I am an atheist thread 3

[_A]

I would say if they exist they are really demons or angels, beyond that I don’t know how they fit into the picture.

Why couldn’t they be just other created creatures just like yourself? (except for the blue skin of course)

 

[_A]

I had faith first, then I saw some real miracles. It’s like, why can’t you have desert before you eat your dinner? That’s just the way it is.

But I can (and sometimes DO!) have my dessert before dinner.
Why not?

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

You may be interested in knowing that if you can demonstrate any of these things, there is a prize of a million dollars up for grabs with the Randi Foundation. If any of these things are demonstrable and repeatable, then why hasn’t his money been taken?
If you can think of a specific case I would look into it a little, but the trouble is that, even if you prove something unusual, it does not suggest a god, certainly not a specific one.

Are you suggesting that Satan needs a million dollars?

 

[_A]

Are you suggesting that Satan needs a million dollars?

No I was pointing out that if you can demonstrate paranormal abilities (such as prayer having a real direct effect on the world), then you can have a million dollars.
Anyone who can pass the test of a fair skeptic can have the million.

 

[Jonathan82]

No I was pointing out that if you can demonstrate paranormal abilities (such as prayer having a real direct effect on the world), then you can have a million dollars.
Anyone who can pass the test of a fair skeptic can have the million.

You know that brings up a point, have you ever heard of that guy John Edwards the medium, I hope they investigate his show one day because every time he was a guest on a talk show his powers wouldn’t work haha.

 

[_A]

You know that brings up a point, have you ever heard of that guy John Edwards the medium, I hope they investigate his show one day because every time he was a guest on a talk show his powers wouldn’t work haha.

The presence of skeptics dissipates paranormal activity, it would seem.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Without further definition, the question means little. How do you measure intelligence? If you can describe your standard I can answer more clearly.
I think all beings have some understanding. I am not certain that humans have the most understanding in every case. Perhaps translational geometry. How would one tell? I suspect there have been tests on animal intelligence, but the thing is, they will all be human-designed…

Intelligence might be, say, painting a picture from memory. If given a device that allowed them to do that, do you think dolphins could?

I don’t, but I must admit that what you are asking me to agree with is complex. Basically, you are saying that the forces of the universe are the ‘cause’ of my existence. It seems egocentric to me to think that the whole universe was created to house me. Considering the age and size of the universe, that would be ridiculous.

I’m not saying they are here just for you, but they cause you and everything else in the universe to exist, right.

Next you want me to admit that they are more powerful than me. Powerful in what way? The question doesn’t really mean much yet. Next you want me to agree that these forces are responsible for my intelligence. There are many things contributing to that, and I think you could boil it down to those fundamental forces, but again, to think it was all aiming to make me seems arrogant beyond sensibility.

Powerful in that, you don’t really have free will or intelligence, rather you are experiencing the activity generated by the neurons in your brain. You don’t control them, you are just along for the ride, like a puppet.

So when we establish that these forces of the universe are responsible for your existence, and they control every little thing that is you, even what you perceive to be your own intelligence which is not really yours, we start to realize that all these forces are all we are, and are God.

Without this God, we are nothing at all. So there is really no way to lack belief in God, although you can deny it, but again, only because God allows you to.

 

[_A]

Intelligence might be, say, painting a picture from memory. If given a device that allowed them to do that, do you think dolphins could?

The only way I can think of assessing that would be to use a map of the area as their ‘picture’ and see if they notice differences more often than humans do. I think the high-scoring humans would beat the high-scoring dolphins, but I can’t be sure…interesting subject, though. How can we fairly compare mental functions between species without bias?

I’m not saying they are here just for you, but they cause you and everything else in the universe to exist, right.

so the entire universe is ‘caused’ by these natural laws? Sounds reasonable so far.

Powerful in that, you don’t really have free will or intelligence, rather you are experiencing the activity generated by the neurons in your brain. You don’t control them, you are just along for the ride, like a puppet.

I think I have some control, which could be demonstrated by reasonable means. I think it is the theist who lacks control, leaving all ultimate responsibility to their god.

So when we establish that these forces of the universe are responsible for your existence, and they control every little thing that is you, even what you perceive to be your own intelligence which is not really yours, we start to realize that all these forces are all we are, and are God.

Once again? Why are you postulating a god all of a sudden? Is there a reason to?

Without this God, we are nothing at all. So there is really no way to lack belief in God, although you can deny it, but again, only because God allows you to.

I am so sorry for you that you think you are nothing without your god.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

The only way I can think of assessing that would be to use a map of the area as their ‘picture’ and see if they notice differences more often than humans do. I think the high-scoring humans would beat the high-scoring dolphins, but I can’t be sure…interesting subject, though. How can we fairly compare mental functions between species without bias?

