I am an atheist thread 4

[_A]

A, You did not address the word hijacked that you used for the child developing in the womb and being dependent on the mother for life.

What exactly is wrong with the word? I am not the one suggesting that a blastocyst is a person, so I don’t know how else to describe it. Indeed lots of the time the parasite is not expelled by automatic biological processes. At that point it needs a willing host until it’s own organs develop. At some point along the way, the fetus gets enough out of it’s own development to survive on its own, but even then, while it gets its food through a cord attaching it to it’s mother, it is a parasite.
If I needed to be hooked up to your kidneys to clean my blood, I would be a parasite (and a grateful and happy one, I assure you). It is not an insult, it is just what is happening.

 

[apostolic_jason]

A
I am new to this thread, and probably will not get invloved, because it is super long. I don’t know what has been written, I will simply state some facts.
Let me start by saying I am not catholic,so my experieces are probably different from those you have spoken to. (in fact if i were a catholic, I’m not sure that I would have much interest in God or church to be quite honest.)

In addition to the obvious-design, creation, conscience, Jesus crucifiction and ressurrection, etc.
I would only like to share a couple of experiences of mine. Doubt if you would like, these things can be verified, and no one who knows me and is aware of these things would argue that they didn’t happen,though many of my friends and family are not in the church.

The 2 things I want to mention is that
1)God baptized me in the Holy Ghost in February of 2000 in Haltom City,TX. This was that baptism in the Spirit wich is accompanied by speaking in tongues. I have done this on several occasions, I can tell you there is a certain genuineness in this experience, not mere emotionalism, or hypnosis. No one did anything except for place a hand on my head and say “in the name of Jesus, recieve ye the Holy Ghost.” If there was no God, this would be impossible.
2) God, in December 2004, healed my crippled child of JRA. My child was in extreme pain all of the time, screaming,hurting,crying, many times into the night. Could’nt ride in a car long, couldn’t run, we were told she would never be a normal child, and she may have to attend a special school. She would need hip surgery, and perhaps knee surgery. She was originally treated at Cooks Childrens Hospital in Fort Worth, then Cooks Childrens in Medical City Dallas, then Scottish Rite Childrens Hospital. Despite this, all we got were testings, blood samples, and pain killers. The day the doctor sent methotrxate, the beginning of the process for the eventual hip surgery, my wife flushed it down the toilet. So outside of advil, my daughter never had any medicine (i’m not against medicine,but in this case it validates what happened). So of couse in December 2004, in Arlington,Tx, at my home church, evangelist Donny Napier preached and then prayed for my daughter. Of course she was healed, the next day she had rapid improvement, though everything was not completely back to normal, it took about a week. But since then, no more trips to the hospitals, no more problems,she can run and play, and is a normal kid attending Boyd elementary in Boyd,TX.
There is a God, and He is a God who loves us, and who cares for us. As the apostle paul wrote, “so what if some do not believe, does ther unbelief make the faith in God of none effect. God forbid.”
God is God regardless of whether you admit it or not, He doesn’t need your approval, and if you don’t come to this realization in this life, you certainly will upon passing from this life to the next.
God is reaching out in His great grace to you,even now.

 

[teri74]

Why do you think she hid it? Do you think it is because of the shame the Catholic Church assigns to that act? I do. It sounds like you two have a loving relationship and uncommonly open communication. So why did she wait to tell you? As I said, I think it is because of the way everyone around her frowns on it. You said yourself that you wouldn’t take her to get one.

