I am an atheist thread 3

[c659smith]

A,

Now I have explained the ressurection in a common sense manner and have explained or shown several miracles supporting the ressurection.

I have explained the the Apostles scared out of their wits had left Jesus to be flogged, ttried, and crucified alone while they fled and hid, Not to mention that one denied Jesus 3 times.

I have then asked what would bring men these men out of hiding?

According to them Jesus manifested appeared to them in the flesh after rising from the dead.

That these distinct and very different walks of life would all proclaim the same and would face horrible deaths on a possibility or hallucination?

I have shown just a few miracles that you today can see and have all the scientific evidence before you. The shroud of Tourin and the Miracle of the Eucharist.

Why it still be flesh and blood today and not dust is unexplained by science.

Now I am not asking you to believe but to tell me how you have come to the intelligent decision of atheism.

You have avoided the issue totally and now all ask on what facts or proofs do you have that there is no God. Because you just do not believe is a cop out and you know it.

 

[holdencaulfield]

A,

Now I have explained the ressurection in a common sense manner and have explained or shown several miracles supporting the ressurection.

I have explained the the Apostles scared out of their wits had left Jesus to be flogged, ttried, and crucified alone while they fled and hid, Not to mention that one denied Jesus 3 times.

I have then asked what would bring men these men out of hiding?

According to them Jesus manifested appeared to them in the flesh after rising from the dead.

That these distinct and very different walks of life would all proclaim the same and would face horrible deaths on a possibility or hallucination?

I have shown just a few miracles that you today can see and have all the scientific evidence before you. The shroud of Tourin and the Miracle of the Eucharist.

Why it still be flesh and blood today and not dust is unexplained by science.

Now I am not asking you to believe but to tell me how you have come to the intelligent decision of atheism.

You have avoided the issue totally and now all ask on what facts or proofs do you have that there is no God. Because you just do not believe is a cop out and you know it.

They honestly shouldn’t be able to have any response to that.

 

[Armor_of_God]

You worship just a regular guy then? It would seem to me a little careless to worship a man who changed your bible. How often does this happen?

Can you please explain what you mean, A? I’m not sure how the above reply ties in to what I had said.

Has someone tried to sell you the false idea that all morality originates from your false god? It is easy to see how wrong this is, when you look at the fact that any moral behaviours you define can be found in the godless.

I was genuinely wondering where you draw your concepts of right and wrong from. It wasn’t simply rhetorical musing on my part. I am interested, and I am looking for something more than just “The Golden Rule”.

 

[Armor_of_God]

So earlier I posted an article about a 12-year-old who got pregnant after being raped by her stepfather. Would you drive her to an abortion clinic and help her get in (if she was your daughter)? Would you stand by church doctrine even in this case where it is so clearly harmful?

If I were someone who had some control over things in this case, the first thing I would do is remove this 12 year old child from the situation at hand - meaning, take her away from the residence of the rapist or have the rapist legally restrained. The next thing I would do is pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance and forgiveness.

I would offer her love and compassion and protection, to the best of my ability.

I would not drive her to the abortion clinic, any more than I would strangle a three-year old because her parent raped someone. I don’t believe that killing someone for something their relative did is harmless.

 

[c659smith]

If I were someone who had some control over things in this case, the first thing I would do is remove this 12 year old child from the situation at hand - meaning, take her away from the residence of the rapist or have the rapist legally restrained. The next thing I would do is pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance and forgiveness.

I would offer her love and compassion and protection, to the best of my ability.

I would not drive her to the abortion clinic, any more than I would strangle a three-year old because her parent raped someone. I don’t believe that killing someone for something their relative did is harmless.

Armour of God,

I would suggest we stop answering A’s questions till he tells us what proof now he has through science, history, philophy, intellegent thinking there is no God and how he has come to that conclussion,(atheism)

We have shown him our proofs and testimony now it’s time for him to tell us his facts and see if they are sound.

I don’t mean to refute ours either but to tell us how he has come to his educational conclussions

He has been on this forum for a while now and has reaped much but has given little.

 

[_A]

A

Let’s hope the Lord agrees with your self assessment.

No need for hope, when I have made the best choice that I can.

 

[_A]

A

But you have asked many questions of many here on this Forum on how they come up to their thought process as it relates to their beliefs. Now I am asking you yours. Are you offended because of me asking you.

No, I answered you.

 

[_A]

I’m so sorry that you are an atheist. I cannot think of a sadder faith.

It’s not a ‘faith’. Just clear-thinking.

