I am an atheist thread 3

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@DM

"Can anyone prove the existence of logic?

You can neither see it, nor hear it, nor taste it, nor smell it, yet for some reason people continue to assert that it exists.

Strange superstition one might think."

Logic is proved through retortion. You can’t disprove logic without using logic, thus contradicting your own argument. Nice red herring.
 
@Don Hepler

hahaha! You can perform on the street next to my local scientologists any day!
 
Can you (name removed by moderator)ut all that lead up to that…a few passages before…the Bible isn’t just a bunch of random sentences…but, there are passages, leading up to more significant points. I’d like to see that, although, I guess I could read my own Bible…but, for the sake of discussion, could you post it here?
I don’t want to type out more of the bible (I don’t have one here, at any rate). I think someone here should be able to help.🙂
 
Well, here’s the entire tenth chapter of Matthew:
1 And having called his twelve disciples together, he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities. 2 And the names of the twelve Apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, 3 James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, 4 Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent: commanding them, saying: Go ye not into the way of the Gentiles, and into the city of the Samaritans enter ye not. 6 But go ye rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And going, preach, saying: The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils: freely have you received, freely give. 9 Do not possess gold, nor silver, nor money in your purses: 10 Nor scrip for your journey, nor two coats, nor shoes, nor a staff; for the workman is worthy of his meat. 11 And into whatsoever city or town you shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and there abide till you go thence. 12 And when you come into the house, salute it, saying: Peace be to this house. 13 And if that house be worthy, your peace shall come upon it; but if it be not worthy, your peace shall return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Amen I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
16 Behold I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be ye therefore wise as serpents and simple as doves. Simple… That is, harmless, plain, sincere, and without guile. 17 But beware of men. For they will deliver you up in councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues. 18 And you shall be brought before governors, and before kings for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles: 19 But when they shall deliver you up, take no thought how or what to speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what to speak: 20 For it is not you that speak, but the spirit of your Father that speaketh in you. 21 The brother also shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the son; and the children shall rise up against their parents, and shall put them to death. 22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.
23 And when they shall persecute you in this city, flee into another. Amen I say to you, you shall not finish all the cities of Israel, till the Son of man come. 24 The disciple is not above the master, nor the servant above his lord. 25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the good man of the house Beelzebub, how much more them of his household? 26 Therefore fear them not. For nothing is covered that shall not be revealed: nor hid, that shall not be known. 27 That which I tell you in the dark, speak ye in the light: and that which you hear in the ear, preach ye upon the housetops. 28 And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear not therefore: better are you than many sparrows. 32 Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven. 33 But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven. 34 Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. 35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man’s enemies shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for me, shall find it. 40 He that receiveth you, receiveth me: and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me. 41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive the reward of a prophet: and he that receiveth a just man in the name of a just man, shall receive the reward of a just man. 42 And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you he shall not lose his reward.
 
Thank you for posting that!!👍
Note the word ‘not’…they would not be finished in the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes…they were not finished…what prophecy was not fulfilled?

Mark 14:62

“I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

…does not say anything about when.:confused:
 
Reason does not affirm any such thing. I understand that it is hard to admit even doubt about the god story you are told. One of the main reasons is that there is a threat of some sort of punishment if you don’t believe.
I do not believe in reason. I do use it, because it provides better answers than prayer.Here is a big problem. I don’t even know how to define reason. It is quite likely that we two would have two different views of it.
If we could make some good rules about it, maybe we could apply it to your god hypothesis.
Is there something that you would accept as a trait of your god, and if it were disproved, reassess your beliefs?
Logic is quite different from reason. Logic is a mathematical discipline, and can be applied as such. Can you make some statements about god which can be quantified and analyzed with such a tool. I barely know how to make a truth-table myself, but if you can come up with some clear statements, we can likely test them.
Got any falsifiable claims about your god that we can examine?
Reason does affirm such a thing. And as a matter of fact it is very easy to doubt the ‘God story’ that one is told… many do in fact, and that would be where faith comes in. I suspect you are not as familiar with religion as you might assume.

The main reason I don’t doubt is because I know that it’s true. There is a punishment if I should turn away, as you say, although its also true that God really does exist wether or not one believed.

You say you do not believe in reason but you use it. I think you missed my point. To use it would affirm that you believed in its existence, which would imply that you did believe in it, in the manner to which I was referring. The question would then be: why do you believe it exists? (since you cannot know it exists through any of your senses and it would appear to fail, as you have now recognized, by the very test that you put forward to state that ‘the God hypothesis’ must fail, ie. it is different person to person)

You still have not answered that.

I do not believe there could be a falsifiable or testable thing with relation to God because if there were, He would not exist, and He does! therefore the point is mute.
 