**As I am her mother, I think I am an in a much better position than anyone to know why she did it and why she waited to tell me, although, even as a mother I won’t claim to even begin to understand everything that went on in her mind at that time. I am not Catholic; she was not then or is not now (at age 29) a Catholic. I would say at 16 she had very little (if any) knowledge of Catholic doctrine. I also don’t think she didn’t tell me before hand because “everyone around her frowns on it.” I cannot remember a time when she and I had a deep discussion about abortion and my feelings for or against the issue. We did, however; have several discussions regarding my feelings about teenagers being sexually active. We did (and still do) have a very close relationship and very open communication. I talked EARLY with both of my daughters about sex. I discussed from my own experience that what you perceive to be “love” can be as intoxicating as a drug. It told them how easy it is to be carried away on a wave of emotion without stopping to think what might happen. They knew that it was my opinion that although physically they might be ready at that age for sexually activity, they were not emotionally ready. That was my opinion. They also knew that become sexually active carried with it a great responsibility. We had an agreement that even if I didn’t agree, if they were going to have sex they needed to tell me so that I could ensure that they got the medical care that was required to go along with it, including birth control. As I didn’t know that she was having sex, it is possible PART of the reason she didn’t tell me before hand is that she thought I would be upset she didn’t hold up her end of the deal. The other parts of why bring me back again to how people are all different and therefore we shouldn’t put blanket reasons for things on every situation. **

I think she had the abortion because she was afraid of losing the perceived “love” of her boyfriend. I think that was more important than anything to her because she felt abandoned by her father and didn’t want to be abandoned by another male that she “loved.” I think she was pressured by her boyfriend to ignore her relationship with me because he didn’t want to take responsibility for the pregnancy and if she told me I would talk her out of it. He was waving the money in front of her and his love as well. I think that there are no simple answers to these situations. Had she told me beforehand, my utmost concern would have been that she wasn’t emotionally capable to making a good decision. Had I known, perhaps I could have helped her get there, but instead some unknown nurse at a clinic told her that because she had Irritable Bowel Syndrome it would be “best” that she had the procedure. Someone who had no knowledge of my daughter’s medical history, mental history, or family history told her what was best, along with a 17 year old boyfriend that was just as scared as she was.

Originally Posted by A
I recommend adaptive technologies to allow you to enjoy the computer longer, and pain-free

Originally Posted by teri74 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
Thank you for the recommendation, unfortunately, I think the only adaptation that would help at the moment is a new body. Although I am a believer, I am not expecting to wake up with one in the morning!
_A_;3636483:

In the bible, it says that if you believe, god will answer your prayers. Either you don’t think you really believe, or you don’t believe the bible.
If your god can ignore your sincere prayers, how is he so different from a god that doesn’t exist?
.

A—I don’t think that my spiritual life would ever be bound by a church or a doctrine. The Bible is a source of comfort for me in some ways, but I take every word literally. I have said that my faith has grown by observing people who have strong spirits, those who face adversity with great dignity, or those that give selflessly to others. I have a very painful, dibilitating disease that at times makes it difficult to sit at my computer for very long. I can tell you without any doubt that for me God does exist. He is who sits with me when I hurt, comforts me when I cry, and brings me hope. I don’t have any proof of this, so maybe I’m just a little nuts. I just know that I would rather be nuts than not have my faith.

**Teri **

 

[Ronald_E]

I have not been brainwashed regarding this issue. And who cares whether such terminology has been established by males or females. Is that really important?

Thanks again for the laugh.

Laughing is a defense mechanism and indicates you do not want to look any deeper. It appears that you would rather laugh than cry. I do not blame you. It would be very difficult to be a woman and take on all the responsibility that women have placed on them.
I have seen so (too) many women burned out from the load of that responsibility. Their immune systems eventually weaken to the point that all sorts of immune deficiency illnesses begin to take over and chronic pain becomes a way of life.

 

[Ronald_E]

What exactly is wrong with the word? I am not the one suggesting that a blastocyst is a person, so I don’t know how else to describe it. Indeed lots of the time the parasite is not expelled by automatic biological processes. At that point it needs a willing host until it’s own organs develop. At some point along the way, the fetus gets enough out of it’s own development to survive on its own, but even then, while it gets its food through a cord attaching it to it’s mother, it is a parasite.
If I needed to be hooked up to your kidneys to clean my blood, I would be a parasite (and a grateful and happy one, I assure you). It is not an insult, it is just what is happening.

I would help you, you parasite!

