but…it’s always left me empty)

I am not sure I could think as anyone other than myself. Perhaps I misunderstood your post…

 

[_A]

Let’s play fair. We have provided you with our evidence for Christ. Let’s see your evidence for Zeus, and see how they stack up.

So: Got any written testimonials of eyewitness accounts of Zeus?
Got any documented miracles of Zeus?
Has Zeus’s religion withstood millenia of aggression?

You’re right, I can’t disprove Zeus. But that doesn’t mean we throw our hands in the air and declare all beliefs equal.

All belief is equal. That is what I have been trying to say. Even belief in evolution is a mistake.
I think continual questioning shows more respect for the natural world (whether there is a god or not) than acceptance of dogma.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

How is it that these miracles are not converting everyone? Would you say that members of other faiths are all poorly informed?

If what you have is evidence for a god, how do you know which god? Did you decide based on which god your parents believe in?

If you are leaving, thank you, it has been a pleasure chatting.

I thought I was leaving, but I just can’t seem to stay away.

I already answered your question about other faiths.

I did not take my parents’ religion, and it has caused us a lot of tension.

How did I come to Catholicism? Ay… how can I offer a reasonable length explanation?

Well, I was an atheist for about 12 years, mainly on the grounds that there was not enough evidence for religion. During those years, I studied different religions. I took a college course in world religions. I know one course doesn’t make me an expert, but it gave me some grounding. I talked to lots of believers in lots of different religions, and I had concluded that Christianity was the coherent one. But, I couldn’t get over the “lack of evidence” problem.

I was mostly studying science at that time. I was pursuing a degree in science education, so I took a wide variety of courses - physics, chemistry, biology, meteorology.

Anyway, one day I got a miracle. I’m not going to go into the details of it, but suffice it to say that there is no reasonable natural explanation. It would be analagous to a “thermodynamic miracle”, where a closed system’s entropy spontaneously reduces. The 2nd law of thermodynamics says that this is so improbable that it can be considered virtually impossible.

So I pondered the miracle for a long time, and I consulted experts in the field, and confirmed that science can’t explain it. I was left in a position kind of like what you described earlier. An inexplicable phenomenon, but I still didn’t make the jump to faith.

A couple years later, the memory of that “phenomenon” saved the lives of my wife and daughter. That’s a long, personal story that I don’t think I’m going to go into. Faith flipped on like a switch.

You may say that I simply convinced myself to believe, or that I was the victim of a hallucination. Fine. The point is, though, that I now had as much evidence for God as I had for other things that I had always accepted, such as the underlying precepts of science, or the evidence of my senses. So I could not in good conscience claim insufficient evidence.

So now I had to figure out where to go. As I said above, I had already established Christianity as the only plausible existing world religion. I will willingly concede that I had an a priori bias in favor of surviving religions, so I didn’t consider Zeusism very seriously.

Now, at the time, I was adamantly opposed to Catholicism. Adamantly. I thought it was absolutely ludicrous. I used to make very clever little jokes about how all religions are silly, but only Catholicism can be objectively disproved (based on an incorrect understanding of doctrines like transubstantiation and papal infallability). So I had no bias in favor of Catholicism, but as I began to study Christianity seriously, and came to understand the true teachings of the church, nothing else made sense.

Since then, I’ve had another miracle and an answered prayer that defy reasonable natural explanations, so I’m confident I’m on the right track.

So much for keeping this to a reasonable length. Let me just re-iterate that I was not AT ALL interested in becoming religious in general, or Catholic in particular. I have been dragged here, quite unwillingly, every step of the way, by my miserable willingness to be convinced by the evidence.

God bless.

