I am an atheist thread 3

[_A]

The trouble with Christianity, A, is that Christians believe that He is your God, too. And that He loves you as much as He loves them.

Quite arrogant, when you give it a little thought. There are many gods (Allah, Krishna and Jehova are just three of many) and suggesting that your god is mine is not friendly at all. I don’t want to be included in your mythos. I have too much respect for persons to allow myself to be included.
I have never heard of a god who is worthy of my worship. I can’t imagine why your all-powerful god would even like worship.

The other problem with Christianity is that Christians believe that God is seeking you, with great love and compassion.

I have not seen any of what I would call love and compassion. This particular god you speak of loves suffering (so much, in fact that he had himself tortured to death, some say). He has compassion for his chosen people, but the rest are going to be tortured for not worshiping him.

No thank you.

 

[_A]

If you are game, my good A, i’d like to point out the predictions in this one chapter of Isaiah and ask your opinion as to whether they are divine, rather than human, in origin. Whether or not they meet Phooney’s nod of approval is up to him to say, if he is willing to participate in the dialog.

I don’t see anything there that even looks as if it *might *be a prophecy…perhaps I am a bit thick this morning…had several friends over for a bottle of wine last night…

 

[Armor_of_God]

Quite arrogant, when you give it a little thought.

I have given it much thought over the years, and I respectfully disagree. I think it requires a fair amount of humility to acknowledge that there is something greater than ourselves, and that one person is equal to any other. I think the assertion that God doesn’t exist because He has not personally visited someone for coffee requires a lot less humility and is a lot more presumptuous.

There are many gods (Allah, Krishna and Jehova are just three of many) and suggesting that your god is mine is not friendly at all.

The Christian belief holds that there is One True God.

I don’t want to be included in your mythos. I have too much respect for persons to allow myself to be included.

I will concede that you have respect for those people who share your views.

I have never heard of a god who is worthy of my worship. I can’t imagine why your all-powerful god would even like worship.
I have not seen any of what I would call love and compassion. This particular god you speak of loves suffering (so much, in fact that he had himself tortured to death, some say). He has compassion for his chosen people, but the rest are going to be tortured for not worshiping him.

No thank you.

I am truly sorry that you have never experienced God’s love and compassion. No, He doesn’t love suffering. He loves us so much that He suffered for us.

Anyone who proclaims God as Savior is His “chosen” one (it is our choice), and we choose “torture”, too.

 

[whatevergirl]

I have given it much thought over the years, and I respectfully disagree. I think it requires a fair amount of humility to acknowledge that there is something greater than ourselves, and that one person is equal to any other. I think the assertion that God doesn’t exist because He has not personally visited someone for coffee requires a lot less humility and is a lot more presumptuous.

I really love how you put this! Good post.

 

[_A]

I have given it much thought over the years, and I respectfully disagree. I think it requires a fair amount of humility to acknowledge that there is something greater than ourselves, and that one person is equal to any other.

You say ‘acknowledged’ like the existence of gods were an established fact. You have not even offered evidence which makes your god more likely than any other, and I would say that it is not humility that is required, but a suspention of rational faculty. I could be wrong about this, but so far, every bit of evidence for god requires that I believe first that there is really a god, then I get the evidence.
I don’t believe.
I will not suspend reason just to see what I get instead.

I think the assertion that God doesn’t exist because He has not personally visited someone for coffee requires a lot less humility and is a lot more presumptuous.

What about the fact that god does not offer any evidence (aside from the personal feelings of his followers)? How does no evidence fit with your world-view? Does it make you feel stronger in your faith when you know that there is none?

The Christian belief holds that there is One True God.

So do lots of religions. What is the point of reminding me of this bit of data. The jews (who have an older book than you, I believe) believe that the one you call Jesus was not a god. Since their book is older (and much of your bible comes from the hebrew books) theirs is more likely to be right, isn’t it?

I will concede that you have respect for those people who share your views.

Thanks. I post respectfully on forums where my views are popular, and where they are not. I concede that you respect anyone who chooses your god, but what if I don’t? Can you respect that I don’t believe and would rather not take part in it? Can you respect me enough to not hang your religious labels on me (such as ‘sinner’)?
Will you insist that I am part of your mythos even though I deny it?