 

[Armor_of_God]

I am using the scientific definition of ‘parasite’, to describe the type of dependency the developing fetus has on the host (the mother).

In the common understanding of the scientific definition, it has a negative connotation (eg. lice, tapeworm). The dictionary definition of humans as parasites also always has negative connotations. You know that the people you are conversing with believe the being in the womb is human.

 

[Minnie31]

Laughing is a defense mechanism and indicates you do not want to look any deeper. It appears that you would rather laugh than cry. I do not blame you. It would be very difficult to be a woman and take on all the responsibility that women have placed on them.
I have seen so (too) many women burned out from the load of that responsibility. Their immune systems eventually weaken to the point that all sorts of immune deficiency illnesses begin to take over and chronic pain becomes a way of life.

You would be correct, I’d rather laugh than cry since I found your assumptions amusing, not sad.

Anyway, yeah there are a lot of women taking on too many responsibilities and not taking care of themselves. But guess what? Men do the same thing too. A man who is a single parent, for example, with full custody of his children who works many hours and tries to balance his family and professional life may also have the same immune systems responses you described above. By the way, I don’t view people in terms of gender, color, religious affiliation etc. I see people as people. We all have responsibilities but some people are just better at handling them than others.

 

[teri74]

** The Bible is a source of comfort for me in some ways, but I take every word literally. **

**Teri **

A

I meant to say above the I DON’T take every word literally. I also don’t care who wrote it, who put it together, who choose which books to include. I just know the words bring me comfort and insight.

Crazy Teri

 

[Armor_of_God]

I have been asking why one human has the right to use anothers organs without permission. I don’t think it is an inhuman question, and I suggest that you think about whether this is a personal attack.

A,

Of course I thought about it before posting, which is why I held off for a while. If I wanted to attack you, I would have done it immediately. Rather, it was a personal observation of your approach to something. I hope that you will differentiate between a personal attack and a comment on one’s behavior, and I expect you to be frankly honest with me as well about my behavior. Also, please don’t kid yourself into thinking that you have been innocent of making personal attacks in these threads.

Many do. Would you think it was a good idea to deny them abortion?

Yes, I would. A, this goes deeper and wider than we have discussed so far, and is also part of why I feel we have no common ground on this.

I do not treat is as a human - but you do. If it is a human, why does it not have the basic responsibilities of a human?

I don’t think you are following my logic at all. If I decided to keep a baby it would be because that baby was wanted. You would make a woman keep a baby against her own wishes, if you had your way. That is how babies get slapped around, starved and born with alcohol and drug problems.

Your logic says that all human beings that have some sort of dependence on another person should also be fully responsible for surviving if they want to live, and should take full adult responsibility for their actions. So, a newborn baby should fend for itself. A two-year-old should spend time in jail for assault if she hits or bites someone. A five-year-old should get a job in order to buy food to eat and clothes to wear.

No problem, there are many other topics we could pick up. I hope we can find one, too.

Wanna talk about fishing?

 

[_A]

The day the doctor sent methotrxate, the beginning of the process for the eventual hip surgery, my wife flushed it down the toilet.

Have a look at this news article. Read it carefully, since I don’t want any of your kids deaths to result in criminal negligence charges for you.

**Children’s health can’t be left to faith alone **

When parents won’t seek medical care, they must be punished by law

Commentary
By Arthur Caplan, Ph.D.
MSNBC contributor
updated 3:12 p.m. MT, Mon., March. 31, 2008ction UpdateTimeStamp(pdt) { var n = document.getElementById(“udtD”); if(pdt != ‘’ && n && window.DateTime) { var dt = new DateTime(); pdt = dt.T2D(pdt); if(dt.GetTZ(pdt)) {n.innerHTML = dt.D2S(pdt,((’’.toLowerCase()==‘false’)?false:true));} } } UpdateTimeStamp(‘633425947422000000’);

getCSS(“3027626”)
Ava Worthington is dead. She was only 15 months old when she died. The people responsible are her parents, who relied only on prayer as their child expired before their eyes. The question is whether they deserve to be put on trial for doing so. I think they do.
Ava succumbed on March 2 to bronchial pneumonia and a blood infection, problems easily treated with antibiotics. But Ava’s parents, Carl and Raylene Worthington of Oregon City, Ore., do not believe in antibiotics. As Ava struggled for days to breathe, her parents prayed, never calling a doctor,

Just because you believe in a spooky imaginary father figure in the sky who makes you mumble nonsense doesn’t mean that you can deny a child proper medical care.

