I am an atheist thread 3

[_A]

Correction: You have not found the evidence you are asking for. That proves nothing.

There is no evidence except what lives in the minds of the followers.

If I am in error here, don’t tell me, just offer the evidence you have which does not exist exclusively in peoples minds.

Same God. They just haven’t met His Son yet.

You worship just a regular guy then? It would seem to me a little careless to worship a man who changed your bible. How often does this happen?

I’m still puzzled as to why you even care about right and wrong, and how you define these terms.

Has someone tried to sell you the false idea that all morality originates from your false god? It is easy to see how wrong this is, when you look at the fact that any moral behaviours you define can be found in the godless.

I follow Church doctrine because I think it is full of wisdom and beauty and truth, and that it is inspired by the Holy Spirit. I do think through everything myself, and I do have self-discipline. Love for God and neighbor drives it.

So earlier I posted an article about a 12-year-old who got pregnant after being raped by her stepfather. Would you drive her to an abortion clinic and help her get in (if she was your daughter)? Would you stand by church doctrine even in this case where it is so clearly harmful?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

No.
However, if a large, diverse group of scientists attempt to prove an hypothesis false and fail over decades, then it is a pretty good bet that it is a very solid theory indeed.
When someone tries to prove their hypothesis correct, they are looking at it the wrong way. It is much easier, generally, to disprove an hypothesis.

Agreed.

Then i gather you would agree that there is no scientific evidence that the genetic code can be created apart from the aid of some intelligent being. For many decades, now, chemists and geneticists have been trying to create DNA in laboratories using the chemicals of which DNA is comprised and have failed.

Chemists and geneticists have little difficulty modifying existing DNA, but they have never been able to prove, through scientific experiment, that DNA itself can be created from the base chemicals Adenine, Cytosine, Guanine and Thymine.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I don’t see anything there that even looks as if it *might *be a prophecy…perhaps I am a bit thick this morning…had several friends over for a bottle of wine last night…

It might help to look at the words of the prophecy itself that the Ethiopian government official was reading, which is Isaiah, chapter 53:

1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

There are several remarkable predictions about the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, here, which i hope you will consider. Will you tell me what you think about these?

 

[phooney]

@Socrates4Jesus

Your post 200 seems to completely ignore my post 150

 

[_A]

Agreed.

Then i gather you would agree that there is no scientific evidence that the genetic code can be created apart from the aid of some intelligent being.

No. I would wonder why you leap to the ‘intelligent being’ answer just because something is difficult to understand.

There is no scientific evidence for your intelligent being, so inserting him into a scientific theory is, well, unscientific.

If you would care to give a robust and rigorous definition of this ‘intelligent being’, then perhaps it can be used in scientific theories.

 

[_A]

It might help to look at the words of the prophecy itself that the Ethiopian government official was reading, which is Isaiah, chapter 53:

1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

There are several remarkable predictions about the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, here, which i hope you will consider. Will you tell me what you think about these?

I think that there is no evidence that this man named Jesus Christ ever rose from the dead.

 

[c659smith]

A

So let me try to understand your train of thought.

You have no understanding or no beliefs in the scientific world of theories as it relates to how the universe, earth, or life began.

You have no belief in creationism as least as far as a supreme being is concerned.

You disagree with most philophers on this subject also.

Your idea of atheism is poof we are here one minute and gone the next.

As far as history is concerned you agree Jesus was born and began a movement based on love that upset the Jewish Priests and Romans that flogged Him and had Him Crucified.

You agree according to history He had many followers.

You state there is no proof of the resurrection even though hundreds state they had seen Him to include Roman Soldiers loyal to Cearsar.

You believe that the Original Apostles went to their death professing He had risen and had seen Him without gaining anything in stature or monetary value.

You know hundreds of thousands of Christians were crucified, tortured, and families destroyed by the Romans without offering any struggle and without any proof that Christ was Risen.

Your common sense thought process that the prophets described the crucification a thousand years before the Romans ever came up with the idea as it related to Jesus was a fluke.

That He would be born in Bethlehem, and there are at least without getting into the paticulars hundreds of prophecies were fullfilled on His coming, Life, and ressurection.

That what Jesus said had occurred before it came to be were completed to the letter.