I am truly sorry that you have never experienced God’s love and compassion.

I know all about it. I simply choose not to accept dogma and doctrine in place of self-discipline.

No, He doesn’t love suffering. He loves us so much that He suffered for us.

He loves suffering so much that he invented it, then invented beings to suffer.

Anyone who proclaims God as Savior is His “chosen” one (it is our choice), and we choose “torture”, too.

There is another choice. Letting the evidence available in the world to be a base for choices.

 

[_A]

Armor of God;3214352:

I have given it much thought over the years, and I respectfully disagree. I think it requires a fair amount of humility to acknowledge that there is something greater than ourselves, and that one person is equal to any other. I think the assertion that God doesn’t exist because He has not personally visited someone for coffee requires a lot less humility and is a lot more presumptuous.

I really love how you put this! Good post.

He is a good writer, isn’t he.

If you never see or feel any true existence of your god, how long do you wait before deciding that you might have been misled? For Mother Theresa she waited over 40 years, and still had nothing.

Is god’s apathy evidence of gods existence?

 

[whatevergirl]

whatevergirl;3214369:

He is a good writer, isn’t he.

If you never see or feel any true existence of your god, how long do you wait before deciding that you might have been misled? For Mother Theresa she waited over 40 years, and still had nothing.

Is god’s apathy evidence of gods existence?

I believe that God exists–and I believe there is evidence of God. But, it is entirely possible for a person to close his/her eyes to His existence, and thus, not believe. It is your right, and I can’t force you to believe, A.

I will say–I would rather live as a believer and be found wrong when I die, than to live as an atheist refusing to believe in God–and find out I was wrong when I die. (Not the reason I believe certainly) It is actually harder to believe that the vast beauty of the universe, where there is no timetable–only infinity–was a happenstance, random occurence. From a logical viewpoint, it seems highly unlikely that an infinite universe has no Creator.

Just my thoughts. I don’t wish to convince you A. Rather, I pray that you will at least open your mind and heart to the possibility of it.

 

[whatevergirl]

whatevergirl;3214369:

He is a good writer, isn’t he.

If you never see or feel any true existence of your god, how long do you wait before deciding that you might have been misled? For Mother Theresa she waited over 40 years, and still had nothing.

Is god’s apathy evidence of gods existence?

Since you are speaking of Mother Teresa, I’m not sure what you mean by ‘she had nothing?’ I am reading her book, Come Be My Light, currently, and I don’t recall coming across where she felt barren about God, at all. We all have moments–believers alike–where we question ‘where is God in all of this agony I’m seeing, or I am in?’ It doesn’t show lack of faith, rather it shows our humanness.

Also Mother Teresa was also noted saying…'If you are a Christian, be the best Christian you can be, if you are a Jew, be the best Jew you can be…" (and she went on with other faiths) Meaning, that as long as one is open to believing in God–there is great hope for that person. I don’t think she meant that people should not consider Catholicism, but she also didn’t believe in religious strife between people.

 

[whatevergirl]

that is weird–that above post made it look like I said that…sigh…I don’t know why that happens at times?

 

[_A]

I believe that God exists–and I believe there is evidence of God. But, it is entirely possible for a person to close his/her eyes to His existence, and thus, not believe. It is your right, and I can’t force you to believe, A.

That is really the crux of this. I can’t force me, either.

I will say–I would rather live as a believer and be found wrong when I die, than to live as an atheist refusing to believe in God–and find out I was wrong when I die. (Not the reason I believe certainly)

That is known as Pascal’s Wager. I think of it the other way.
If one of the currently popular gods happens to be the right one, there is a good chance that he will take quite a dim view of someone worshiping the wrong god. Because of that, it is safer to worship no gods, until some major evidence presents itself.
From what I gather about gods, they are usually quite jealous and irrational about worshiping the wrong god. I risk less than any choosing theist, since I have certainly not worshipped the wrong god.

It is actually harder to believe that the vast beauty of the universe, where there is no timetable–only infinity–was a happenstance, random occurence.

It is a lot harder. Science is much harder than religion.
Perhaps that is why there are fewer scientists than theists.