**…snip…**but instead some unknown nurse at a clinic told her that because she had Irritable Bowel Syndrome it would be “best” that she had the procedure…

might want to review that article, too…

I don’t have any proof of this, so maybe I’m just a little nuts. I just know that I would rather be nuts than not have my faith.

**Teri **

This kind of sums up the rational part of anyones faith. I have heard people say that they had good rational reasons for their faith, but when pressed, they have not. I commend you for your honesty.

I would help you, you parasite!

Maybe true, but that doesn’t mean you are a decent guy. By your standards, you would be required to help me. If you chose to buy me a coffee that would be kind, but just letting me hijack your body is nothing special (according to your stated standards)

In the common understanding of the scientific definition, it has a negative connotation (eg. lice, tapeworm). The dictionary definition of humans as parasites also always has negative connotations. You know that the people you are conversing with believe the being in the womb is human.

I am basing this on it’s being a person (which I don’t fully agree with). If it is a person, its behavior is like a parasite.

A,

Of course I thought about it before posting, which is why I held off for a while. If I wanted to attack you, I would have done it immediately. Rather, it was a personal observation of your approach to something. I hope that you will differentiate between a personal attack and a comment on one’s behavior, and I expect you to be frankly honest with me as well about my behavior. Also, please don’t kid yourself into thinking that you have been innocent of making personal attacks in these threads.

I have been mostly innocent. People often think if I say something they don’t like about their belief in fiction or the histriocity of Jesus that I am insulting them personally, and this is simply not the case.

Yes, I would. A, this goes deeper and wider than we have discussed so far, and is also part of why I feel we have no common ground on this.

You aren’t allowed to see things any other way if you are a true and believing Catholic. I understand. You may indeed have other reasons for your believing, but that huge one would be enough.

Your logic says that all human beings that have some sort of dependence on another person should also be fully responsible for surviving if they want to live, and should take full adult responsibility for their actions.

Nope, my logic says that if you are going to grant this being personhood, you have to include the responsibilities of personhood, such as using your own organs and not some specific other persons.

So, a newborn baby should fend for itself. A two-year-old should spend time in jail for assault if she hits or bites someone. A five-year-old should get a job in order to buy food to eat and clothes to wear.

Nonsense, and if you read what I said, you will find that I didn’t type that anywhere. You have misinterpreted my logic and run the wrong way with it.
Or perhaps you are being disingenuous.

Wanna talk about fishing?

I can barely stand it…the temperature is warm enough to go, but there are still a few feet of ice between me and my precious lakes. Soon I will get my boat in and then I can post some pictures of the most beautiful spring I have ever seen.
I really like this area…hang around (likely on thread 5) for the pictures and see if you can reasonably disagree with THAT!

 

[Pier]

A: I have been asking why one human has the right to use anothers organs without permission.

This is a strawman argument…

Babies do not petition to be born.

 

[_A]

This is a strawman argument…

Babies do not petition to be born.

If this blastocyst is a person, why are you so reluctant to confer the responsibilities of personhood (i.e.- using your own organs)?

And kindly explain how this is a strawman argument.

 

[Ronald_E]

You would be correct, I’d rather laugh than cry since I found your assumptions amusing, not sad.

Anyway, yeah there are a lot of women taking on too many responsibilities and not taking care of themselves. But guess what? Men do the same thing too. A man who is a single parent, for example, with full custody of his children who works many hours and tries to balance his family and professional life may also have the same immune systems responses you described above. By the way, I don’t view people in terms of gender, color, religious affiliation etc. I see people as people. We all have responsibilities but some people are just better at handling them than others.