If they are nearly as intelligent as even a child why couldn’t you just show them a bunch of Bob Ross episodes then give them some paint and see if they try to paint a picture with their snouts? So, I think that since they probably wouldn’t even consider doing it says they don’t have the same abilities as humans.

so the entire universe is ‘caused’ by these natural laws? Sounds reasonable so far.I think I have some control, which could be demonstrated by reasonable means. I think it is the theist who lacks control, leaving all ultimate responsibility to their god.Once again? Why are you postulating a god all of a sudden? Is there a reason to?I am so sorry for you that you think you are nothing without your god.

Any neuroscientist will tell you that free will is only an illusion, and that everything you do is caused by neuron activity, which exists and operates by the forces of the universe. So as a whole these forces are God, and you don’t make a move without Him allowing it.

Grasping that, since Genesis tells us humans are in the likeness of God, then you can grasp that we can see God in all humans, and realize that this unified force that creates and controls everything is a lot like you, only a lot greater. That’s why your neurons operate the way they do, because they are told to mirror the God that created them.

So really, you can’t honestly deny God exists, you have to start there then either deny it, or go on to explore more of what this God is all about.

 

[Jonathan82]

very nice answer indeed!

 

[c659smith]

I don’t think Jesus performed any miracles in front of those who crucified him. Please correct me if I’m wrong. So I don’t think Jesus ever proved to them that he was the son of god. If he had the power to give such proof, why didn’t he?

You sound like the thief to the left of Christ on the cross.

 

[c659smith]

Why does satan have power? Did god give him this power?

So if god gave them the ability to do evil, then how are these creations of his naturally good. Sounds like they are naturally good and evil.

Supposedly the works of the devil are still ongoing today since people are still “doing evil”. Looks like Jesus didn’t destroy any of that.

A great mystery indeed! Don’t you ever question this? If I was all-good and had the power to do anything I certainly wouldn’t allow diabolical activity and I’d strip any demon of such powers. What would you do if you were god? Would you allow this?

God made the Angels but it is to be understood not in His Image and likeness.God gave the Angels spiritual power and Lucifer and his legions did not want to give the Creator (God) his glory and wanted to be Gods themselves and thus the revolt. Lucifer was cast out of heaven forever and sent to earth. Where Lucifer still retains much of his spirtual power.

God being perfect gave the Angels His naturally good but God does not supress what He creates and allows choices (free will) Lucifer decided to rise up aganist God for his own agenda.

Again Adam and Eve made after the angels but made in His image and likeness were in the garden of Eden. They did not know evil and were given a choice not to eat of the tree in the middle of the garden. The tree of knowledge. Good and Evil or right from wrong.

Lucfer wanting to take control of what God has created tempted Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge by appearing to Eve as an animal and tempting her with being their own God. Eve ate of the tree and gave to Adam. It was then they knew they were naked…

Adam and Eve were then cast out of Eden unto the earth where Lucifer and his legions also was cast. The animal Lucifer used was then to crawl upon the earth on it’s belly the lowest creature. The depictions of a snake tempting Eve is not correct for it was not untl after the temptation that the creature Lucifer used was cursed to crawl upon the earth on it’s belly. the lowest life form.

At this time because of man not being perfect as God and disobeying and nothing that is imperfect is acceptable to God such as Lucifer, Man was then cast out from God’s presence and heaven and as now we all rebel (sin) and were condemned.

We could never again be in the presence of God (see Him)

God in His mercy sent His Son Jesus Christ as was promised to Abraham for He was a righteous Man. Tried with all his heart,mind,and soul to do good. To be like God but not claiming he was God and gave God His Glory.

Remember now like Adam and Eve he was still cast away from God because even righteous he still was not without sin (imperfection).

When Jesus was sent to Earth it was to pay the penaty for man. The penalty of Adam and Eve for disobeying God and the knowledge of good and evil. The penalty being death for no one had been able to have eternal life because of the original sin.

Jesus was the new covenant with God and man. With His death He was the Pascal sacrafice (the perfect lamb) "God " taking our sins upon himself. Jesus was then sent to his death with our sins, going to the darkness and to rise 3 days later from death unblemished with the sins He took upon Himself giving us the ability now to gain heaven and to be in the presence of God defeating Lucifer once again and his complete power over man.

However we then must accept Jesus as God the Son our Savior.Follow HIs teachings such as Baptism.

We still though have a choice and that is to not accept Him (free will) and then we belong to Lucifer (Satan)

The prophets such as Daniel (old testament) and John (revelation) state that Jesus will return and cast Lucifer,his legions, and the men and women who do not accept Jesus (messiah) into the lake of fire and God will once again through His son Jesus take over complete control of earth.
To remove that which was given Lucifer (earth)

Jesus the new Adam and Mary his Mother the new Eve.
For there were only 4 people that came upon this earth without sin and only two entering heaven without ever committing sin.
Our 2nd chance.

