I am an atheist thread 3

[c659smith]

The kind of evidence you present here might be acceptable evidence that a normal man lived(honestly, I don’t know what modern historians find acceptable in this area). The trouble is when you try to find the kind of evidence that supports the crazy ‘dead men walking’ legends, and ‘water to wine instantly’ legends.
To support such impossible claims, you would have to present some equally impossible evidence.

You still have not answered why it is not acceptable to just pray for the terraforming of the moon. That would be the kind of evidence required to prove the kinds of claims you are making. Even that would have to be investigated quite thouroghly.

Do you understand that normal claims require normal evidence, and amazing claims require amazing evidence?

One can pray for that and I quoted scripture as an answer when Jesus was in the desert and was tempted by the devil.

Thou shalt not put God to the test.

I can also ask for such an occurrence in prayer but the answer can be no.

That kind of question does not prove or disprove the existence of God.

 

[c659smith]

One can pray for that and I quoted scripture as an answer when Jesus was in the desert and was tempted by the devil.

Thou shalt not put God to the test.

I can also ask for such an occurrence in prayer but the answer can be no.

That kind of question does not prove or disprove the existence of God.

The question I have now is

Did Jesus exist 2ooo years ago?

All other evidence I can put forth as you mentioned would be mute if I first do not prove that fact that Jesus existed 2000 years ago.

 

[c659smith]

Every time I think I’m out, they keep pulling me back in!

I agree that copying websites, especially without referencing them, is bad form. Smith, do better.

lkddav, do better.

Copied completely, even with the followup condemnation, from atheistnetwork.com/viewtopic.php?t=3275&start=0&sid=0c2af9efb6641636a3b3a3871591e220

Copied straight from skeptically.org/bible/id4.html

At least he’s attempting to engage the evidence. But still, plagiarism is a no-no.

I agree, I meant to put the web site in. I will do better to make sure.

thanks for the correction

 

[c659smith]

The question I have now is

Did Jesus exist 2ooo years ago?

All other evidence I can put forth as you mentioned would be mute if I first do not prove that fact that Jesus existed 2000 years ago.

Now I can start with some of the physical evidence and not what was fullfilled with the Old Testament but by what was written and came true as a result of what was written and became fact as told by Jesus.

In Luke 21:24, Jesus says that Jerusalem would be destroyed and that the Jews would be taken as captives to all the nations. When the Romans destroyed the city in 70 AD and again 135 AD, many Jews were taken as slaves to different parts of the Roman Empire. Subsequent persecutions in those countries forced many Jews to seek new countries to live in. Eventually, the Jews were forcibly scattered throughout the world. Even today, the majority of Jews live outside of Israel.

 

[c659smith]

Now I can start with some of the physical evidence and not what was fullfilled with the Old Testament but by what was written and came true as a result of what was written and became fact as told by Jesus.

In Luke 21:24, Jesus says that Jerusalem would be destroyed and that the Jews would be taken as captives to all the nations. When the Romans destroyed the city in 70 AD and again 135 AD, many Jews were taken as slaves to different parts of the Roman Empire. Subsequent persecutions in those countries forced many Jews to seek new countries to live in. Eventually, the Jews were forcibly scattered throughout the world. Even today, the majority of Jews live outside of Israel.

As far as continuing the physical evidence can I dispense that the bible in the New Testament matches geographical locations, heads of States, and historical data that has nothing to do with the message in recollections through testimonies weither they be testimony or eye witness accounts.

 

[c659smith]

As far as continuing the physical evidence can I dispense that the bible in the New Testament matches geographical locations, heads of States, and historical data that has nothing to do with the message in recollections through testimonies weither they be testimony or eye witness accounts.

Can I also dispense with the physical evidence of other testimonies to include the eye witness accouts not in the bible that they match geographic location, Heads of States at the time. and historical data unrelated but used only to prove physical location facts and time periods of the writter or narrator

 

[Armor_of_God]

c659smith, I admire your tenacity.

 

[_A]

By the way to go back a few days when I asked about the 1st chapter of Matthew the geneology section) you were right to ask that first question and once you did you could see that Matthew was writting something not to do with geneology.

Looking at the geneology of thousands of years Matthew wrote there were only 5 women named.

The 5 women named had sons as a result of sexual scandal;
to include that of King David’s wife who bore King Soloman.

All having Prophets and Kings out of that scandal.

to include the last Woman mentioned Mary Mother of Christ.

The reason as to this question if you remember is weither a trained and educated person in Theology should be one to define the Bible.

I am not and would not myself have understood that writting till it was pointed out to me by such a person.

I don’t think I understand this. Are you suggesting that those verses you wrote are somehow a geneology of Jesus ancestry?

 

[_A]

One can pray for that and I quoted scripture as an answer when Jesus was in the desert and was tempted by the devil.

Thou shalt not put God to the test.

I can also ask for such an occurrence in prayer but the answer can be no.