I do view people in terms of gender because it is ignorant not to. Each gender has its unique abilities and its unique reaction to experiences in life. I wrote about the differences in the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex on one of the previous two or three pages if you want to look at that instead of using your opinion as a basis for reality when looking at gender differences. Men and women do not have the same immune responses.
Women are in the majority in being single parents. If you see people as people then you would see that certain people have different characteristics than others and that these characteristics have been to discriminate against others who are different.
If you see people as people then why do you not see the baby in the womb as a person? Is it because you are prejudiced because it does not look the same as you or is not in the same social economic class as you, or is it because it is not a utilitarian object to be used for you pleasure or purpose?

When you laugh it is a defense mechanism that prevents you from being more open to your vulnerable feelings and prevents you from having the compassion needed to understand that the child in the womb is human and dependent on us for life.

There is usually some history of pain that prevents people from being able to see the child in the womb as being human. In defending oneself from this pain it prevents the sensitivity of that person from being exposed to further pain. Being open to one’s vulnerability to being hurt will result in knowing the life of the human begins at conception.
One analyst who described the process of the beginning of this defensive posture stated that this begins in early childhood in a relationship with a narcissistic parent when the child sees that the parent is concerned more with what the parent wants than what the child needs. The child then goes into hiding to defend itself against the disappointment of this psychological abandonment and begins to relate to the world from a false personality. Over time this false personality begins to harden and the person begins to lose touch with this vulnerable original self.
As this analyst stated, “It is a pleasure to be hidden, but disaster not to be found.” This is from the book Thoughts Without a Thinker by Epstein.

 

[_A]

I do view people in terms of gender because it is ignorant not to. Each gender has its unique abilities and its unique reaction to experiences in life. I wrote about the differences in the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex on one of the previous two or three pages if you want to look at that instead of using your opinion as a basis for reality when looking at gender differences. Men and women do not have the same immune responses.
Women are in the majority in being single parents. If you see people as people then you would see that certain people have different characteristics than others and that these characteristics have been to discriminate against others who are different.
If you see people as people then why do you not see the baby in the womb as a person? Is it because you are prejudiced because it does not look the same as you or is not in the same social economic class as you, or is it because it is not a utilitarian object to be used for you pleasure or purpose?

When you laugh it is a defense mechanism that prevents you from being more open to your vulnerable feelings and prevents you from having the compassion needed to understand that the child in the womb is human and dependent on us for life.

There is usually some history of pain that prevents people from being able to see the child in the womb as being human. In defending oneself from this pain it prevents the sensitivity of that person from being exposed to further pain. Being open to one’s vulnerability to being hurt will result in knowing the life of the human begins at conception.
One analyst who described the process of the beginning of this defensive posture stated that this begins in early childhood in a relationship with a narcissistic parent when the child sees that the parent is concerned more with what the parent wants than what the child needs. The child then goes into hiding to defend itself against the disappointment of this psychological abandonment and begins to relate to the world from a false personality. Over time this false personality begins to harden and the person begins to lose touch with this vulnerable original self.
As this analyst stated, “It is a pleasure to be hidden, but disaster not to be found.” This is from the book Thoughts Without a Thinker by Epstein.

It looks like you have to attack the person instead of the argument.
If you have an answer to why one person should be allowed to take anothers’ organs for it’s own use I have not seen it, but I have seen you try to imply that there is something wrong with the mind of anyone who disagrees with you.
Attack the argument, not the person. If you cannot, maybe that should tell you something about the argument.

 

[teri74]

might want to review that article, too…

A–With this statement I think you have accomplished what it is you love to do. If you are hinting that I would deny my child proper medical care you are very wrong and treading on very thin ice with me. I could tell you the rest of the story but I see that it doesn’t matter what I say you take it and turn it around to make another point in favor of your views. I don’t care what you say…to elude to something as serious as this to prove your point is mean spirited.

Teri

 

[phooney]

Armor of God:

He does, but you don’t believe it.