There is recorded history of this and to deny the facts is one thing but to deny history is another.

So which is it that you are in denial with --the facts or history?

How do you explain the shroud of tourin as modern science cannot replicate it today.

How to you deny Fatima tens of thousands witnessed this?

How do you deny the Eucharist of Luchiano

Stigmatas

I understand maybe your belief in not believing but it is not on factual and historic evidence or facts.

But I am not trying to have you understand my beliefs now but how you and your thought process comes up atheism through the intellectual thought process

 

[c659smith]

Of course I would stand by the Church Doctrine on this case as the life in the womb is human and has not committed any crime. Would you execute the mother of a murderer because of what her son has done?

There is no evidence except what lives in the minds of the followers.

If I am in error here, don’t tell me, just offer the evidence you have which does not exist exclusively in peoples minds.
You worship just a regular guy then? It would seem to me a little careless to worship a man who changed your bible. How often does this happen?
Has someone tried to sell you the false idea that all morality originates from your false god? It is easy to see how wrong this is, when you look at the fact that any moral behaviours you define can be found in the godless.

So earlier I posted an article about a 12-year-old who got pregnant after being raped by her stepfather. Would you drive her to an abortion clinic and help her get in (if she was your daughter)? Would you stand by church doctrine even in this case where it is so clearly harmful?

 

[c659smith]

Where is the thought process on the sanctity of human life should be the question?

Is it ok to put to sleep (death) an adult becaud=se they at one point in their life rely fully on the help of others and is not now any use to society?

 

[_A]

Of course I would stand by the Church Doctrine

And here is the problem. It doesn’t matter what comes up, you are sure not to think for yourself on the tough questions.
If you are confident that church doctrine will always be the right answer, you can say that to your god when you meet him.

If it turns out that you are right, when I meet your god I will tell him that I did the best with the evidence I found.

 

[whatevergirl]

WG, I think it’s the Internet gremlins…

maybe!

 

[Pax]

A

Let’s hope the Lord agrees with your self assessment.

 

[c659smith]

And here is the problem. It doesn’t matter what comes up, you are sure not to think for yourself on the tough questions.
If you are confident that church doctrine will always be the right answer, you can say that to your god when you meet him.

If it turns out that you are right, when I meet your god I will tell him that I did the best with the evidence I found.

A

But you have asked many questions of many here on this Forum on how they come up to their thought process as it relates to their beliefs. Now I am asking you yours. Are you offended because of me asking you.

 

[_A]

You have no understanding or no beliefs in the scientific world…

Not quite true, I have some small understanding, and **no **belief.

You have no belief in creationism

I have no belief in creationism.

You disagree with most philophers

Since I have not read *most *philosophers, I will have to take your word on this.

Your idea of atheism is poof we are here one minute and gone the next.

More than a minute (I have had over 19 million of them already, and enjoyed the vast majority of them) I hope, but yes.

As far as history is concerned you agree Jesus was born and began a movement based on love that upset the Jewish Priests and Romans that flogged Him and had Him Crucified.

I don’t agree. I am not an historian.

You agree according to history He had many followers.

I think you are hoping for more of an historian than I.

You state there is no proof of the resurrection even though hundreds state they had seen Him to include Roman Soldiers loyal to Cearsar.

Thats right. Present what evidence you have, and we can look.

You believe that the Original Apostles went to their death professing He had risen and had seen Him without gaining anything in stature or monetary value.

I don’t find it hard at all to imagine that they believed that. I don’t doubt that you believe it. That has nothing to do with the facts of the matter, though.

You know hundreds of thousands of Christians were crucified, tortured, and families destroyed by the Romans without offering any struggle and without any proof that Christ was Risen.

This doesn’t seem to mean anything. So I obviously don’t know.

the prophets described the crucification a thousand years before the Romans ever came up with the idea as it related to Jesus was a fluke.

Nope, but if I wanted to set myself up as a messiah, I guess I would just have to look for an old prophecy that fit.

That He would be born in Bethlehem, and there are at least without getting into the paticulars hundreds of prophecies were fullfilled on His coming, Life, and ressurection.

I don’t believe.

That what Jesus said had occurred before it came to be were completed to the letter.