That kind of question does not prove or disprove the existence of God.

This misses some of my point. If you want some amazing claim like your god exists as you describe it, then you will have to come up with some amazing evidence.

 

[_A]

Now I can start with some of the physical evidence and not what was fullfilled with the Old Testament but by what was written and came true as a result of what was written and became fact as told by Jesus.

In Luke 21:24, Jesus says that Jerusalem would be destroyed and that the Jews would be taken as captives to all the nations. When the Romans destroyed the city in 70 AD and again 135 AD, many Jews were taken as slaves to different parts of the Roman Empire. Subsequent persecutions in those countries forced many Jews to seek new countries to live in. Eventually, the Jews were forcibly scattered throughout the world. Even today, the majority of Jews live outside of Israel.

This is the website you are stealing text from. If you care to quote this post, you will be able to see how it is formatted and do the same yourself. Then you are giving credit where it is due.
I would rather know what you had to say on the matter, as I said before.

 

[lkddav]

Les, What I am only trying to do know is to use testimonial and eyewitness testimony that Jesus existed 2000 years ago… Once I have established that then I can go on to further evidence.

Les did Jesus exist 2000 years ago?

659

A man named jesus who was crucified for his religion, probably more than one.

Jesus Christ, Son of God. Miracle worker, walked on water, rose from the dead? Absolutley not…

les

 

[_A]

I wonder if smith has anything to say from her (his?) own mind? What do you say, smith?

 

[phooney]

@Socrates4Jesus

“Thank you for your warm welcome, Phooney! I would very much like to respond to your posts, but i’m afraid i will be unable to find them. This discussion thread is such an enormous monster that i feel like Hercules fighting the Hydra. For each head i cut off, two immediately grow in its place to take a bite out of me!”

Here’s oneof my posts! forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3243378&postcount=684

“Please tell me to mind my own business if i’m not welcome in this conversation, Phooney. I’m curious what kind of evidence for the existence of God you might find compelling.”

How about the stars visible to the naked eye in the night sky shifting position to write out an ever-lasting, untamperable, message to all of mankind.

How about in 1935 the moon briefly broke from its tidal lock and spun around to show us the dark side, where a message has been written for us.

How about DNA samples from Jesus indicating a non-human element, confirmed by carbon dating to the correct time period and including an unbroken record of existence from contemporary times until present. Even the concept of Jesus son of god we have right now doesn’t have contemporary records. Perhaps his DNA could use other chemicals besides A,C,G and T.

How about a sacred text that doesn’t require metaphor to be interpreted, instead tells us plainly what is what. In fact, how about a sacred text that changes depending on who is holding it, so God could give a personalised message to everybody. People who lie about what is written in their copy could turn bright green until they admit they were lying.

How about a personal appearance to everybody at least once a generation, verifiable (at least in modern times) by cameras, camcorders and voice recorders and verifyable.

How about not being so shy as to depend on faith (belief without evidence) and more on the same rational methods of discerning truth we utilise in the rest of our lives.

The amount of things God could do to provide evidence are practically endless, and they wouldn’t contradict free will. If he actually wants our belief and is also so vain as to want our worship, then he is responsible for this. Blind faith would be an ironic gift to the creator of the human intellect (can’t remember who that quote is from)

 

[phooney]

@Armor of God

“Hilarious! So, does that make you a borderline agnostic or a borderline atheist?”

Neither? Agnosticism and Atheism refer to two completely different things, Agnosticism isn’t a midway point between Theism and Atheism.

“Phooney, it is really quite a stretch for me to imagine myself in this situation. It is very contrary to my beliefs and the teachings of Christ.”

As I said, this kind of request is hardly unprecedented though.

“Firstly, I very honestly don’t believe that God would plant this thought in my head for me to ponder for weeks.”

Again, not unprecedented.

“In other words, I think it would be a very urgent situation involving the immediate endangerment of the souls of others. As I mentioned earlier, I believe it would involve an intense spiritual battle, culminating in a life or death situation.”

Try not to answer the question for a different situation than what I suggested though… it would miss the point!

“Those times when I am in the most spiritual agony are when I am closest to God. So, I believe I would just know what to do, by the power of the Holy Spirit. I also believe I would know Evil itself if it was looking me in the face.”

I understand if you can’t answer. This is a difficult question.

"Do you have one specific book that you could recommend to me, in order for me to gain a better understanding of your viewpoints? In exchange, I will recommend a book for you to read, in order to increase your understanding of my beliefs.

What say you?"

I have been pondering this for a few days. I am sorry to say that I can’t think of a “single book” that really sums up my point of view. I can keep racking my brains if you like, but in the meantime, I’d be happy to accept your recommendation.

It will probably go behind Pax’s recommendation of “The Handbook of Christian Apologetics” by Peter Kreeft in the list though!

