I am an atheist thread 3

[Jonathan82]

Your faith will always be tested thats the point, the goal is not to loose it, stay faithful until the end.

I don’t know if you were always Atheist but I read your post about when you where homeless and the priest sent you to the salvation army. You were being tested right there.

 

[Minnie31]

I would also like to know what YOU think makes a person sexually attracted to someone of the same sex.

I think the cause of homosexuality and bisexuality are biological but can be influenced by environmental factors, like cancer. Here’s a link I found interesting: news-medical.net/?id=20718

 

[Minnie31]

I think the cause of homosexuality and bisexuality are biological but can be influenced by environmental factors, like cancer. Here’s a link I found interesting: news-medical.net/?id=20718

Just to clarify, I’m not implying homosexuality is a disease. Sorry if it seemed that way

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

There is no evidence (I won’t try to talk about quantum level events here, because I think that might needlessly complicate the issue, if you don’t mind NE) to suggest that any biochemical reactions don’t adhere to the same rules as any inorganic chemistry, it is all the same stuff. That said, brains are highly complex systems, and the connections between neurons are unique for everybody. So while, if you want to be very blunt about it and say it is all just matter reacting to matter, in complex life it is complex and unique configurations of matter that are reacting. If all we are is matter, and we react uniquely, is that the same as free will?

Anyone who deals much with computers is familiar with emergence, whether they know it or not. Theoretically, a computer’s behavior should be 100% deterministic. In practice, that just isn’t so, because the system is so complex. The behavior is affected by many subtle and unpredictable (name removed by moderator)uts, ranging from the current clock time to unexpected impacts of rogue neutrons. Bottom line is that even though the computer should always behave the same way, they really don’t.

The brain is more complex than any computer, so it makes a certain amount of sense to say that the same phenomenon applies to us. At least, to an outside observer, it makes sense. As I watch a person’s behavior, I can easily say “Superficially, that person’s actions are difficult to predict, which makes me think he has free will. However, this apparent freedom is just an illusion which ‘emerges’ from their complex brain.”

But what about my self-awareness? On the level of my perceptions, there is no question that I seem to have free will. I can choose to type this or that or the other. I can get up and walk away. Zillions of choices are available to me, and I can pick whichever of them I like. Are my perceptions an emergent illusion, as well?

I guess my last question is, does anyone really believe this? If I have no free will, I have no real moral accountability. I can slug the guy next to me, and when he asks why I did it, I’ll just shrug and say “Not my fault, I have no free will!” Why should I make any effort to follow the golden rule, or the ten commandments, or the eightfold path, or whatever your moral system of choice is? Even the philosophers who have spilt buckets of ink arguing that we have no free will behave as if we do.

Fundamentally, I think we all know that we are free to choose good or bad, and I don’t think there is any purely material explanation for that.

Peace!

 

[phooney]

Do you recall skim reading my post(s) about evolutionary morality when you were a bit on the tipsy side a week or so ago? You never did respond in full, so I’m not sure.

I could see myself building another multi-post, multi-quote response here, but it would be largely covering the same ground.

I don’t see how this potential description of free will would contradict ‘moral accountability’ as it is still your unique ‘self’ that is responsible for your actions. Even if it did, I would still think that punching random people in the head because you had no choice would reduce your chance of successfully reproducing as a social animal, in comparison to those that did adopt a more ‘golden rule’ style of behaviour, which I think has it’s basis in simple reciprocal altruism, which in turn doesn’t require much ‘taught’ morality as opposed to behaviour based purely on selectable genes.

You do make some very thought-provoking points though, and I will take it into consideration when I can find the time to read specifically about this topic.

 

[Jonathan82]

Anyone who deals much with computers is familiar with emergence, whether they know it or not. Theoretically, a computer’s behavior should be 100% deterministic. In practice, that just isn’t so, because the system is so complex. The behavior is affected by many subtle and unpredictable (name removed by moderator)uts, ranging from the current clock time to unexpected impacts of rogue neutrons. Bottom line is that even though the computer should always behave the same way, they really don’t.

The brain is more complex than any computer, so it makes a certain amount of sense to say that the same phenomenon applies to us. At least, to an outside observer, it makes sense. As I watch a person’s behavior, I can easily say “Superficially, that person’s actions are difficult to predict, which makes me think he has free will. However, this apparent freedom is just an illusion which ‘emerges’ from their complex brain.”

But what about my self-awareness? On the level of my perceptions, there is no question that I seem to have free will. I can choose to type this or that or the other. I can get up and walk away. Zillions of choices are available to me, and I can pick whichever of them I like. Are my perceptions an emergent illusion, as well?

I guess my last question is, does anyone really believe this? If I have no free will, I have no real moral accountability. I can slug the guy next to me, and when he asks why I did it, I’ll just shrug and say “Not my fault, I have no free will!” Why should I make any effort to follow the golden rule, or the ten commandments, or the eightfold path, or whatever your moral system of choice is? Even the philosophers who have spilt buckets of ink arguing that we have no free will behave as if we do.

Fundamentally, I think we all know that we are free to choose good or bad, and I don’t think there is any purely material explanation for that.

Peace!

yes true but we also receive similar information and we process it similarly also. What I mean is we are all conditioned to know what is wrong and what is good and we all pretty much know what catholicism stands for, Jesus, God etc…

So it would seem irreverent because we know these things. Also a big thing in our religion is forgiveness because of that fact, we are not all born knowing everything. Forgive them for they not know what they do.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

Do you recall skim reading my post(s) about evolutionary morality when you were a bit on the tipsy side a week or so ago? You never did respond in full, so I’m not sure.

Yeah, sorry about that. I didn’t have much to say on the subject, and I got kind of tired of the thread not long after that. Evolved morality is interesting, and maybe I’ll do some reading on it later. Probably about how you feel about free will.

You do make some very thought-provoking points though, and I will take it into consideration when I can find the time to read specifically about this topic.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

edit – I meant to say I know what you mean about having trouble finding the time, not that I was presuming my points to be thought-provoking.

 

[_A]

Yes he does allow those things to happen just like he allows everything to happen. From a the religious point of view your goal is to make it to heaven were none of that exists.

So your god offers torture and strife to all for eternity - unless they worship him. Sounds like that North Korean Dictator…

Another things if you remember the story of Adam and eve which I don’t take literally how its written, but its symbolic,

What a coincidence! I also don’t take the bible as being literal truth…No-one can, reasonably because it is so full of nonsense. What I don’t understand is why people who know how much nonsense and impossibility are in there still think it was commissioned by an omnipotent, omniscient being…

they had paradise but disobeyed there for from that point of view we are born into this world in sin. The whole point of our existence is not to live a perfect life here on earth but believe in God, so that then we can make it back to heaven.

I still don’t see why your god needs to torture so many. Does it make heaven more pleasant to those who do ‘make it’?

 

[_A]

Another point of view. What is years of suffering compared to Eternal life in Heaven?

Which underlines just how little it is to be crucified when you get to RULE heaven and Earth for eternity after.
What is minutes of suffering compared to Eternal rule in Heaven?

 

[_A]

Your faith will always be tested thats the point, the goal is not to loose it, stay faithful until the end.

I don’t know if you were always Atheist but I read your post about when you where homeless and the priest sent you to the salvation army. You were being tested right there.

So was the catholic priest who had a warm meal and comfortable bed when he sent me away.

 

[_A]

Fundamentally, I think we all know that we are free to choose good or bad, and I don’t think there is any purely material explanation for that.

Peace!

An interesting subject. I just wanted to say that I think that ‘better or worse’ is more accurate than ‘good or bad’. There are seldom absolutes…

 

[c659smith]

So was the catholic priest who had a warm meal and comfortable bed when he sent me away.

So when you see a crooked cop or one that abuses his power lets condemn all right.

So when a teacher sexually molests a child all teachers are child molesters right.

Your remark and thinking is twisted.

 

[c659smith]

Well, I held out as long as I could, but Smith is now on my ignore list. I didn’t think there would be anybody that was so willfully ridiculous as him that was also at the same time able to muster up the motor skills to use a computer, let alone actually communicate on some kind of low level as well.

I’m hoping S4J, Armor of God and Natural Enquirer are still planning on contributing to the thread.

I am glad I am on Phooney’s ignore list. During the next week I will pull questions that he refused to answer as well as his response to the theories of evidence.

Phooney does not like to be challenged and cannot express what he believes.

I think I mustered up the skills to post this and may God Bless him and his family but I do not know if he believes in family.

Atheism is a bad bet nothing more.

 

[c659smith]

Do you recall skim reading my post(s) about evolutionary morality when you were a bit on the tipsy side a week or so ago? You never did respond in full, so I’m not sure.

I could see myself building another multi-post, multi-quote response here, but it would be largely covering the same ground.

I don’t see how this potential description of free will would contradict ‘moral accountability’ as it is still your unique ‘self’ that is responsible for your actions. Even if it did, I would still think that punching random people in the head because you had no choice would reduce your chance of successfully reproducing as a social animal, in comparison to those that did adopt a more ‘golden rule’ style of behaviour, which I think has it’s basis in simple reciprocal altruism, which in turn doesn’t require much ‘taught’ morality as opposed to behaviour based purely on selectable genes.

You do make some very thought-provoking points though, and I will take it into consideration when I can find the time to read specifically about this topic.

evolutional morality??? he he he

 

[_A]

So when you see a crooked cop or one that abuses his power lets condemn all right.

So when a teacher sexually molests a child all teachers are child molesters right.

Your remark and thinking is twisted.

I said that he was also being tested. The rest you invented.

 

[Armor_of_God]

Are a persons beliefs not a valid measure of their mental stability?

No.

If someone believes they are being abducted by aliens, will you treat them the same as your pope?

Good question. I certainly wouldn’t write them off right away. But I have a lot more evidence and history to corroborate with believing that what the Pope is saying is true regarding faith and morals. When the Pope speaks and writes, it makes sense to me and speaks to me where I’m at, whatever my state in life. All the reports I have heard and read about alien encounters have not really revealed anything meaningful to me.

Belief is something that definitely does reflect our sanity. If you don’t believe me, look up David Icke and see how you feel about his beliefs. He has many followers, too. Are they simply misled, or is there some other problem?

I don’t know much about this guy. I did look up his website, about the Reptilian theory. I don’t know enough about his beliefs yet, but at this point, I would say that his followers are misled.

I have relatives who are JWs. They are definitely very intelligent, and they are definitely sane. However, they are sadly misled.

I feel that theists often don’t see my views as valid. Many even get so offensive as to suggest that I don’t really believe what I say, or that their god is responsible for my thinking to begin with.

I do think your views are valid. Everyone is entitled to their views.

The fact is that assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

I’m not quite clear on what you’re saying here.

 

[Armor_of_God]

So was the catholic priest who had a warm meal and comfortable bed when he sent me away.

I agree with you, A - and that is for him to deal with.

If this is really still eating at you, you may want to seek him out and talk about it.

 

[Armor_of_God]

Leukemia
Juvenile onset diabetes
Birth defects

Is your god able to reduce suffering, but unwilling?

Yes.

Jesus never promised that we would be free of suffering, but we believe that he showed us how to suffer for the glory of God - to offer up this suffering and learn from it. As Jonathan82 alluded to, it really is insignificant compared to eternal life and eternal love.

The apostle Paul realized this. In his letter to the Romans, this is what he wrote:

“Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will hardship, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?..No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

(Romans 8: 35, 37 - 39)

 

[Armor_of_God]

So your god offers torture and strife to all for eternity - unless they worship him. Sounds like that North Korean Dictator…

I still don’t see why your god needs to torture so many. Does it make heaven more pleasant to those who do ‘make it’?

A, weren’t you guys on the subject of earthly suffering? I believe this is what Jonathan82 was addressing. There is a huge difference.

I think if a person doesn’t understand how suffering in this life can have merit, they will never be able to truly understand Christianity.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Leukemia
Juvenile onset diabetes
Birth defects

Is your god able to reduce suffering, but unwilling?

It’s part of the human experience, if it wasn’t then we’d be something else.