I think I did, though a little late. If I have missed some, please ask again.
So your loving god makes some souls just so they can go to hell. Sounds like a swell guy.If he didn’t create all this evil, who did? Was it your gods’ god who did it? Is that why he can’t seem to get rid of it, though he tried (and apologized for his failure) in the great flood, and tried again when he arranged to have himself tortured on the cross?
He has control over all the evil being done, or he is not omnipotent. Which is it?
My apologies I said that too soon.

My loving God does not make any soul go to hell. I said that He knows who will go to hell. They make themselves go to hell by their own actions of their own free will. They could have chosen differently.

God does not have a God. Evil was created by sin. We did that, not Him.

You seem to be repeating David Hume’s famous ‘problem of evil’ in case you were not aware. That is, if God is all-powerful, all-knowing and all good, ‘whence then is evil?’

He is all-powerful, all-knowing and all good. And evil still exists because he tolerates its existance. We chose evil and he lets us have it, it is not the case that he intends it for us, but it is the case that he allows us to have evil. He has given us the tree of life (His Son) so that we become freed from it if we so chose, if we do not chose we will remain with it, and if we never chose we will remain with it forever and ever (ie. hell).

He does indeed have the power to take away our free will and make it such that we cannot commit evil, but as I said, he did not love the humanity which did not possess free will but the one that does.

Did that come anwhere to answering your question??
 
Thank you for posting that!!👍
Note the word ‘not’…they would not be finished in the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes…they were not finished…what prophecy was not fulfilled?

Mark 14:62

“I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

…does not say anything about when.:confused:
I guess I looked at a different version of the bible, but no matter. The point I was making was that there are many things which could be interpreted as failed prophecies, but the few which can appear fulfilled are ‘miracles’ . What of the failed ones?
 
You say you do not believe in reason but you use it. I think you missed my point. To use it would affirm that you believed in its existence, which would imply that you did believe in it, in the manner to which I was referring. The question would then be: why do you believe it exists? (since you cannot know it exists through any of your senses and it would appear to fail, as you have now recognized, by the very test that you put forward to state that ‘the God hypothesis’ must fail, ie. it is different person to person)

You still have not answered that.
I think you are asking if I believe that reason exists. I have pointed out that we may have different definitions for it. With that allowed for, I accept the existence of the entire world as my senses bring it to me, for the most part.
My senses agree with the reported observations of those around me. That helps, too.
I do not believe there could be a falsifiable or testable thing with relation to God because if there were, He would not exist, and He does! therefore the point is mute.
That doesn’t make sense to me, to be honest.
 
My apologies I said that too soon.

My loving God does not make any soul go to hell. I said that He knows who will go to hell. They make themselves go to hell by their own actions of their own free will. They could have chosen differently.
If someone goes to hell, it must have been your gods intent that they go to hell. He created only to torture in that case.
God does not have a God. Evil was created by sin. We did that, not Him.
Just as he planned.
You seem to be repeating David Hume’s famous ‘problem of evil’ in case you were not aware. That is, if God is all-powerful, all-knowing and all good, ‘whence then is evil?’
I didn’t know where it originated, but know the quote you mention.
He is all-powerful, all-knowing and all good. And evil still exists because he tolerates its existance. We chose evil and he lets us have it, it is not the case that he intends it for us, but it is the case that he allows us to have evil. He has given us the tree of life (His Son) so that we become freed from it if we so chose, if we do not chose we will remain with it, and if we never chose we will remain with it forever and ever (ie. hell).
Matthew 13:41-42
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth
Lovely.
He does indeed have the power to take away our free will and make it such that we cannot commit evil, but as I said, he did not love the humanity which did not possess free will but the one that does.

Did that come anwhere to answering your question??
Furnace of fire? Gnashing of teeth? I am pleased that you have chosen to ignore the more awful parts of the bible, but now you are trying to say that hell is just absence of god. I think you and this author Matthew have a difference of theological opinion.
 
continued @ c659smith

That just because a person doesn’t believe in something, they don’t have to believe in it’s opposite.

This makes no sense if you don’t believ in something than you have an oposing view

and A

If we reject the claims of the Bible for itself, then we are beset with an imposing set of difficulties arising from the interpenetration of Biblical history with secular history, both in the past and in the present. History does not take place in a vacuum.

