I am an atheist thread 3

[dessert]

I am an atheist because there are no gods convincing enough to believe.

Well I am not a god, but I will give it a go!

Do you believe that evil exists? Do you have proof?

Which god convinced you of this if you believe that evil exists?

Is evil from the one God or from the one Satan?

“May you live as long as you want and may you never want as long as you live.” Old Irish Toast

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Well I am not a god, but I will give it a go!

Do you believe that evil exists? Do you have proof?

Which god convinced you of this if you believe that evil exists?

Is evil from the one God or from the one Satan?

“May you live as long as you want and may you never want as long as you live.” Old Irish Toast

Babs, I think that’s “cradle” in your sig, not:
“Barbara: cradel Catholic (back in '06))”

In other matters,

…to the atheist evil is not evil but only “discomfort to me in some way”. This is easy to “prove”, as he can easily show you his being “uncomfortable”.

He’d say that no “god” convinced him that his discomfort exists, as all he needs to be “convinced” that he can experience discomfort is HIMSELF (whereupon we would say that he’s set himself up as his own “god”).

He’d say that since there is no “one god” but only a plethora of “relative gods”, each being some anthropomorphized aspect of some human perception of nature (human nature being simply one of nature’s “nature’s”), and that this “satan” thing that you refer to is just some personification of “that which makes me uncomfortable” where there are as many “satans” as their are people. Therefore, “evil” is from BOTH the gods and from the satans, all of which are the imaginations of the deluded who find the “opiate of the masses” to be their “good”, which is his “evil”.

So evil, to him, is from the god of “delusion” which would have us believe evil is real.

Other than making that last “real” an “unreal”, we actually agree with that.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

In spite of the increasing ugliness in this thread, it has been sometimes interesting. I’m especially interested in the “evidence for God” idea. A has asked for evidence to prove God. He never answered my question about what sort of evidence would convince him, though. lkddav says that a prayer-induced terraforming of the moon would convince him.

There’s a notorious wrinkle here, even if you leave the supernatural out altogether. Everything we learn about quantum mechanics tells us that our apparently deterministic universe really isn’t. Determinism at the macro level is a statistical illusion. Statements like the 2nd law of thermodynamics (tendency towards chaos) are not hard and fast rules. They are statistical tendencies which are so strong that they are virtually certain.

But, momentum of particles changes spontaneously. That means that there is a chance (obviously remote) that all the particles in the Diet Coke can on my desk will spontaneously move upwards, and the can will start to levitate. There is a chance, however remote, that the molecules on the moon will spontaneously organize into a lovely garden. There is a finite, theoretically calculable probability for any event imaginable.

So for whatever event we’re discussing, we have two possible explanations. First, God intervened directly. Second, a natural molecular reorganization. How do you determine which is correct? How do you assign a probability to God’s intervention? It sounds like lkddav believes that God is more probable than the bloom o’ the moon: P(God) > P(moonbloom). How did he determine that? I don’t want to put words in his mouth, but I’m guessing it’s purely subjective.

psyche23 says that she (?) believes that God is more probable than her friend’s cancer remission: P(God) > P(remission). How did she determine that? I’m guessing it’s equally subjective.

I wonder if the value of P(God) is best determined philosophically. Aristotle believed that P(God) was 100%, based mainly on the First Cause argument. Dawkins suggests that P(God) is 0% (in all fairness, I haven’t read his latest book, so please correct me if I’m wrong). But I’ll be darned if I can figure out an objective way to assign a value to P(God). I suspect that psyche got it right:

You know, until I came to this thread I was unaware of how much my faith is a gift.

Maybe that’s exactly right. Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit – if you ain’t got it, you ain’t got it. Maybe that subjectively assigned value of P(God) boils down to inspiration from above.

I’ve just started CS Lewis’s Miracles, which deals with this subject – hopefully it’ll be enlightening.

Anyone have any thoughts?

A, let me ask you a specific question. If Jesus appeared before you right now, and answered all of your questions to your satisfaction, and performed any miracle that you asked, and then told you to go join the Catholic church, would you do it? If such a thing happened to me, I would make a bee-line to the nearest emergency room for a battery of neurological tests. But assuming that there’s no evidence that you’ve suddenly flipped your lid, would that convince you? Why or why not?

God bless!