Still don’t know what you are saying here. Did Jesus make a prophecy? (hmmm…somewhere in Matthew…).“Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.”
Jesus says he will ‘be come’ before the fellas can “go over the cities of Israel.” If this had come to pass, it would be held up as a fulfilled prophecy. Now we know it is really just a mistake, such as a person (NOT a god) might make. His disciples went over the cities of Israel and then died waiting for the “return of the Lord.”

There is recorded history of this and to deny the facts is one thing but to deny history is another.

I do not deny history, I just have a more reasonable interpretation of it.

So which is it that you are in denial with --the facts or history?

What you have presented are neither facts nor history.

How do you explain the shroud of tourin as modern science cannot replicate it today.

I thought it was fairly well known that the supposed shroud of turin was a hoax from somewhere around the middle ages…

How to you deny Fatima tens of thousands witnessed this?

The same way the rest of the world has - if the sun wiggled around, there would be more folks noticing than a few thousand in one small area.

How do you deny the Eucharist of Luchiano

Don’t know what it is.

Stigmatas

Nonsense.

I understand maybe your belief in not believing but it is not on factual and historic evidence or facts.

It’s all in what you decide is a fact, I suppose. There is historic evidence that your good book is off on it’s date of creation by a few billion years or so. How do you choose which historical evidence to accept? It looks like you look for the bits that support your belief.

But I am not trying to have you understand my beliefs now but how you and your thought process comes up atheism through the intellectual thought process

I think it is my small knowledge of scientific method, and my willingness to ask ALL the questions I wish.

I would recommend that EVERYONE enjoy lots of questions.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I’m so sorry that you are an atheist. I cannot think of a sadder faith.

 

[c659smith]

A,

Historians conclude that Jesus was born around 6-4 BC As a Jewish peasant living in the tiny village of Nazareth, working with his father as a carpenter (Greek “tekton,” meaning stone or wood worker), and by the very nature of his teachings it is highly likely that his family was very poor.

So Jesus did exist.

as far as the shroud:

Starting in 2003, new evidence began to appear in secular, peer-reviewed, scientific journals that supported the Shroud of Turin’s authenticity. From these journals we learn that the outermost fibers of the cloth are coated with a layer of starch fractions and various saccharides. In places, the coating has turned into a caramel-like substance, thus forming the images. This suggests a chemical reaction took place. We learn, also, of a faint second image of the face on the backside of the cloth. The second face supports the idea of a chemical reaction and adds more proof that the image is not a work of art or a photograph. And in 2005, we learned that the carbon 14 dating was flawed. In fact we learned that the cloth could very well be 2000 years old

The Turin Shroud was examined with visible and ultraviolet spectrometry, infrared spectrometry, x-ray fluorescence spectrometry, thermography, pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry, laser*microprobe Raman analyses, and microchemical testing. No evidence for pigments (paint, dye or stains) or artist’s media was found anywhere on the Shroud of Turin.

The bloodstains

The bloodstains on the Shroud of Turin are composed of hemoglobin and give a positive test for serum albumin. Numerous tests confirm this.

 

[holdencaulfield]

A,

Historians conclude that Jesus was born around 6-4 BC As a Jewish peasant living in the tiny village of Nazareth, working with his father as a carpenter (Greek “tekton,” meaning stone or wood worker), and by the very nature of his teachings it is highly likely that his family was very poor.

So Jesus did exist.

as far as the shroud:

Starting in 2003, new evidence began to appear in secular, peer-reviewed, scientific journals that supported the Shroud of Turin’s authenticity. From these journals we learn that the outermost fibers of the cloth are coated with a layer of starch fractions and various saccharides. In places, the coating has turned into a caramel-like substance, thus forming the images. This suggests a chemical reaction took place. We learn, also, of a faint second image of the face on the backside of the cloth. The second face supports the idea of a chemical reaction and adds more proof that the image is not a work of art or a photograph. And in 2005, we learned that the carbon 14 dating was flawed. In fact we learned that the cloth could very well be 2000 years old

The Turin Shroud was examined with visible and ultraviolet spectrometry, infrared spectrometry, x-ray fluorescence spectrometry, thermography, pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry, laser*microprobe Raman analyses, and microchemical testing. No evidence for pigments (paint, dye or stains) or artist’s media was found anywhere on the Shroud of Turin.