 

[_A]

A,

Historians conclude that Jesus was born around 6-4 BC As a Jewish peasant living in the tiny village of Nazareth, working with his father as a carpenter (Greek “tekton,” meaning stone or wood worker), and by the very nature of his teachings it is highly likely that his family was very poor.

So Jesus did exist.

as far as the shroud:

Starting in 2003, new evidence began to appear in secular, peer-reviewed, scientific journals that supported the Shroud of Turin’s authenticity. From these journals we learn that the outermost fibers of the cloth are coated with a layer of starch fractions and various saccharides. In places, the coating has turned into a caramel-like substance, thus forming the images. This suggests a chemical reaction took place. We learn, also, of a faint second image of the face on the backside of the cloth. The second face supports the idea of a chemical reaction and adds more proof that the image is not a work of art or a photograph. And in 2005, we learned that the carbon 14 dating was flawed. In fact we learned that the cloth could very well be 2000 years old

The Turin Shroud was examined with visible and ultraviolet spectrometry, infrared spectrometry, x-ray fluorescence spectrometry, thermography, pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry, laser*microprobe Raman analyses, and microchemical testing. No evidence for pigments (paint, dye or stains) or artist’s media was found anywhere on the Shroud of Turin.

The bloodstains

The bloodstains on the Shroud of Turin are composed of hemoglobin and give a positive test for serum albumin. Numerous tests confirm this.

If this is all it takes to convince you that a god exists, would it’s being proved false convince you that there is no god, or would you just find some other ‘evidence’?

 

[_A]

A

This is the Eucharistic Miracle

By the way it matches the blood type on the shroud. Note 8th century

Ancient Anxanum, the city of the Frentanese, has contained for over twelve centuries the first and greatest Eucharistic Miracle of the Catholic Church. This wondrous Event took place in the 8th century A.D. in the little Church of St. Legontian, as a divine response to a Basilian monk’s doubt about Jesus’ Real Presence in the Eucharist.

During Holy Mass, after the two-fold consecration, the host was changed into live Flesh and the wine was changed into live Blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size.

The Host-Flesh, as can be very distinctly observed today, has the same dimensions as the large host used today in the Latin church; it is light brown and appears rose-colored when lighted from the back.

The Blood is coagulated and has an earthy color resembling the yellow of ochre.

Various ecclesiastical investigation (“Recognitions”) were conducted since 1574.

In 1970-'71 and taken up again partly in 1981 there took place a scientific investigation by the most illustrious scientist Prof. Odoardo Linoli, eminent Professor in Anatomy and Pathological Histology and in Chemistry and Clinical Microscopy. He was assisted by Prof. Ruggero Bertelli of the University of Siena.

The analyses were conducted with absolute and unquestionable scientific precision and they were documented with a series of microscopic photographs.
These analyses sustained the following conclusions:

The Flesh is real Flesh. The Blood is real Blood.

The Flesh and the Blood belong to the human species.

The Flesh consists of the muscular tissue of the heart.

In the Flesh we see present in section: the myocardium, the endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for the large thickness of the myocardium.

The Flesh is a “HEART” complete in its essential structure.

The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood-type: AB (Blood-type identical to that which Prof. Baima Bollone uncovered in the Holy Shroud of Turin).

In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of the fresh normal blood.

In the Blood there were also found these minerals: chlorides, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium.

The preservation of the Flesh and of the Blood, which were left in their natural state for twelve centuries and exposed to the action of atmospheric and biological agents, remains an extraordinary phenomenon.

The church seems to love morbid icons. I am not surprised that some priest have used actual flesh in the ritual. Catholics have been eating what they believe is human flesh for centuries.

 

[_A]

A

The miracle at Fatima is reported to have started in in 1917, May 13th near Fatima, Portugal. Three children, 10 year old Lucia, and two of her cousins reported to seen a flash of lightning near an oak tree, and then a radiant figure among the leafs, who spoke to Lucia, and told her that she would identify herself to the children six months from the date, and told her to come back on the 13th of each month.

Word got around about this, and on october 13th the 70 thousand people you mentioned arrived at the field to wait for a miracle.

Then, as reports go, came what was named “the miracle of the sun”, where whitnesses say that the sun danced and bobbed int the sky. The radiant figure then passed a 3 part revelation to Lucia.

Two of the revelations were:

1. A glimpse of hell given to Lucia, and a promise that she and the children would go to heaven.
2. The predicition of end of world war one, and a warning of a greater war to come, and a warning that Russia would rice up to spread atheism and religious persecution across the world.

So 70,000 people are nuts?

A much larger number than that are! Think about how many people actually believe that the sun bobbed around, and that a loving god would create a hell to torture it’s creations.
Going back to the sun, why was it only noticed in Fatima? Was your god not able to spread the hallucination wider?