 

[dessert]

Babs, I think that’s “cradle” in your sig, not:
“Barbara: cradel Catholic (back in '06))”

Thanks for the pointer I am a rotten speller.
In other matters,

…to the atheist evil is not evil but only “discomfort to me in some way”. This is easy to “prove”, as he can easily show you his being “uncomfortable”. **I am glad he is uncomfortable as I have just vaguely been looking at these threads of his, if he was not uncomfortable I would not have responded. It means he has a conscietious and is (oh boy I know I goofed that spelling) hesitating about things as he is rethinking, and doubful he will return another thread. **

He’d say that no “god” convinced him that his discomfort exists, as all he needs to be “convinced” that he can experience discomfort is HIMSELF (whereupon we would say that he’s set himself up as his own “god”).
He is getting tired of his game and maybe would like some serious discussion. He brought up the name god not me.

He’d say that since there is no “one god” but only a plethora of “relative gods”, **He used gods in the plural but meant the singular I think, as he may want the explanation.**each being some anthropomorphized aspect of some human perception of nature (human nature being simply one of nature’s “nature’s”), and that this “satan” thing that you refer to is just some personification of “that which makes me uncomfortable” where there are as many “satans” as their are people. Therefore, “evil” is from BOTH the gods and from the satans, all of which are the imaginations of the deluded who find the “opiate of the masses” to be their “good”, which is his “evil”.

So evil, to him, is from the god of “delusion” which would have us believe evil is real.I did want to ask him where he thought evil came from, so a gun to the head is an illusion?

Other than making that last “real” an “unreal”, we actually agree with that.**Naturally:shrug: I have no idear what you just said dear. **

We only have 19 posts to go then we lose this fish------
So is evil anti-good?

Is Love anti-hate?

Or are they on the same plain-plane- or planet?

One is real one is not? Is this what you are trying to say?
Thanks for your reply.

 

[dessert]

I am an atheist because there are no gods convincing enough to believe.

What is your background?

 

[holdencaulfield]

By definition “A”, you are not an atheist. You believe in God, you just don’t believe He exists so by definition you are a hypocrite.

 

[lkddav]

He didn’t place it there, he allowed it. Big difference. There could be numerous reasons why he allowed it. I tend to think it was to help both my friend, and myself believe in him and his power. We both had pretty shaky faith then for different reasons, but now we’re both much stronger because of the event. Plus there could be reasons I may never see or know of… Here we’re going back to the whole thing on why God lets bad things happen to good (or bad) people. I think this has been explained throughly already.

Hi Psyche

The same thing that happened to your friend happens all over the world. The billions that don’t believe in your god just give the credit to their’s. The nonbelievers will say something happened that can’t be explained medically.

 

[lkddav]

Sure seemed like it, but if I was wrong I apologize. Sometimes I’m too quick to be on the defensive. I recognize this.

I still don’t think your post really held much for me to answer though. If there’s a question there, I’ll do my best to help out…

Hi

I don’t remember but i think i insulted the person who wrote genesis. I know you didn’t write it.

 

[lkddav]

“If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.” (Luke 16:31)

There is no convincing these people. I think we have tried. But because of their skepticism I don’t think we will ever convince them.

Hello holden

You do realize an a atheist i feel the same way about you. How will i ever convince you that people don’t rise from the dead, invisible beings don’t exist, snakes can’t talk. ect…
I am very proud of my skepticism.

Are you not skeptical of anything yourself?

 

[psyche23]

Hi Psyche

The same thing that happened to your friend happens all over the world. The billions that don’t believe in your god just give the credit to their’s. The nonbelievers will say something happened that can’t be explained medically.

True, but many of those people pray to God. The Christian God. The one and only. If they prayed to a different God, I’d have to see some hard and fast proof, and even then I’d be skeptical. Mostly because God isn’t the only being who can influence human lives. Satan can too and he’s a pretty tricky guy. He’s not going to come right out and say “Ok everyone, I’m a bad guy and I’m here to get you to leave God- the infinate being who is perfect love… actually I would just LOVE it if you would pray to me or to other idols instead… thanks, that’d be great…”

I’m going to anticipate some other questions you have here…

So how do I know it’s God who took the cancer and not Satan??? Because I trust my elders who went before me, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. I trust in my Church and in the traditions passed down to me. They’ve never lied to me so far…

Wouldn’t God just show Satan for what he is rather than have people worship some false idols???
God wants us to help each other. He sent his one and only son to teach us what truth is, and it’s now up to us to teach each other. He did come right out and declare what truth is. Our proof lies on the cross and in the ressurrection.

This just touches the surface I know… But it’s a start at least.

 

[psyche23]

Hello holden

You do realize an a atheist i feel the same way about you. How will i ever convince you that people don’t rise from the dead, invisible beings don’t exist, snakes can’t talk. ect…
I am very proud of my skepticism.

Are you not skeptical of anything yourself?