The problem you have then is that all or most of history is erased as the bible as an historical document being

In a court of law, the purpose of the cross-examination of a witness is to determine, among other things, whether his testimony is consistent with itself, and whether it is consistent with the circumstances concurrent with the events about which he or she is testifying. A false witness will not knowingly provide any information that might be open to contradiction. When he testifies, he will attempt to express himself in very general terms, with as few specifics as possible. Cross-examination forces a witness to be specific, and if the witness is not telling the truth, the necessity of supplying specific details often results in contradictions which expose his testimony as false. The Bible freely supplies details of every kind, whether or not they are central to the topic under discussion. Such details are supplied in abundance, a strong indication of the trustworthiness of the testimony of the Biblical writers.
There are many passing references to names, places and events in the New Testament made by various classical writers, many of whom were pagans, Jews, infidels, or Greeks who had no interest in maintaining the credibility of the Christian faith. Among them were Josephus, Philo, Cicero, Tacitus, Ulpian, Hermogenian, Marcian, Celsus, Petronius, Dio, and Suetonius. These writers referred to many of the same people to whom the New Testament refers, and many of the same facts about them are mentioned in both places. If the Bible had been legendary, all statements made, even with casual references to accidents of circumstance, would nevertheless have had to agree with an entire spectrum of first-century sources bearing upon Palestine, with all of its intricacies of geography, politics, government, culture, and religion, a monumental task at best.

The Gibeonites had surrendered to Joshua knowing that they lived in the territory that he would have to conquer next in order to gain control over Palestine. Its strategic importance lay in its position as the major approach to Jerusalem, and is underscored by the fact that in the six-day war of 1966, when the Central Benjamin Plateau was taken, it was announced that Israel had taken the West Bank, although most of the West Bank had not yet actually been taken. It was recognized on all hands, however, that what remained was a mere matter of mop-up operations once the Central Benjamin Plateau was in Israeli hands. In just the same way, when the Gibeonites formed an alliance with Joshua, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Hebron, Jarmuth, Lachish, and Eglon would have known immediately that they were very seriously threatened. The sneak attack of the kings of these cities with their armies against the Gibeonites would have been the logical consequence of such an alliance. After the defeat of these kings, their retreat along the road from Beth-Horon to Azekah would have been their only live option. It is at this point that the sun stood still upon Gibeon and the moon in the Aijalon valley, enabling Joshua and his men to pursue them. On March 19, 1985, a leading present-day historical geographer of Palestine, James M. Monson, said with respect to the geographical factors of this narrative in Joshua that, “this is a very, very precise description, and it’s not something sort of manufactured. And today people are saying, ‘but Joshua really didn’t exist.’ . . .But the geographic factors are correct, you know, because they are so exact. We cannot deny those. So I think it’s rather hard to have some guy making up a story . . . . It takes more faith for me to believe some guy fabricated this and it all fits nicely than to say that this really happened.” The Biblical stories are precise in all of their details, and it is very exciting to see how well they fit into their geographical context.

This is why the questions of Grant.s tomb and Lincoln,s assaination for one must discount these have occurred for A’s response for evidence or fact is that he was not therre,did not feel it or touch it so it cannot be true. Well same with Lincoln and Grant or any history prior the 19th century.
 
Jesus also said that he would be back before the apostles died. That prophecy isn’t bragged about because it did not come true.
He said some standing with him would not taste of death until they saw him in his kingdom.

Revelation 20:14-2015 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Judas was standing with him when he said that.
That is just it, if you have enough people making prophecies, surely some of them are going to look true…
Restoration of such an Israel so that a person could be living to see that happen within the projected timeframe of 2000 years since Jesus left, about AD 30, is pretty good evidence though.
 
Matthew (10:23)
“Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.”

They died waiting for him. So that one is not a prophecy. I imaging someone will just pick another passage and say THAT was the real prophecy.
Not really that but you can’t cherrypick, you have to take them all together.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Heck, Native Americans didn’t even know of Jesus until a few hundred years ago. Now the time is coming to a close where the whole world has at least some idea of what Jesus is all about, especially with the Internet.

You can take this one along with the one about Israel.
 
That is vague enough that many deaths could fit that prophecy.
But he was pierced for our transgressions …
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

(Isaiah 53:5)

When i think about it, my friend A, had Jesus been born just 70 years earlier, you or i would have never heard of him. If he had been born a mere 70 years later, you would have never heard of him.

Isaiah 53 describes death by crucifixion. The form of execution when the Maccabees were in power in ancient Palestine was stoning (pelting a person with rocks until he expired). Crucifixion was introduced to ancient Palestine by the Roman conquerors, who brought an end to the rule of the Jewish Maccabees. By A.D. 70, the Roman general Titus sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Jewish temple, so the Jewish elite who earlier sought to have the Romans put Jesus to death were no longer in power.

That leaves less than a 150-year window in which the Jewish Messiah could have been crucified.
 
Thank you, I hope that if I forget someone’s question, they will remember this, and just give me another chance.
If they do, I think it will be.
I don’t believe it. I think it is more likely than inventing a supreme being, that’s all.
Nope.

🤷
A:

If you pause for a moment to stop and smell this idea, it might give you pause. Please think about it:

If you cannot account for the creation of DNA on scientific grounds, and you refuse to account for the creation of DNA on religious grounds, then on what grounds do you account for the creation of DNA? I do not think it is an unreasonable question to ask.