From a logical viewpoint, it seems highly unlikely that an infinite universe has no Creator.

Speaking of logic, do you know how to use it? Most people have a casual knowledge of the word (like you or I), but few can draw out a truth-table and use symbolic logic the way that it really works.
Perhaps what you mean is that, with your current understanding of the world around you, you assume the universe is infinite and your incredulity causes you to argue that there is no creator.

Just my thoughts. I don’t wish to convince you A. Rather, I pray that you will at least open your mind and heart to the possibility of it.

I appreciate that. My mind is open, inasmuch as I am here chatting. As to my heart being open, I really want to keep the blood in there. Liquids don’t mix well with this type of computer!
Have you ‘opened’ yourself to the possibility that the theory of evolution is a stronger theory than ‘on the n[sup]th[/sup] day, god created animals’ ?

 

[_A]

Since you are speaking of Mother Teresa, I’m not sure what you mean by ‘she had nothing?’

Letters she wrote for years claiming that she felt no presence.
If you are limiting yourself only to church-approved accounts, then I am afraid you will have to also read ‘The Missionary Position’, by Christopher Hitchins. He was invited to help with the research by the vatican, I understand.

 

[whatevergirl]

Letters she wrote for years claiming that she felt no presence.
If you are limiting yourself only to church-approved accounts, then I am afraid you will have to also read ‘The Missionary Position’, by Christopher Hitchins. He was invited to help with the research by the vatican, I understand.

She never lost her faith, though–her hope in God. I am reading it…it is quite moving, although a little…what’s the word…‘heavy.’ Like it’s a heavy book to read–meaning, I feel kind of saddened when I’m reading it, at the same time, I can relate to moments in my life where I felt indifferent about God. But, I never lost faith.

When it comes to faith, feelings are really meaningless. Even if we do not have faith in ‘a god’ let’s say–we shouldn’t live our live on feelings. It’s a bad way to live, I at least think so. How many times have I ‘felt’ one way on a particular day, and then given a good night’s rest, felt totally different the next! That’s why people shouldn’t make decisions when upset. It’s not wise to allow our feelings to rule our lives. Mother Teresa ‘felt’ no presence, that doesn’t mean she stopped believing in it.

Yes, I use logic-I hope that wasn’t a jab at my mystical mind, A.

And the universe is infinite–our human minds cannot grasp the universe, and how long it would take to travel through galaxies. A human cannot create anything, either. We can only discover, at best. We cannot create air, atmosphere, etc…so, ‘some being’ had to create it. Man did not, for man cannot create, but only discover.

I must be going to sleep now–but, I know you will have something for me to read when I return tomorrow, right? God bless you, A. (and He does love you–just be open to that possibility…that’s all you need to be)

 

[_A]

When it comes to faith, feelings are really meaningless.

What an odd thing to say…

Even if we do not have faith in ‘a god’ let’s say–we shouldn’t live our live on feelings. It’s a bad way to live, I at least think so. How many times have I ‘felt’ one way on a particular day, and then given a good night’s rest, felt totally different the next! That’s why people shouldn’t make decisions when upset. It’s not wise to allow our feelings to rule our lives. Mother Teresa ‘felt’ no presence, that doesn’t mean she stopped believing in it.

If someone who worked as hard as she did to believe did not have any evidence, would you consider that there is simply no evidence?

Yes, I use logic-I hope that wasn’t a jab at my mystical mind, A.

More a jab at how casually the word is used (even by myself) when it is such a careful discipline.

And the universe is infinite

What makes you believe this?

–our human minds cannot grasp the universe,

There are many people working at ‘grasping’ it, instead of reading a 2000 year old book and claiming it cannot be done.

Man did not, for man cannot create, but only discover.

But man has created - he created many false gods. I say all of the ones which man created are false, you chose one and insist that it is true.

God bless you, A.

Thanks, and I hope you are blessed with questions.

 

[Armor_of_God]

You say ‘acknowledged’ like the existence of gods were an established fact.

Of course! Would you expect anything different from a believer? If I believe something to be true, I acknowledge that it is so.

You have not even offered evidence which makes your god more likely than any other, and I would say that it is not humility that is required, but a suspention of rational faculty.