 

[_A]

A,

Now I have explained the ressurection in a common sense manner and have explained or shown several miracles supporting the ressurection.

I have explained the the Apostles scared out of their wits had left Jesus to be flogged, ttried, and crucified alone while they fled and hid, Not to mention that one denied Jesus 3 times.

I have then asked what would bring men these men out of hiding?

According to them Jesus manifested appeared to them in the flesh after rising from the dead.

That these distinct and very different walks of life would all proclaim the same and would face horrible deaths on a possibility or hallucination?

I have shown just a few miracles that you today can see and have all the scientific evidence before you. The shroud of Tourin and the Miracle of the Eucharist.

Why it still be flesh and blood today and not dust is unexplained by science.

Now I am not asking you to believe but to tell me how you have come to the intelligent decision of atheism.

You have avoided the issue totally and now all ask on what facts or proofs do you have that there is no God. Because you just do not believe is a cop out and you know it.

You have offered a few stories, even used the phrase ‘peer-reviewed scientific journal’. You have not cited any evidence. Stories are not evidence.

 

[_A]

Can you please explain what you mean, A? I’m not sure how the above reply ties in to what I had said.

I was genuinely wondering where you draw your concepts of right and wrong from. It wasn’t simply rhetorical musing on my part. I am interested, and I am looking for something more than just “The Golden Rule”.

Of course there is what was taught by my family, but it can all be boiled down to evolving as a social creature.
As to your ‘regular guy’, I mean the Jesus guy you choose to worship. The Hebrew folk know you are worshipping a false god, so why don’t you change, and become a Jew? If you are right, how come they don’t become Catholic?

The answer is that the truth to you is not the truth to them.

If you stop looking for ‘Truth’ and start looking for facts, you may see things more clearly.

 

[_A]

If I were someone who had some control over things in this case, the first thing I would do is remove this 12 year old child from the situation at hand - meaning, take her away from the residence of the rapist or have the rapist legally restrained. The next thing I would do is pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance and forgiveness.

I would offer her love and compassion and protection, to the best of my ability.

I would not drive her to the abortion clinic, any more than I would strangle a three-year old because her parent raped someone. I don’t believe that killing someone for something their relative did is harmless.

So you couldn’t decide anything against what the bible says. What if she was going to have her life (and very possibly her health) ruined? Does that matter? What if she doesn’t want to make a baby?

I don’t want to get into another discussion about abortion, so I will leave this here, but you have a mind so that YOU can make decisions. I hope you don’t look to a very old book for answers to very new problems.

That kind of thinking leads to opposing stem cell research. Horrible.

 

[_A]

Armour of God,

I would suggest we stop answering A’s questions till he tells us what proof now he has through science, history, philophy, intellegent thinking there is no God and how he has come to that conclussion,(atheism)

We have shown him our proofs and testimony now it’s time for him to tell us his facts and see if they are sound.

I don’t mean to refute ours either but to tell us how he has come to his educational conclussions

He has been on this forum for a while now and has reaped much but has given little.

Well how very *Christian * of you.

OK, I will tell you. I have been full of questions for my whole life. Religion offers poor answers to the toughest questions, and if you simply stop assuming that there is a god, the world makes MUCH more sense.
The notion that one or another church has figured out what gods are correct and what they want of us is ludicrous. There are too many conflicting stories going around to put much stock into any of them.
It would be nice to think that there is an eternal afterlife where (hey, what happens in heaven anyway? Do you really play harps all day? That would get boring fast…what really is promised there??) we live forever and there is no pain, but that doesn’t mean it is true, just that it is desirable. Many wish for it, but there is no evidence for it, and much against it.

May I ask you if your god heals the sick? Does he love all?

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

A, I’ve noticed an odd trend in your posts. You claim that there is no evidence for something. Then someone presents some. Then you either ignore it, or dismiss it with a casual comment like “I am no historian”.

You have not provided any refutation for:

1. Christ was a real person
2. Christ was a moral teacher
3. The Shroud. Despite your unsubstantiated claim that this is “a well known forgery”, this has not been established. The best that skeptics could possibly do is to demonstrate that medieval methods could create such a thing. This is not the same as proving that medieval methods did create it.
4. The miracle of Lanciano. Even if the priest decided to prestidigitate a precise cross-section of a human heart for the host, how was it preserved? Spontaneous mummification? That priest sure got lucky!
5. Fatima. Just because you think God should have done it differently doesn’t do a thing to disprove it.