🤷
 
Thank you, I hope that if I forget someone’s question, they will remember this, and just give me another chance. …
That is my hope as well. Your patience might be putting the virtue of the less patient to shame!

😃

Keep on truckin’! 👍
 
… And here is the post that you seemed to ignore:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3205559&postcount=150

The synthesis of ‘life’ is something that can be systematically tested. All the possible combinations and permutations of early earth conditions and chemicals are far FAR from being exausted as far as testing is concerned. And again, until something else testable comes along, it is still a perfectly good hypothesis that builds on what we already know.
Yes, sorry for that one. I lost track of the post and could not find it. It’s more a lack of available time than an lack of interest, as i’m eager to hear what you have to say.

In response to your objection, my friend Phooney, i’d ask you the same questions i asked Mr. A:
  • Should a scientist accept a hypothesis as true without any scientific evidence to support it?
  • If after years of careful and thorough scientific experiment the results of such in no way support a hypothesis, should a scientist reject it as false on scientific grounds?
  • Is it true that many years of scientific experimentation by chemists and geneticists have failed to successfully create any functioning DNA?
  • If you answer yes to all three questions, then on what grounds do you believe that inanimate chemicals can combine to create the DNA of animate life forms without the aid of some intelligent being?
    🤷
 
@Socrates4Jesus
… I suspect that the beginning of life might be equally difficult to quantify. When do we decide it is ‘life’? Is it as simple as a self catalising, and hence self-replicating, molecule? There are numerous examples of such molecules, and they are not neccesarily ridiculously complex. However, once there IS a self replicating molecule, selection pressures can come into effect if the replication is good, but not perfect. This is all that is required to get things going, and this comes before “genetic code”, so in a word “yes” A’s selection pressures can explain genetic code in the form of DNA, but is it a living organism yet?

Is it after the self catalysing molecule has been surrounded by molecules that are attracted to water on one side and repelled by it on another, effectively forming a wall around it, thus creating the first distinction between inside and outside, the first ‘me’ and ‘you’ or from a chemical perspective ‘us’ and ‘them’. This was a simple cell, which was an environment that allowed the self-replicating molecules to replicate better than other molecules floating around free in the ocean. Many kinds of molecules form spherical shapes in water, but is it a living organism yet?

This is still pre-DNA, with much simpler replicators, probably RNA. But the ball is already rolling.

Do you require the cells to be Eukaryotic (have the genetic material walled off from the rest of the cell in another internal compartment) to consider it a living organism? Do you require that the cells harness bacteria in the form of mitochondria or chloroplasts and incorporate their chemical reactions for the benefit of the cell before you consider it life? Do you consider a virus to be alive?

Darwin’s THEORY (not hypothesis, let’s not cheapen the discussion by such wordplay, please) of Evolution by Natural selection can cope just fine from here, but has nothing to say about how the first ‘life’ arose.
… What do you think DNA is? What do you think the letters A, C, G and T stand for? They aren’t a language unto themselves, they are the first letters of particular molecules Adenine, Cytosine, Guanine, and Thymine. In a ridiculously extreme nutshell, having these monomers in different orders catalyses different chemical reactions, which accounts for how our bodies end up being built, and at least some portion of our behaviour, which in turn dictates on average how much we end up mating and replicating again.

I too have merely scratched the surface, but I am always reading more, it is a fascinating process regardless of whether God exists, but there is no need to put a God in the gaps in understanding here either.
To respond to this post that i missed, i’d ask the same questions as in my previous post, Phooney. In answer to your objections, i do not believe you or i of A need to bite off more than we can chew: We do not need to consider exactly what is a living organism. We do not need to explore the idea of whether genetic mutation of existing DNA created new species from existing ones. We only need to ask ourselves if DNA itself can be created without the aid of any intelligent “programmer”.

Regarding the fact that DNA is made up of four chemicals, a chemist or geneticist might respond that it is actually made up of 64 codons, which are three sequential nucleotides in DNA. One codon specifies (or codes for) a single amino acid – the building block of proteins. There are as many codons in a gene as there are amino acids in the protein made from that gene. So, the genetic code is far more complex than binary code, which uses 2 numbers instead of 64 codons.

Regarding the objection that chemicals are not numbers, and so the genetic code cannot be compared to binary code or other codes, i’d respond that Morse Code is not made up of numbers, but comparatively brief and long tones or flashes of light, yet it is still a code created by intelligent beings to transmit data. Code is code. Whether it uses sound, light, chemicals or marbles to transmit data does not matter. If it is arranged in a way that shows intelligent design, then this is strong evidence that it is the creation of an intelligent programmer. See what i mean?

Of course, all this is not inconsequential if you answer yes to the first three questions in my previous post.
 
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