 

[whatevergirl]

I am not sure I could think as anyone other than myself. Perhaps I misunderstood your post…

Self thinking, as opposed to God centered thinking…and relying on a Creator who knows better than we do. My own experiences have been that when I have relied on my own thinking, as opposed to relying on God’s will in my life–I have often felt empty…and looked at myself as the ‘god’ of my life. I have read many ‘new age’ books over the years, and the trumpeted mantra is typically to conisder one’s self number one…do what make YOU feel good. I even remember one book going as far as to list Me, with a capital ‘m’ …as if we are gods in ourselves. Not that you or atheists would say…‘I’m the god of my life,’ but there is a subtly in the thinking that just results in it. If we look to ourselves as being the only ones we need to report to…where do we base our morality? It all becomes rather subjective–everything becomes grey. The meaning of life, because whatever it is for you…and whatever it is for me–with no objectivity. In following God’s principles for a healthy and holy life–it tends to pull one’s self thinking into more of what is good for everyone–not just for myself. Often, what is good for me, will be devestating for the public…for my kids…for my husband, etc. If we do not think a ‘god’ exists–then, we think only our own thoughts, values, etc matter. Not saying that atheists cannot come to the same moral absolutes that religious folks have–but again, there is this notion that an atheist feels guided by self…rather than God, in coming up with moral codes for life. I think there is an arrogance in thinking that man in inherently good. Man is as good as he thinks he is …

 

[_A]

I thought I was leaving, but I just can’t seem to stay away.

I already answered your question about other faiths.

I did not take my parents’ religion, and it has caused us a lot of tension.

How did I come to Catholicism? Ay… how can I offer a reasonable length explanation?

Well, I was an atheist for about 12 years, mainly on the grounds that there was not enough evidence for religion.

I have my doubts - and will explain why.

During those years, I studied different religions. I took a college course in world religions. I know one course doesn’t make me an expert, but it gave me some grounding. I talked to lots of believers in lots of different religions, and I had concluded that Christianity was the coherent one.

This phrase is very telling. You must have assumed that one of them was ‘coherent’ before looking, or you would not have just looked for **the **‘coherent one’.

So much for keeping this to a reasonable length. Let me just re-iterate that I was not AT ALL interested in becoming religious in general, or Catholic in particular. I have been dragged here, quite unwillingly, every step of the way, by my miserable willingness to be convinced by the evidence. Thank you for sharing your story.

God bless.

 

[whatevergirl]

Further to say…I don’t believe there are any true bona fide atheists in this world…we are all seeking Truth–just in different ways. You would not be so interested in this board, if you were not in some way enamored with the* thought *of believing in God.:ehh: :idea:

 

[D_M]

Might be best to avoid it altogether!

But… I would need to be an atheist in order to do that!

 

[_A]

So, A, I’m becoming confused about what you actually believe. What are your criteria for establishing personal belief? I was astonished at some of your replies earlier, regarding well-known historical facts.

You really aren’t willing to say that you believe Lincoln was assassinated, just because you haven’t done personal historical research on the subject? What kind of evidence would you require to establish that he was killed by Jon Wilkes Booth?

Since I have not studied history (for your country) I would not say that I knew such a thing. I believe enough to bet say, a weeks wages on it, but I certainly wouldn’t bet my life without further study.

You don’t believe that life came together naturally. You don’t believe that it was created supernaturally. So what do you believe?

I do not believe. Where I find belief in myself, I look all the harder for facts. Belief gets in the way of learning.

I would understand if you said something like “I’m not sure if it’s correct, but I think one of the hypotheses of abiogenesis is probably pretty close.” But to just shrug and say “I don’t believe anything”… I just don’t understand it.

Thanks for making it clear. I don’t like the word ‘believe’ for one. The way it is used in relation to the various gods is different from the way it is used in relation to the pythagorean theorum (a[sup]2[/sup]+b[sup]2[/sup]=c[sup]2[/sup]. While I won’t say that I believe the theory of right-angled triangles, I will use it when I need to square a corner, because it produces the most accurate results.
I could use it to build an entire skyscraper, and still not believe it.
I think if you applied the same level of disbelief to your bible, it would be a great show of respect for knowledge. If it still leads to faith, then it is an even greater compliment. Trouble is, it may lead away from faith, and many have been trained to fear this…

Help me out?