We’re back to the suspension vs. transcendence thing, hey? As for evidence, you’re a smart guy. You have all the tools to look at the historical evidence for yourself.

I could be wrong about this, but so far, every bit of evidence for god requires that I believe first that there is really a god, then I get the evidence.

I think you’re getting closer to understanding, A. The kind of evidence you’re looking for is really restricting your openness to the possibilities of what can be considered evidence in matters of faith.

I don’t believe.
I will not suspend reason just to see what I get instead.
What about the fact that god does not offer any evidence (aside from the personal feelings of his followers)? How does no evidence fit with your world-view? Does it make you feel stronger in your faith when you know that there is none?

See my above comments, A. When a person has faith, their eyes are opened in a new way, and the evidence is all around.

So do lots of religions. What is the point of reminding me of this bit of data. The jews (who have an older book than you, I believe) believe that the one you call Jesus was not a god. Since their book is older (and much of your bible comes from the hebrew books) theirs is more likely to be right, isn’t it?

The point of my mentioning that Christians believe in One True God was to try to explain why a Christian would hold that their God is also your God and Joe’s God. All the other gods are not truly gods in the sense of Creator and Redeemer.

The God the Jews worship is the same God that Christians worship - the Jews are our ancestors.

Thanks. I post respectfully on forums where my views are popular, and where they are not.

This was my roundabout way of saying that you do not really respect opposing views. As in your comments below.

I concede that you respect anyone who chooses your god, but what if I don’t? Can you respect that I don’t believe and would rather not take part in it? Can you respect me enough to not hang your religious labels on me (such as ‘sinner’)?
Will you insist that I am part of your mythos even though I deny it?

Yes, I certainly can respect your views. Can you please show me where I have ever labelled you anything, let alone a sinner? I will certainly say that I am a sinner. I’m not sure why you would care one way or another if someone called you a sinner, if you don’t believe in sin.

I know all about it. I simply choose not to accept dogma and doctrine in place of self-discipline.

A, “knowing about” and “experiencing” are worlds apart.

Can you please explain what you mean about self-discipline?

 

[_A]

I think you’re getting closer to understanding, A. The kind of evidence you’re looking for is really restricting your openness to the possibilities of what can be considered evidence in matters of faith.

That’s right, there is NO evidence that there ever was a god. If he does exist, he has no effect on the world, except in the minds of those who imagine that they ‘know’ him.

See my above comments, A. When a person has faith, their eyes are opened in a new way, and the evidence is all around.

So again you are saying that I have to forget what is really going on in the world around me, and just ‘faith’. That will get me the evidence. Could you explain how one ‘faiths’?
By the way, if you mean ‘just believe’, I do not, and I can’t fake it.

The point of my mentioning that Christians believe in One True God was to try to explain why a Christian would hold that their God is also your God and Joe’s God. All the other gods are not truly gods in the sense of Creator and Redeemer.

Suggesting that your primitive, violent god is something that I worship is offensive.
Would it be offensive to you if I suggested that, since Zeus is the god of the gods, and I know this from ancient writings, your god is Zeus, not Jesus?
Don’t choose a god for me, I have no reason to think that you have chosen wisely (yet).

The God the Jews worship is the same God that Christians worship - the Jews are our ancestors.

I don’t know how else to put this, but you are wrong. The jews do NOT worship Jesus. You DO.
Their book is older, thus more ‘historic’. Why don’t you join them? If catholicism is so clearly right, why don’t they join you?

Yes, I certainly can respect your views. Can you please show me where I have ever labelled you anything,

Just above here, when you not only suggested that I do have a god, but that he was the god of the bible.

let alone a sinner? I will certainly say that I am a sinner. I’m not sure why you would care one way or another if someone called you a sinner, if you don’t believe in sin.

I think the notion that every human is born with something wrong that they have to pay back by worshiping an uncertain god is horrible.

Can you please explain what you mean about self-discipline?

I will try. I think that if you follow church doctrine, because you believe that a man in the sky is watching you, then you are not disciplining yourself. The threat of eternal punishment / reward is.
If you drop dogma and think through everything yourself, with only yourself to answer to, then that is selfdiscipline. I can’t imagine how it exists in anyone who truly believes.