The bloodstains

The bloodstains on the Shroud of Turin are composed of hemoglobin and give a positive test for serum albumin. Numerous tests confirm this.

 

[c659smith]

A

This is the Eucharistic Miracle

By the way it matches the blood type on the shroud. Note 8th century

Ancient Anxanum, the city of the Frentanese, has contained for over twelve centuries the first and greatest Eucharistic Miracle of the Catholic Church. This wondrous Event took place in the 8th century A.D. in the little Church of St. Legontian, as a divine response to a Basilian monk’s doubt about Jesus’ Real Presence in the Eucharist.

During Holy Mass, after the two-fold consecration, the host was changed into live Flesh and the wine was changed into live Blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size.

The Host-Flesh, as can be very distinctly observed today, has the same dimensions as the large host used today in the Latin church; it is light brown and appears rose-colored when lighted from the back.

The Blood is coagulated and has an earthy color resembling the yellow of ochre.

Various ecclesiastical investigation (“Recognitions”) were conducted since 1574.

In 1970-'71 and taken up again partly in 1981 there took place a scientific investigation by the most illustrious scientist Prof. Odoardo Linoli, eminent Professor in Anatomy and Pathological Histology and in Chemistry and Clinical Microscopy. He was assisted by Prof. Ruggero Bertelli of the University of Siena.

The analyses were conducted with absolute and unquestionable scientific precision and they were documented with a series of microscopic photographs.
These analyses sustained the following conclusions:

The Flesh is real Flesh. The Blood is real Blood.

The Flesh and the Blood belong to the human species.

The Flesh consists of the muscular tissue of the heart.

In the Flesh we see present in section: the myocardium, the endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for the large thickness of the myocardium.

The Flesh is a “HEART” complete in its essential structure.

The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood-type: AB (Blood-type identical to that which Prof. Baima Bollone uncovered in the Holy Shroud of Turin).

In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of the fresh normal blood.

In the Blood there were also found these minerals: chlorides, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium.

The preservation of the Flesh and of the Blood, which were left in their natural state for twelve centuries and exposed to the action of atmospheric and biological agents, remains an extraordinary phenomenon.

 

[c659smith]

A

The miracle at Fatima is reported to have started in in 1917, May 13th near Fatima, Portugal. Three children, 10 year old Lucia, and two of her cousins reported to seen a flash of lightning near an oak tree, and then a radiant figure among the leafs, who spoke to Lucia, and told her that she would identify herself to the children six months from the date, and told her to come back on the 13th of each month.

Word got around about this, and on october 13th the 70 thousand people you mentioned arrived at the field to wait for a miracle.

Then, as reports go, came what was named “the miracle of the sun”, where whitnesses say that the sun danced and bobbed int the sky. The radiant figure then passed a 3 part revelation to Lucia.

Two of the revelations were:

1. A glimpse of hell given to Lucia, and a promise that she and the children would go to heaven.
2. The predicition of end of world war one, and a warning of a greater war to come, and a warning that Russia would rice up to spread atheism and religious persecution across the world.

So 70,000 people are nuts?

 

[holdencaulfield]

A

The miracle at Fatima is reported to have started in in 1917, May 13th near Fatima, Portugal. Three children, 10 year old Lucia, and two of her cousins reported to seen a flash of lightning near an oak tree, and then a radiant figure among the leafs, who spoke to Lucia, and told her that she would identify herself to the children six months from the date, and told her to come back on the 13th of each month.

Word got around about this, and on october 13th the 70 thousand people you mentioned arrived at the field to wait for a miracle.

Then, as reports go, came what was named “the miracle of the sun”, where whitnesses say that the sun danced and bobbed int the sky. The radiant figure then passed a 3 part revelation to Lucia.

Two of the revelations were:

1. A glimpse of hell given to Lucia, and a promise that she and the children would go to heaven.
2. The predicition of end of world war one, and a warning of a greater war to come, and a warning that Russia would rice up to spread atheism and religious persecution across the world.

So 70,000 people are nuts?

Honestly I don’t know how people can argue with evidence like this but that is the atheist mind set. Doubt everything weather there is proof or not.