Not to butt in here or anything, but I think skepticism in and of iself is not necessarily a bad thing. It’s only when you can’t move past it that it becomes a problem. For example, I can be skeptical of a new boyfriend, but when that boyfriend proves over and over to me that he’s the one for me and I ignore it, then the relationship won’t go anywhere. Not necessarily the best example, but it’s all I have off the top of my head.

I am skeptical of so called miracles sure! I want proof- absolutely! But just because I don’t have proof doesn’t mean they’re not true either. But I don’t absolutely *need *proof to believe. I always leave the door open to the possiblity that God is truly intervening.

 

[dessert]

My dad is an atheist one day and a agnostic another. He is very hard on everyone and usually someone who is like that is hardest on themselves, thinking that God cannot forgive the sin and wrongs he does and all people do. When he slips up and sins but won’t admit it he feels like he is a hypocrite if he were to go to church. He doesn’t trust anyone, because he doesn’t want to be made a fool of if he is wrong. If someone wronged him he would never trust them again or it would take a long long time to forgive.
He doesn’t want to beholden to anyone so never asks for help in other words he doesn’t want to have to give anything back. He thinks everryone is out for numero 1. He is very antigovernment because he considers himself his own government. He thinks the government is out to get all the money from the people. He was swearing at me and threatened me when I came back to the Church because then he felt he was really losing control, of me yes and no but he just wants control total. I told him he owed me an apology and he said he didn’t owe me a G-D thing and the next day he was friendly. He said no one owes anyone an even thank you because they are getting paid to do what they are suppose to do. No common courtesy. He didn’t used to be like that he used to be like “A” so no after three threads no I don’t think “A” is an atheist, I think he is trying to prove to someone or himself he is one. But that is not saying if keeps it up he will become a bittler old man with maybe a flicker of a hope left like my dad, who is 86. Come on just keep talking to me and try to change my mind, it is almost comical I keep seeing this in my mind. A hardened heart! But there are times my dad and others will ask me do you really think there might be a heaven? Ummmm what state of mind are living in now at the present? What is the underlying cause of this state? Peace?

 

[dessert]

Hello holden

You do realize an a atheist i feel the same way about you. How will i ever convince you that people don’t rise from the dead, invisible beings don’t exist, snakes can’t talk. ect…
I am very proud of my skepticism.

Are you not skeptical of anything yourself?

Sometimes skepticism is a good thing, nothing wrong with reasoning and thinking and asking questions. Faith comes along with this. On another thread some spoke of this. When you were little your parents told you they were your parents and you had to develop faith they were telling you the truth and believed it and told others when introducing them that here are my parents and called them Mom and Dad. Yes you could see them but God has presented truth through the Church. It is the visible, real walking and talking, existing living with beings on earth and in heaven, I stopped listening to snakes a long time ago.
So pray for the gift of faith.
I’m very proud of my God. I’m never skeptical of my God.

 

[psyche23]

My dad is an atheist one day and a agnostic another. He is very hard on everyone and usually someone who is like that is hardest on themselvesQUOTE]

I’m really sorry to hear there’s so much tension. I hope it will get better.

 

[dessert]

NINE

more posts and counting

 

[Pax]

This is a lie. I answered this question on page 48, post 720 of this thread. Here it is again…

(Hi 659

Evidence you ask? Your god recreating the first 6 days of creation on the moon. Don’t brush this off. If you have a god this is just mere child’s play for him or her. It is a god, correct. It can do this with a snap of a finger.

In the four gospels, jesus said nine times if you are a believer your prays would be answered. You are a believer. Pray that this happens. If it doesn’t your jesus was lying. He plainly said if you believe your prayer WOULD be answered. )

This post was also answered. Your proposition is ridiculous.
This would be sufficient evidence for the world and myself.

I think this will be the forth time i have asked you for a answer.

Can you and your god provide this evidence or not?? A simple yes or no will do.

lkddav

 

[Armor_of_God]

continued@armour of god

What did you think of the concept of evolutionary morality I presented earlier?

Hi Phooney,

I’m going to quote your summary from your earlier post and comment on it:

Originally posted by Phooney in reply to Little Mary (?)

"In a nutshell, the best explanation I can come up with is that our morality evolved with us, destructive behaviour towards the society is generally legislated against, and the legislation is the codified representation of our morality. ‘Wrong’ behaviour hurts other people, and the evolutionary mechanism that usually stops us from doing that is a neurochemical reaction that causes us to feel ‘bad’ about it or to empathise with the people we have hurt. Of course, I realise that people still do go around killing people all the time. Naturally, it must be noted, many of these examples are over religion, but I’m sure those aren’t the examples you were meaning to dredge up. In many cases, I think it is probably a matter of perspective (as in “I’m so poor and I can’t think of any other way to get some money/food” or “these foreigners want to take away my country”) that causes people to go around killing.