 

[_A]

Self thinking, as opposed to God centered thinking…and relying on a Creator who knows better than we do. My own experiences have been that when I have relied on my own thinking, as opposed to relying on God’s will in my life–I have often felt empty…and looked at myself as the ‘god’ of my life. I have read many ‘new age’ books over the years, and the trumpeted mantra is typically to conisder one’s self number one…do what make YOU feel good. I even remember one book going as far as to list Me, with a capital ‘m’ …as if we are gods in ourselves. Not that you or atheists would say…‘I’m the god of my life,’ but there is a subtly in the thinking that just results in it. If we look to ourselves as being the only ones we need to report to…where do we base our morality? It all becomes rather subjective–everything becomes grey. The meaning of life, because whatever it is for you…and whatever it is for me–with no objectivity. In following God’s principles for a healthy and holy life–it tends to pull one’s self thinking into more of what is good for everyone–not just for myself. Often, what is good for me, will be devestating for the public…for my kids…for my husband, etc. If we do not think a ‘god’ exists–then, we think only our own thoughts, values, etc matter. Not saying that atheists cannot come to the same moral absolutes that religious folks have–but again, there is this notion that an atheist feels guided by self…rather than God, in coming up with moral codes for life. I think there is an arrogance in thinking that man in inherently good. Man is as good as he thinks he is …

I think it is a much greater arrogance to think that the creator of the whole universe has a concern for you personally, and cares what you eat on Sunday morning.

 

[_A]

Further to say…I don’t believe there are any true bona fide atheists in this world…we are all seeking Truth–just in different ways. You would not be so interested in this board, if you were not in some way enamored with the* thought *of believing in God.:ehh: :idea:

You may have something there. I have noticed that many theists have an interest in atheism, which is also suggestive.

 

[_A]

But… I would need to be an atheist in order to do that!

lol me too!

 

[c659smith]

All belief is equal. That is what I have been trying to say. Even belief in evolution is a mistake.
I think continual questioning shows more respect for the natural world (whether there is a god or not) than acceptance of dogma.

A,

Now lets take this slow.

There were the 11 Apostles that that fled from Christ as he was being fligged, tried , and crucufied.
This is historical data in Roman,and Jewish recordings of this event and eyewitness accounts as is written by those who knew Him

These Apostles never understood or believed he would rise from the dead.

Why the women had gone to the grave that Sunday with herbs and spices for the body of Jesus.Not to meet a risen Christ

When the women arrived Jesus’s body was not in the tomb and the women ran to where the Apostles were hiding and stated someone has taken out Lord.

The Apostles and the women returned to the tomb and they thought the Roman Guards and Priests guardinng the tomb took the body of Jesus—note still no understanding of the resurrection.

Mary Magdeline returned to the tomb and saw what she believed to be the gardener and said to him where have you taken our Lord?

The Gardener was Jesus and Mary realizing this ran back to the Apostles and Mary was at first dismissed by the Apostles that Christ was risen.

It was not until Christ appeared to them in the flesh that the Apostes then understood.

One of the Apostles Thomas was not there at that time and did not believe Christ was Risen. It was not until Christ appeared before Him in the flesh and place his finger where the nails had been and the gash in his side
that Thomas believed.

Now 11 Apostles and other follower could not have had the same dream. The Apostles were not in a church like setting where such visions may manifest.

11 Apostles would also need to hallucenate at one time which is impossible and then with the same hallucenation.

Jesus continued to appear to many hundreds of His followers and this continued for 40 days until HIs Ascension into heaven where He appeared before 500 people…

The Apostles then in preeching the word of Jesus and His ressurection were persecuted, jailed, and put to death by the authorities.

Now many of these Apostles by preeching the word of Jesus were put to death by slow deaths at different time in the next 40 to 50 years and none renounced.

Then the Christians were placed in the Colusseum to be killed as sport or crucified and their bodies set afire to light the roadway of Rome and yet none fought back.

This is documented in Jewish and Roman records

What are the chances that this was a hoax.

 

[blueoval]

Maybe if you threaten me enough I will convert.

It may be that I don’t respond well to threats, though.

If there is a god, I will tell him I used reason. If that god is the Yahweh of the bible, then I want nothing to do with him, in this life or any other.

I’m not here to threaten anyone, friend! I’m not responsible for your soul - only my own and that’s about as much as I can handle.

 

[D_M]

lol me too!

You’ve confused me (poor theist that I am),

so you’re not an atheist, or you agree that you reject reason?