I am an atheist thread 4

[_A]

A–With this statement I think you have accomplished what it is you love to do. If you are hinting that I would deny my child proper medical care you are very wrong and treading on very thin ice with me.

Sorry if I don’t give your feelings or faith more weight than facts and it displeases you, but, a health professional advised her on a medical matter and you tossed it aside with your belief. You might be right or wrong, that is why a cautionary tale such as that news story is appropriate. If you don’t ask yourself regularly if your faith is interfering with your reason, then you could well end up in the sad state that this couple were in.
If you really thought your god had sent you a message to bomb an abortion factory, could you do it?

I could tell you the rest of the story but I see that it doesn’t matter what I say you take it and turn it around to make another point in favor of your views. I don’t care what you say…to elude to something as serious as this to prove your point is mean spirited.

I am not being mean-spirited. I don’t believe in a spirit. If this is mean, it is just me being me. If you don’t like being cautioned against letting fiction overtake reason, I understand, but I am not going to your thread and doing this. You are here in mine, and I have said from the outset that I don’t believe in religious nonsense.
Would you expect me to think it is OK to let fiction decide medical matters?

A, I am not attacking. It may feel like an attack but I am not attacking. I am simply and clearly defining the psychological dynamics within all of us that prevent us from a deeper understanding of what it means to be human.

You made an ad hominem ‘attack’. Check this wiki article on it…
"Wikipedia:

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: “argument to the man”, “argument against the man”) consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

It makes it look like you cannot address the argument itself, so you have to discredit the arguer somehow.
If you had a reasonable argument, you wouldn’t have to address the person at all. It wouldn’t matter if it were a man, woman, child or computer virus.

If that is interpreted as an attack it is not coming from me. The feeling of being attacked belongs to the person with the feeling in response to something that is said that influences that person to feel attacked. That is the vulnerable self that I am talking about and it is that vulnerable area that needs to be explored in order to understand why we take the philosophical positions that we take.

If you can’t address the argument I understand. But don’t you think it is kind of strange of you to offer unsolicited psychological analysis? Maybe you should wait to be invited to investigate someone’s psychological problems. I know I don’t appreciate it.
Why is it that you can’t address the argument?

Regardless of whether or not we believe in God we have to value human life from beginning to end and not see it as a parasite.

So even if it is true, we still better not see it that way, eh? Spoken like a true believer.

When you use the term parasite that is an attack against the dignity of being a living human being.

No, it is a description of the type of relationship between two (you say) people.

I agree.

Yes, of course. What about you, Ronald E? Same question, if you believed your god was ordering you to bomb an abortion factory, could you?

 

[Minnie31]

I do view people in terms of gender because it is ignorant not to.

As a result, do you treat women differently from men? If so how and why?

If you see people as people then why do you not see the baby in the womb as a person?

I addressed this issue on a previous thread. Look it up if you’d like.

Is it because you are prejudiced because it does not look the same as you or is not in the same social economic class as you, or is it because it is not a utilitarian object to be used for you pleasure or purpose?

None of the above.

When you laugh it is a defense mechanism that prevents you from being more open to your vulnerable feelings and prevents you from having the compassion needed to understand that the child in the womb is human and dependent on us for life.

When you say “you” are you referring to me specifically? Are you making assertions about me here? You don’t know me. If you want to know something about me, ask.

 

[Minnie31]

It looks like you have to attack the person instead of the argument.

Those with anger issues tend to do this. And if I remember correctly, I believe that Ronald E stated that he has such issues.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3578439&postcount=838

 

[Armor_of_God]

I have been mostly innocent. People often think if I say something they don’t like about their belief in fiction or the histriocity of Jesus that I am insulting them personally, and this is simply not the case.

I disagree, my friend.

Hey, which do you prefer on the BBQ: lake trout or northern pike?

You aren’t allowed to see things any other way if you are a true and believing Catholic. I understand. You may indeed have other reasons for your believing, but that huge one would be enough.

A true and believing Catholic chooses Catholicism because they agree with it.

You are as much a believer as I, A. Perhaps more so. Your religion is moral relativism/secular humanism.

Nonsense, and if you read what I said, you will find that I didn’t type that anywhere.

Absolutely, and I didn’t say you typed it. But your words implied it.

You have misinterpreted my logic and run the wrong way with it.
Or perhaps you are being disingenuous.

I can’t think of any other way to interpret it. What would cause you to draw the line anywhere?

I can barely stand it…the temperature is warm enough to go, but there are still a few feet of ice between me and my precious lakes. Soon I will get my boat in and then I can post some pictures of the most beautiful spring I have ever seen.
I really like this area…hang around (likely on thread 5) for the pictures and see if you can reasonably disagree with THAT!

Perhaps you could get a little mini ice-breaker to make your way out to the center of the lake? Is that where the fish are supposed to be best?

 

[Ronald_E]

Those with anger issues tend to do this. And if I remember correctly, I believe that Ronald E stated that he has such issues.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3578439&postcount=838

I absolutely am honest about my anger. I haven’t denied my anger at all. I do not have an anger issue because I am well aware of it and take responsibility for it. If I did not take responsibility for my anger I never would have known God to the extent I do. If I do not recognize and confess my faults to others I remain cut off from a deeper relationship with God.
I have put myself in positions in which I can see the faults that continue to separate me from others and also from God.
I do not attack with insults like you do calling someone’s belief fantasy or fairy tales. All I bring up is the psychological dynamics associated with the hardness I see expressed in your tone towards those who believe in God or believe that life of the human being starts at conception in the womb.
Why would you attack people who love God when they are not the crazy people who claim to love God and do cruel things to others?