The golden rule, as in treating others as you would like to be treated yourself of course predates Christianity by quite some time, forms of it being in the Code of Hammurabi and perhaps the Ur-nammu code, though I haven’t read the latter."

I thought that was very interesting information you provided to support this, about the “cleaner fish”. I suppose I have a bit of a tough time drawing the connection with humans, because I truly don’t see them as being on the same level as a fish.

Your idea of moral evolution is plausible, to a certain extent. People learn that certain things are harmful to society as a whole, and then they either kill the perpetrators or run them out of town. There are still some pretty brutal societies around, though. Would you say they evolve at different rates?
Also, I would say that abortion is quite destructive to society, and yet many societies have legislated “for” it.

If empathy or regret is just caused by neurochemicals that make us feel “bad” about something, would you say that they can stay in the body and keep being released for years, even decades?

How would you explain rich, upper class people who murder or steal?

I’m glad you think things through, or at least claim to! I’ve really enjoyed your posts, and appreciate how calm you have remained. I was wondering, as you do think things through, and also think the bible (I assume this is what you mean by church doctrine?) is inspired by the holy spirit, I was wondering if there is anything in there that you actually disagree with?

Thank you, Phooney.

When I said Church doctrine, I meant all the things that the Catholic Church teaches, which includes the Bible and draws richly from it. Other doctrines would include papal encyclicals and the Nicene Creed. There are things in the Bible I don’t understand, and there are things the Catholic Church teaches that I don’t fully understand at this time, but there is nothing I disagree with.

Being a true member of the Catholic Church means believing that this Church was established by Jesus Christ, guided into the Truth by the Holy Spirit through the Pope, and that not even the gates of hell will prevail against it. If a person accepts this to be true, there is no longer the option to disagree with or discard any of the official teachings of this Church.

However, this in no way at all means that believers are expected to stifle any questions. We are encouraged to learn about our faith. I have found that whenever I have been confused, angry, or saddened regarding a Church teaching, I have always found the answers if I seek with a sincere heart. I study Scripture, read up on the teachings, talk to other believers, talk to priests, and pray. The things that I do not yet understand fully - these I trust that God is ever-wise, and that they are always for the good of mankind.

 

[Armor_of_God]

I have had little interaction with priests which would seem positive. I don’t remember any interactions with them when I was going to church (I was quite young). I can’t fabricate stories to make them look good. I have not related anything personally experienced to make them look bad.

Since you asked, I do have one priest-story…
I was about 16 years old, and found myself homeless in my hometown. I went to our old parish, and noticed there was some work I could do. I went into the church. Not seeing anyone, I went into the back looking for Fr McNamara (the only priest I remembered). I was quickly approached by a man I did not recognize (new priest) who demanded to know what I was doing there. (I likely looked like a street-urchin…dirty clothes and such).
I said that I was looking for Fr. McNamara, who I was informed was not there any more. I said that I had no place to stay, and I was hungry. I asked if I could clean out their transoms for a place to stay or something to eat.
I was told to go to the Salvation Army downtown.
That was the charity at my parish.
I later went to a chinese restaurant, walked around back and started cleaning up around the garbage dumpster. The dishwasher came out and saw what I was doing. A few minutes later, the cook came out and told me to come and see him when I thought I was finished. I did, and they let me eat until I was full. They asked me if I needed any other help, and offered me part time work there.
That was charity at a local restaurant.

I have not had occasion to meet priests other than that. We mostly don’t run in the same circles. I meet them more now that I work in social work, but what I see is usually not that charitable, either.

If I meet some good RC priest I will mention it, but for now, my experiences have not been all that memorable.

I am sorry you had that experience. I wish you could meet my priest.

 

[Armor_of_God]

All available to those who can read.

For those who can’t read, members of the Church who can read and are schooled in the Faith can teach them. Just like in Catechism classes for children. The early members of the Church were taught orally by Jesus, and they passed these teachings on orally to the first mission churches.

Also, there are many teachings counter to the catholic church. How to choose? I think you chose the one that you think is best. What if I don’t think so? Is it OK to choose Krishna, or Allah because they sound better to me?

If you were a Catholic and thought that Krishna sounded better, you would be absolutely free to choose that. You would, of course, no longer be considered a Catholic, and would not expect to take part in any of the Sacraments.

 

[psyche23]

I am sorry you had that experience. I wish you could meet my priest.

That is too bad. You could have met any of the priests I know and I think you would be pleased to find they’re certainly not all like that. It’s unfortunate that first impressions usually do make a lasting mark…