 

[c659smith]

A

There is evidence there is a God.

If there is a painting is therre a painter?

If there is a building is there a builder?

We exist so there must be a creator.

Besides that we have a concience unlike any other creature.

Now I have proven there is a God and ask you prove there is not.

As an atheist I believe you have the weakest case.

 

[_A]

A

There is evidence there is a God.

None here. I will try to be as specific as I can be.

If there is a painting is therre a painter?
If there is a building is there a builder?

Taken literally, yes these first two statements make sense.

We exist so there must be a creator.

By applying this same rule to your creator, he must have had a creator, who must have had a creator, who must have had a creator, who must have had a creator…the problem is called ‘infinite regression’ and the way it is usually swept aside makes me wonder why people even start using a rational argument. Perhaps you have a better explanation.

Besides that we have a concience unlike any other creature.

The fact that you misspelled ‘conscience’ (and maybe I did, too…)reminds me that we have very different ideas about what the thing is that you are describing. If we take it by the root, we know that psychiatrists have documented many cases of persons who do not seem to have one. There are animals who seem to.

Now I have proven there is a God and ask you prove there is not.

I have shown that you are far from proving a god.

As an atheist I believe you have the weakest case.

This show quite a misunderstanding about ‘atheism’. I would like to clear it up.
Atheistic means not theistic - nothing more. I have views, but my views are not that of all atheists. The only thing that we all have in common is this disbelief in a personal god or gods. Picture it this way, you are all (I know it is a tiny gamble) atheistic toward Zeus. I am atheistic about all of the gods, instead of just some of them.
This means that I don’t have to disprove your god any more than you would have to disprove all of the gods which were ever invented.
If you want me to believe something about your god, I will give you a bit of a guide.
Mundane claims can be strengthened sufficiently with mundane evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

[c659smith]

A

Now let’s continue

Do you believe in the Big Bang theory?

For many Atheist are big in the area of science or philosphy.

Now in science we must have an action to cause a reaction. What do you suppose the action was?

Along the same terms it is phyically impossible as far as physics is concerned that this alleged big bang sending our universe outward in a 360 direction.

This can be shown through planets and stars having different rotation spins in the same quadrants left to right and right to left as they should all be going in the same direction.

Below is this not the definition or am I confused

ATHEISM
Atheism is a doctrine that states that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are “super” natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own.

 

[c659smith]

Now what I asked for is an argument on your side to prove that atheism make sense.

To answer your question on God is that He is the Great I Am.

Alwys was and always will be.

Now with that being said evidence through Human testimony states they have heard Him, seen His Love, and witnessed His judgenments.

Now evidence through Jesus God made Man shows through testimony and un-natural phenomena (miracles) unexplained through modern science have occurred in his name.

 

[_A]

A

Now let’s continue

Do you believe in the Big Bang theory?

No.

For many Atheist are big in the area of science or philosphy.

I don’t understand.

Now in science we must have an action to cause a reaction. What do you suppose the action was?

Are you finally admitting here that, according to your logic, your god must have a cause, and that cause must have a cause, and that cause must have a cause…

Along the same terms it is phyically impossible as far as physics is concerned that this alleged big bang sending our universe outward in a 360 direction.

This would be no problem for me since I don’t believe in that theory.

This can be shown through planets and stars having different rotation spins in the same quadrants left to right and right to left as they should all be going in the same direction.

Again, if I believed in that theory, it might be a problem for me.

Below is this not the definition or am I confused

You are confused. I will try to explain.

ATHEISM
Atheism is a doctrine that states that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter),

There are atheists who, while they don’t believe in a god, do believe in supernatural phenomena.

that thought is a property or function of matter,

I don’t see the relevance…

and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units.

It is possible that all atheists think so (though I have a nagging feeling that some buddist/atheists believe in reincarnation…). Even if it were true, this in not what defines an atheist. A lack of belief in a god or gods is all that we all have in common.

This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are “super” natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own.

You have made a lot of leaps which, while they may be popular positions among atheists, are not the defining quality.
I hope I have managed to explain myself well enough.