 

[phooney]

@Natural Enquirer

“One thing for you to keep in mind, though, is that for every poster on the forum, there are probably 10 or more lurkers, who are honestly trying to see where the evidence leads. So even if A is just jerking us around, it may still be useful to demonstrate that the Christian faith is reasonable.”

And speaking for myself, I will continue to do my best to present my views in the most reasonable manner as well.

"I agree that copying websites, especially without referencing them, is bad form. Smith, do better.

lkddav, do better."

Agreed! We shouldn’t have to do all the citations for other people, lol!

 

[lkddav]

Every time I think I’m out, they keep pulling me back in!

I agree that copying websites, especially without referencing them, is bad form. Smith, do better.

lkddav, do better.

.

I agree with you completely. I’ll take that hit. I simply didn’t have time to put it in my own words.

Putting the sloppy 'copy and paste" to the side, I think the information refutes 659’s evidence.

les

 

[_A]

I agree with you completely. I’ll take that hit. I simply didn’t have time to put it in my own words.

Putting the sloppy 'copy and paste" to the side, I think the information refutes 659’s evidence.

les

I do think it is funny that smith and you showed us how these arguments have been done over and over again.

I do think we would do much better if we spoke to each other though. NE has a specific style, which makes him a person to me…individual. As I get to know him better, I understand his phrasing and use of language better. Same as phooney or S4J. If anyone wants to be understood in their own words, I would suggest that they use their own words as much as they can.

 

[lkddav]

Again what testimonial evidence I am producing now is that Jesus existed here on earth about 2000 years ago. Many of you are getting excited over what? that He existed?

Jesus christ or a man named jesus? Big difference.

The amount of evidence I put forth I believe in any court of law would leave without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus existed. Is there anyone who has a problem with that contention.

You are dreaming… The evidence you have put forth would have been dismissed as hearsay.

Below is eyewitness testimony and not from historians.

the existence of Christ, but few scholars would disagree that a man named Jesus lived roughly between 2 BC and about 33 AD.

A man named jesus, yes. Jesus Christ, absolutely not.

History documents that this man was not a myth but a real person and the historical evidence for this is excellent

What historical evidence?? Wishful thinking !!

For instance, the Roman historian Tacitus, writing in about 115 A.D., records the events surrounding Emperor Nero in July of A.D. 64. After the fire that destroyed much of Rome, Nero was blamed for being responsible:

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus [Christ], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a most mischievous superstition [Christ’s resurrection] thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. (Bettenson, p. 2)

In about 112 A.D. the Roman governor of what is now northern Turkey wrote to Emperor Trajan regarding the Christians in his district:

“I was never present at any trial of Christians; therefore I do not know what are the customary penalties or investigations, and what limits are observed. . . whether those who recant should be pardoned. . . whether the name itself, even if innocent of crime, should be punished, or only the crimes attaching to that name. . . . Meanwhile, this is the course that I have adopted in the case of those brought before me as Christians. I ask them if they are Christians. If they admit it I repeat the question a second and a third time, threatening capital punishment; if they persist I sentence them to death. For I do not doubt that, whatever kind of crime it may be to which they have confessed, their pertinacity and inflexible obstinacy should certainly be punished. . . the very fact of my dealing with the question led to a wider spread of the charge, and a great variety of cases were brought before me. An anonymous pamphlet was issued, containing many names. All who denied that they were or had been Christians I considered should be discharged, because they called upon the gods at my dictation and did reverence. . .and especially because they cursed Christ, a thing which it is said, genuine Christians cannot be induced to do.” (Bettenson, p. 3)

These passages indicate that Christianity was wide spread in the Roman empire within 80 years of Christ’s death. Again, these are eyewitness accounts, not historians looking back years later.

No one is questioning christianity. Everyone knows it started 2000 years ago.

les

 

[lkddav]

. After this can is established I can go on to the next step. Physical evidence.

This should be a riot.

You know this all started because someone said there was no evidence that God exists.

That’s true and your so called evidence hasn’t changed that.

Now there is evidence weither one believes that evidence as a whole is another thing.

But one cannot say there is no evidence and I plan to disprove that.

I know you have no evidence. Do you know why? If you had evidence for god you would not be on this forum… You would be famous worldwide.
You would be the first person in 2000 years to prove the existence of god.

So why are you on the forum shooting the bull with us atheist???



les

 

[lkddav]

Now I can start with some of the physical evidence and not what was fullfilled with the Old Testament but by what was written and came true as a result of what was written and became fact as told by Jesus.

In Luke 21:24, Jesus says that Jerusalem would be destroyed and that the Jews would be taken as captives to all the nations. When the Romans destroyed the city in 70 AD and again 135 AD, many Jews were taken as slaves to different parts of the Roman Empire. Subsequent persecutions in those countries forced many Jews to seek new countries to live in. Eventually, the Jews were forcibly scattered throughout the world. Even today, the majority of Jews live outside of Israel.

If jesus spoke the truth, what about that answering prayers thing we haven’t got back to yet…

les