I have better, observable, explanations for most, and you have no evidence that can be observable to other people of your personal experiences. I have no good reason to believe it thus far. It would be good if he would do something that we could all observe and attribute to the same god. Leaving things so vague would seem to indicate that he loves the conflict generated by such ambiguity in his actions and hidden nature. No matter what ones total views about god, the majority of the rest of the world disagrees.

You’re welcome, but I personally do not need to receive credit for ‘good’, unless I can then point towards God. God doesn’t need it either, but I have no one else to thank but Him as the source of good.

Then I guess on the flip side there’s no real reason for you receivig credit for ‘bad’ either. Other than arbitrarily assuming that god is the source of good, and therefore ‘bad’ must be the fault of humankind, or via satan corrupting us. Of course, humans certainly have a long history of attributing good or bad results to external intelligent agencies, like leaving gifts to the spirits of the well so that it doesn’t dry up. If it dries up then you didn’t please them, if it flows just fine then you did. Either way the presence of the spirit was confirmed, and would have been confirmed whether it existed or not.

Personally, I think it is best to receive the credit for the things you do, be they good or bad. If I put in a hard day at work, I want to be paid, etc.

When I was a kid, I believed certain things were right “because God said so”. However, as time goes by, I realize more and more that the morality I was taught (and continue to study) makes sense in so many ways. These ‘laws’ are natural laws that protect us from physical and spiritual harm, and ensure our wellbeing.

I tend to agree at the moment, though obviously with no evidence for a ‘spirit’ any laws relating to spiritual matters are pretty much irrelevant for me.

 

[phooney]

apostolic jason:

This was that baptism in the Spirit wich is accompanied by speaking in tongues. I have done this on several occasions, I can tell you there is a certain genuineness in this experience, not mere emotionalism, or hypnosis.

So what did you say when you spoke in tongues? What ancient language did you bring forth?
Ronald E:

Laughing is a defense mechanism and indicates you do not want to look any deeper. It appears that you would rather laugh than cry.

There are other reasons for laughing you know

 

[Ronald_E]

It looks like you have to attack the person instead of the argument.
If you have an answer to why one person should be allowed to take anothers’ organs for it’s own use I have not seen it, but I have seen you try to imply that there is something wrong with the mind of anyone who disagrees with you.
Attack the argument, not the person. If you cannot, maybe that should tell you something about the argument.

A, I am not attacking. It may feel like an attack but I am not attacking. I am simply and clearly defining the psychological dynamics within all of us that prevent us from a deeper understanding of what it means to be human. If that is interpreted as an attack it is not coming from me. The feeling of being attacked belongs to the person with the feeling in response to something that is said that influences that person to feel attacked. That is the vulnerable self that I am talking about and it is that vulnerable area that needs to be explored in order to understand why we take the philosophical positions that we take.

I say what I say here out of concern for those in the womb and outside the womb. A world based on self-preservation is what we have now and it is destroying itself.

Regardless of whether or not we believe in God we have to value human life from beginning to end and not see it as a parasite. When you use the term parasite that is an attack against the dignity of being a living human being.

 

[Ronald_E]

A–With this statement I think you have accomplished what it is you love to do. If you are hinting that I would deny my child proper medical care you are very wrong and treading on very thin ice with me. I could tell you the rest of the story but I see that it doesn’t matter what I say you take it and turn it around to make another point in favor of your views. I don’t care what you say…to elude to something as serious as this to prove your point is mean spirited.

Teri

I agree.

 

[apostolic_jason]

Have a look at this news article. Read it carefully, since I don’t want any of your kids deaths to result in criminal negligence charges for you.Just because you believe in a spooky imaginary father figure in the sky who makes you mumble nonsense doesn’t mean that you can deny a child proper medical care.

A, I don’t have to worry about that, perhaps you didn’t read my post closely enough. She is completely healed! Has been since 2004. Anyway, I didn’t get on here to argue, i appreciate your concern, but I wanted to share my thoughts. I am done with this thread. Happy arguing to everyone.