I’ll add one more to the list:
6. The Tilma of Guadalupe

All of these things are evidence. The fact that you don’t like them doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Are they proof? No. But you’re not asking for proof, you’re asking for evidence. It has been provided. I’d like to see a court throw out 70,000 eyewitness reports, on the grounds that they disagree with the court’s preconceptions.

You’re also still throwing around the hell objection, which I thought we settled on the previous thread.

I’m beginning to wonder if you’re being honest in your inquiry.

 

[holdencaulfield]

If I were someone who had some control over things in this case, the first thing I would do is remove this 12 year old child from the situation at hand - meaning, take her away from the residence of the rapist or have the rapist legally restrained. The next thing I would do is pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance and forgiveness.

I would offer her love and compassion and protection, to the best of my ability.

I would not drive her to the abortion clinic, any more than I would strangle a three-year old because her parent raped someone. I don’t believe that killing someone for something their relative did is harmless.

I agree it’s a really sad situation, but does two wrongs make a right. If there was a medical problem on the other hand then I think that may justify abortion.

 

[D_M]

God cannot be known through the senses but only by faith. And he cannot be known by any means or name other than His Son.

If a person saw a miracle but did not have faith they would not have seen evidence, only a phenomena. An atheist could have watched Moses part the red sea and not have seen evidence if he did not have faith, because all he would have seen was a man lift his rod and the waters part; a phenomena, not scientifically explained, but nevertheless without faith it remains a phenomena and not necessarily related to any kind of God than it would to any other explanation (magic, coincidence, the unexplained, etc.)

I like to remember the story about the beginning of the 30 years war in the Holy Roman Empire, when the two representatives of the catholic emperor were thrown out of the third story window by dissident protestant czech nobles. The protestants reported seeing the men fall and survive, claiming that by chance they landed in a pile of manure. The catholics who watched the same events claimed to have been able to see an angel who came down and prevented their deaths. God can only be known through faith in Him and by no other means.

Can person believe in God and not possess an idea of God? A strange question although I’ll put a thought forward:

• suppose someone, living at the time of Jesus had seen him in the flesh and said that ’ do believe with all my being in this man, who I believe orders all the universe around him through means of this Father figure he refers to, nevertheless there is no God!’

This person does in fact believe in God as he is revealed, but has rejected an idea of him.

Could we look at Christ existentially? That is to say: God’s existence precedes any idea of God?

God will exist wether or not we think He does, and regardless of who we think He is, and this is an existential fact which any person living in this universe will inevitably encounter even if they chose to reject it.

 

[c659smith]

Well how very *Christian * of you.

OK, I will tell you. I have been full of questions for my whole life. Religion offers poor answers to the toughest questions, and if you simply stop assuming that there is a god, the world makes MUCH more sense.
The notion that one or another church has figured out what gods are correct and what they want of us is ludicrous. There are too many conflicting stories going around to put much stock into any of them.
It would be nice to think that there is an eternal afterlife where (hey, what happens in heaven anyway? Do you really play harps all day? That would get boring fast…what really is promised there??) we live forever and there is no pain, but that doesn’t mean it is true, just that it is desirable. Many wish for it, but there is no evidence for it, and much against it.

May I ask you if your god heals the sick? Does he love all?

God does heal the sick and eye witness accounts of miracles even today going back to Christ’s time.
God does love all but not all love Him. God does not force His love upon anyone but leaves us free will to choose Him or dismiss Him.

 

[c659smith]

So you couldn’t decide anything against what the bible says. What if she was going to have her life (and very possibly her health) ruined? Does that matter? What if she doesn’t want to make a baby?

I don’t want to get into another discussion about abortion, so I will leave this here, but you have a mind so that YOU can make decisions. I hope you don’t look to a very old book for answers to very new problems.

That kind of thinking leads to opposing stem cell research. Horrible.

To answer your question is that if it is a life for a life that would be up to the Mother.

As far as incest or rape etc… which account for less than 1 % of the abortions.

Well first you must believe in science that this is a life

Well second you must belive in science that this life is human

2nd you must believe in our Bill of Rights.

The right of life,liberty, and the persuit of happiness

You must believe in our Goverment that Congress legislates and the judges define the laws that have been legislated by the congress

That the Supreme Court did violate this by legislating from the bench to make right to life no longer a part of our constitution and bill of rights.

A law was created by the courts and not congress which is called legislating from the bench.

Maybe the President of the United States could convict someone and preside over a court of law.

Or maybe congress could become the Commander and Chief of the Armed Forces…

As far as the child in these criminal cases of course the perpetrator of such should be arrested and tried. However the baby in the womb did nothing wrong to result in a death sentence.

This realm of thinking lends itself to the thought process of His son committed murder so let’s execute the father or mother.