 

[Armor_of_God]

Perhaps a change of subject, to break the mood…

As an atheist, I find it a challenge to discuss matters of faith. There seems to be a built-in offendedness (maybe that isn’t a word) when I suggest that someone has wasted their whole life on a misunderstanding.

The long and the short of it:

When you suggest/imply/state that someone who believes is stupid/irrational/delusional because they believe, you can’t help but offend. Combine with that the fact that to the Christian believer, their position is more than a set of opinions and theories, but rather is based on a reasoned, developed personal Relationship of love - and now your judgements become very personal.

I tend to get a little heated when someone suggests that only their god could have supplied morals. (because I have carefully and caringly developed morals without god).

How can we leave the discussion open, without offending as easily?

See above. People aren’t really keen on further discussion when their views aren’t at least seen as valid to begin with, and when their intellect and mental stability are brought into question based solely on their beliefs.

 

[Jonathan82]

Well said Armor of God.

Heres a Link outside of the Bible I learned in my University; for those who like to Judge others beliefs.

tspace.library.utoronto.ca/citd/holtorf/3.8.html

Hope its educational

 

[_A]

If they are nearly as intelligent as even a child why couldn’t you just show them a bunch of Bob Ross episodes then give them some paint and see if they try to paint a picture with their snouts? So, I think that since they probably wouldn’t even consider doing it says they don’t have the same abilities as humans.

Does the same apply to you? If someone can paint better than you we decide they are more intelligent? Of course not, especially if you don’t have the cultural background to know what value painting has.

Any neuroscientist will tell you that free will is only an illusion, and that everything you do is caused by neuron activity, which exists and operates by the forces of the universe.

Wait for it…

So as a whole these forces are God, and you don’t make a move without Him allowing it.

BANG! There you have just jammed your god in with no reason for it! How does this make sense if you don’t believe in a sky-god?

Grasping that, since Genesis tells us humans are in the likeness of God, then you can grasp that we can see God in all humans, and realize that this unified force that creates and controls everything is a lot like you, only a lot greater. That’s why your neurons operate the way they do, because they are told to mirror the God that created them.

So really, you can’t honestly deny God exists, you have to start there then either deny it, or go on to explore more of what this God is all about.

There is nothing you have said which points to a god - except for your wishes, and wishful thinking does not have much to do with reality.

 

[_A]

The long and the short of it:

When you suggest/imply/state that someone who believes is stupid/irrational/delusional because they believe, you can’t help but offend. Combine with that the fact that to the Christian believer, their position is more than a set of opinions and theories, but rather is based on a reasoned, developed personal Relationship of love - and now your judgements become very personal.

See above. People aren’t really keen on further discussion when their views aren’t at least seen as valid to begin with, and when their intellect and mental stability are brought into question based solely on their beliefs.

Are a persons beliefs not a valid measure of their mental stability? If someone believes they are being abducted by aliens, will you treat them the same as your pope?
Belief is something that definitely does reflect our sanity. If you don’t believe me, look up David Icke and see how you feel about his beliefs. He has many followers, too. Are they simply misled, or is there some other problem?
I feel that theists often don’t see my views as valid. Many even get so offensive as to suggest that I don’t really believe what I say, or that their god is responsible for my thinking to begin with. The fact is that assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

 

[Jonathan82]

Its all about interpretation, what David Icke might say are reptilians others will say are demons, thats all.

and trust me I know all about David Icke (and I have one of his books) I was an avid listener of coast to coast am.

 

[_A]

Its all about interpretation, what David Icke might say are reptilians others will say are demons, thats all.

and trust me I know all about David Icke (and I have one of his books) I was an avid listener of coast to coast am.

He said he was the son of god. He says that the leaders of our world are actually reptilians. He is screamingly mad, and it is easy to see.
I think it is fair to assume that either he is mistaken about being the son of god, or all the christians are. Since one of your group (at least!) is definitely wrong, just how do we show our respect for their views?
I say do not be respectful of lies, do not be complimentary of mistakes.

 

[Jonathan82]

He said he was the son of god. He says that the leaders of our world are actually reptilians. He is screamingly mad, and it is easy to see.
I think it is fair to assume that either he is mistaken about being the son of god, or all the Christians are. Since one of your group (at least!) is definitely wrong, just how do we show our respect for their views?
I say do not be respectful of lies, do not be complimentary of mistakes.

The fact of the matter is there is no refutable or provable on this matter, and take a look at my link about Radical Contructivism and tell me what you think. I like peoples opinions on this. My responses are non Bias because I am looking at both sides and its helpful.

 

[Jonathan82]

By the way A I saw some of your fishing pics and where is that place you are at? Its Beautiful.:yup: