I am an atheist thread 3

[Jonathan82]

So was the catholic priest who had a warm meal and comfortable bed when he sent me away.

thats true yes he was

 

[_A]

I have relatives who are JWs. They are definitely very intelligent, and they are definitely sane. However, they are sadly misled.

Do you think you should show respect for their beliefs? What if some child, upon seeing the respect you show for the JW beliefs, decided to join them? Would you still feel the same about respecting their beliefs? I do respect people. I will not pretend to respect beliefs which I think are wrong. It would be dishonest. Two plus two is NOT five.

I’m not quite clear on what you’re saying here.

If someone wants their belief to have respect, they must have evidence. That which is asserted without evidence can be refuted without evidence (I just learned that this is a quote from a journalist who investigated Mother Theresa for the pope, a Mr. Hitchens)

 

[_A]

I agree with you, A - and that is for him to deal with.

If this is really still eating at you, you may want to seek him out and talk about it.

Nah…I don’t even remember who he is anymore…I only mentioned it because I wanted to share my personal experience with the church. It doesn’t matter to me.

 

[_A]

Yes.

Then he is malevolent. Enjoying seeing people suffer is not something I respect.

Jesus never promised that we would be free of suffering, but we believe that he showed us how to suffer for the glory of God

So for your god to have glory, his creations must suffer?

• to offer up this suffering and learn from it. As Jonathan82 alluded to, it really is insignificant compared to eternal life and eternal love.

Then how insignificant was the crucifiction compared to eternal RULE in heaven?

 

[_A]

A, weren’t you guys on the subject of earthly suffering? I believe this is what Jonathan82 was addressing. There is a huge difference.

I think if a person doesn’t understand how suffering in this life can have merit, they will never be able to truly understand Christianity.

What makes you think that something as valuable to you as suffering will be absent from heaven? If it is so necessary, wouldn’t you be less human without it?

On the other hand, someone who *designs *suffering is pretty awful, in my opinion.

 

[_A]

It’s part of the human experience, if it wasn’t then we’d be something else.

Another way of saying it is that your god enjoys your suffering too much to do without it.

 

[Jonathan82]

I was saw a movie earlier called Gabriel check it out A. Even though the whole movie is an exaggeration there is one point that makes sense being human and everything that comes with it. What I said makes no sense unless you see that movie for yourself. Whenever you have the time that is

 

[_A]

I was saw a movie earlier called Gabriel check it out A. Even though the whole movie is an exaggeration there is one point that makes sense being human and everything that comes with it. What I said makes no sense unless you see that movie for yourself. Whenever you have the time that is

I haven’t even heard of that movie, and seldom watch them. Can you make sense of your gods enjoyment of pain and misery without it?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Another way of saying it is that your god enjoys your suffering too much to do without it.

It’s just saying none of us would be here right now if it was any other way. Would you rather not exist?

 

[_A]

It’s just saying none of us would be here right now if it was any other way. Would you rather not exist?

We are here due to natural processes, and NOT because your story is right.
I was looking for rationality in your myths about your god. Bad place to look for that!

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

I’ve had enough of this thread.

Phooney (or really, anyone here), if you want to talk further, please just private message me.

So long!

 

[_A]

I’ve had enough of this thread.

Phooney (or really, anyone here), if you want to talk further, please just private message me.

So long!

Too bad you are announcing you leaving, I would talk about these subjects, but will not pretend to have respect for every unproved bit of fiction that is passed my way.

Thank you for your contributions, NE. Have fun (if you even hear this)

 

[FaithofAbraham]

We are here due to natural processes, and NOT because your story is right.
I was looking for rationality in your myths about your god. Bad place to look for that!

You were looking for no such thing since if you were you would admit that the power that causes you to exist and controls you is your God, you simply deny it.

Going on to prove that this is the God of the Bible is another matter.

 

[Armor_of_God]

Do you think you should show respect for their beliefs?

Yes.

What if some child, upon seeing the respect you show for the JW beliefs, decided to join them? Would you still feel the same about respecting their beliefs?

If I had that kind of influence on a child, I think they would be able to discern between respecting and following, based on my example. Respecting someone’s beliefs means scheduling visits around when they go to Sunday or weekday meetings. It doesn’t mean attending the meetings, and it doesn’t mean missing Mass when visiting them, in order to accommodate their beliefs. It means respectfully listening to a JW prayer at meal when a guest in their home, but silently praying my own prayer. It doesn’t mean going door-to-door with them. It means acknowledging that this is what they hold as important, and allowing them that right - it doesn’t mean agreeing with them.
Discussions of others’ beliefs with children can serve to explain the belief, but also to explain that we believe differently, and to explain why.

If someone wants their belief to have respect, they must have evidence. That which is asserted without evidence can be refuted without evidence (I just learned that this is a quote from a journalist who investigated Mother Theresa for the pope, a Mr. Hitchens)

I know that you don’t like to use the word “belief” in reference to yourself, although I have noticed you have actually used it at least once recently. Whatever you call it…I have not yet seen you produce any concrete, convincing evidence for what you hold to be true in your life.

 

[Armor_of_God]

Nah…I don’t even remember who he is anymore…I only mentioned it because I wanted to share my personal experience with the church. It doesn’t matter to me.

I don’t know, A …you seem to be holding onto this.

You never know - he might be floored by what you have to say, and you might be floored by what he has to say.

 

[_A]

You were looking for no such thing since if you were you would admit that the power that causes you to exist and controls you is your God, you simply deny it.

Going on to prove that this is the God of the Bible is another matter.

You haven’t proved anything. When you talk about some ‘power’, what are it’s characteristics?
I say that no ‘power’ causes me to exist. Natural occurrences cause me to exist.
As to what controls me, that is very vague. Can you get specific?

 

[Armor_of_God]

Then he is malevolent. Enjoying seeing people suffer is not something I respect.

Why do you draw that conclusion - that He enjoys it?

So for your god to have glory, his creations must suffer?

Not quite. His glory can never be added to or taken away from, but we reveal it in our suffering. Coincidentally, it eventually brings us glory as well.

Then how insignificant was the crucifiction compared to eternal RULE in heaven?

Jesus didn’t have to suffer, but he chose to suffer for us and our salvation. The crucifixion is extremely significant because He suffered as a human, so that we would realize that He knew everything we were experiencing when we suffered. This was not just physical suffering, but it was extreme spiritual suffering - taking on this that He did not merit.
Jesus was already the great Eternal Ruler before He ever came to Earth. He didn’t go and die on the cross just so He could hang out in Heaven. What He did was for us.

 

[_A]

If I had that kind of influence on a child, I think they would be able to discern between respecting and following, based on my example. Respecting someone’s beliefs means scheduling visits around when they go to Sunday or weekday meetings. It doesn’t mean attending the meetings, and it doesn’t mean missing Mass when visiting them, in order to accommodate their beliefs. It means respectfully listening to a JW prayer at meal when a guest in their home, but silently praying my own prayer. It doesn’t mean going door-to-door with them. It means acknowledging that this is what they hold as important, and allowing them that right - it doesn’t mean agreeing with them.

So let’s change the belief and see if this still makes sense to you…their child is dying, and can be saved by a simple medical procedure, forbidden by the JW’s. They let your 3-year old friend die. Do you still show respect for their beliefs? If your children are watching?
I am genuinely curious because, as a parent, I have never felt compelled to pretend to go along with ANY of it. I wonder how it is to deal in a mixed bag, where some conflicting religious beliefs are respected, even to the point of being observed, while others are just too appalling to be respectful of.
If you are someone who is against abortions on the basis of the value of human life, how to ‘respect’ those particular JW beliefs?

Discussions of others’ beliefs with children can serve to explain the belief, but also to explain that we believe differently, and to explain why.

I do discuss beliefs with my daughters, but will show them around many religions if they get interested. There is much beauty and history in the various faiths.

I know that you don’t like to use the word “belief” in reference to yourself, although I have noticed you have actually used it at least once recently. Whatever you call it…I have not yet seen you produce any concrete, convincing evidence for what you hold to be true in your life.

I don’t need anything that certain. To decide if the ice is safe to walk across, I can use evidence that is merely ‘good enough’. I am quite unlikely to fall through the ice.
I guess you could say that I ‘believe’ that a meter of ice is enough to safely walk across. The reason that I so dislike the word ‘belief’, is that it is so often interchanged with ‘faith’. The two words are too confused for my liking.
Belief is just belief. Nothing special, just an acceptance.
Faith is action based on only belief. (you must understand that my position is that there is no evidence of a god or gods, or I would leave out the ‘only’)

 

[_A]

I don’t know, A …you seem to be holding onto this.

You never know - he might be floored by what you have to say, and you might be floored by what he has to say.

I honestly would not recognize him if he worked in my office right now. Also, I will not likely travel several thousand kilometers to see if that same guy is working 20 years later.
It really doesn’t matter too much, because it is not that remarkable. I later got some good help at a restaurant. That doesn’t mean that restaurants are great, or that Chinese people are great, any more than that guys lack of offer means that priests are all bad.
I thought that I had mentioned this, but I spend about the first half hour of every day talking with a pastor. By choice, we enjoy each others company. I don’t talk to priests because I don’t meet any (that I know of) not because I won’t.

 

[_A]

Why do you draw that conclusion - that He enjoys it?

It is phrases like ‘suffering adds to the glory of god’ .

Not quite. His glory can never be added to or taken away from, but we reveal it in our suffering. Coincidentally, it eventually brings us glory as well.

Well don’t get any of that glory on me. Whatever it is, it sounds painful. Are you really hoping for a lot more of it after death?

Jesus didn’t have to suffer, but he chose to suffer for us and our salvation. The crucifixion is extremely significant because He suffered as a human, so that we would realize that He knew everything we were experiencing when we suffered. This was not just physical suffering, but it was extreme spiritual suffering - taking on this that He did not merit.
Jesus was already the great Eternal Ruler before He ever came to Earth. He didn’t go and die on the cross just so He could hang out in Heaven. What He did was for us.

If he is all-powerful, why did he need the appearance at all? Could he not just have decided to give everyone a chance at salvation without arranging to have someone kill him?
Oh, and by the way, if he wanted me to think he really knew what it was like, he would have been mortal, not rise up a few days later like some superhero.