 

[_A]

I disagree, my friend.

Hey, which do you prefer on the BBQ: lake trout or northern pike?

While I am not much of a fish eater, when I do have some I definitely prefer lake trout. The pike are great (best is fresh out of a frozen lake), but I can’t stand all the bones. I never could get that trick to deboning, and never liked eating fish enough to pursue the knowledge. I prefer hot-dogs or beef-jerky

A true and believing Catholic chooses Catholicism because they agree with it.

So the rest are victims of some kind, it seems.

You are as much a believer as I, A. Perhaps more so. Your religion is moral relativism/secular humanism.

Since I don’t know what those are, exactly, I definitely aren’t one.
I have no religion.

Absolutely, and I didn’t say you typed it. But your words implied it.

So I can say that you imply things and it would be true? Stick to what I said, I don’t like the taste of straw.

Perhaps you could get a little mini ice-breaker to make your way out to the center of the lake? Is that where the fish are supposed to be best?

With a meter or so of ice remaining, I would need quite a ship. I think it will be better to spend time making improvements to the boat and fishing kit while I wait for open water.

 

[Minnie31]

I do not attack with insults like you do calling someone’s belief fantasy or fairy tales. All I bring up is the psychological dynamics associated with the hardness I see expressed in your tone towards those who believe in God or believe that life of the human being starts at conception in the womb.
Why would you attack people who love God when they are not the crazy people who claim to love God and do cruel things to others?

First of all, I have never referred to anyone’s beliefs as a fantasy or fairy tale. You must have me confused with someone else.

Secondly, there is no hardness in my tone. Again you are either confusing me with someone else or totally misinterpreting what I write.

Finally, I have not attacked anyone on this forum or otherwise regarding their beliefs in a god or gods. Why do you continue to make false assertions about me? Please get your facts straight before posting.

Have a good night.

 

[Ronald_E]

First of all, I have never referred to anyone’s beliefs as a fantasy or fairy tale. You must have me confused with someone else.

Secondly, there is no hardness in my tone. Again you are either confusing me with someone else or totally misinterpreting what I write.

Finally, I have not attacked anyone on this forum or otherwise regarding their beliefs in a god or gods. Why do you continue to make false assertions about me? Please get your facts straight before posting.

Have a good night.

Sorry Minnie, I did not look at the previous quotes you made. I was wrong.
Check your quotes and see what you think about my percepttion of hardness. If you don’t want to I can understand. I am exhausted from a long day at the office and at the end of the day I have very little left.
I just want to point out that our core beliefs about ourselves, other people and the world in general result from a history of personal relationships that either validate or invalidate who we are.
I have put enough info in previous posts to explain what I am talking about and it has been rejected or taken as an attack.
Everything I have stated about psychological dynamics comes from study in the field of psychology and 30 years of experience.

 

[teri74]

Sorry if I don’t give your feelings or faith more weight than facts and it displeases you, but, a health professional advised her on a medical matter and you tossed it aside with your belief. You might be right or wrong, that is why a cautionary tale such as that news story is appropriate. If you don’t ask yourself regularly if your faith is interfering with your reason, then you could well end up in the sad state that this couple were in.
If you really thought your god had sent you a message to bomb an abortion factory, could you do it?

I am not being mean-spirited. I don’t believe in a spirit. If this is mean, it is just me being me. If you don’t like being cautioned against letting fiction overtake reason, I understand, but I am not going to your thread and doing this. You are here in mine, and I have said from the outset that I don’t believe in religious nonsense.
Would you expect me to think it is OK to let fiction decide medical matters?

1. I didn’t toss anything aside. At a subsequent Dr. visit I was told that the statement the nurse made was not medically sound. My “belief” is that one should use all medical avenue’s available to treat illness. My “belief” is that when people I love and care about are sick (including myself) I find comfort in prayer. I don’t expect them/me to be cured by it.
2. I get that you “don’t give my feelings or faith more weight than facts” very clearly.
3. You’re right, I don’t think you are being mean anymore, your aspirations are much higher. I am graciously going to retreat from “your thread” or as I would put it…your playground, where you anxiously await the arrival of juicy morsals of words to come across your computer screen from those crazy “believers” so you can cut them and paste them and pick them apart with your sharp mind. The place where it’s ok for you to speak frankly about what you believe using any sort of descriptive avenue you wish, but for those who disagree with your beliefs, in your playground you have strict rules as to how others should phrase or express their thoughts of disagreement. I think you are a master manipulator. You know exactly what words will inflame the believers that visit and you weave them through your responses with just the right temperance to get the kettle brewing, adding just a few more swigs of venom in hopes that one of the bible thumping Christians will blow a gasket so you can prove once and for all that they are phoney, that their faith means nothing, that it’s all a joke and YES…you were right…good for you!!

Well…the kettle got pretty hot under me, but I won’t blow a gasket. This because although I may have used the phrase “maybe I’m just a little nuts” because I am a believer in God and I don’t have the proof you seek in his existence, I think I am fairly sharp minded too. Given that, rather than blow a gasket I remind myself how each individual follows their own road and all of us need to stop and play occasionally, but now I have graduated myself to a new grade level and I their playground is much larger, the grass is greener, and everyone plays really nice there.

 

[_A]

I absolutely am honest about my anger. I haven’t denied my anger at all. I do not have an anger issue because I am well aware of it and take responsibility for it. If I did not take responsibility for my anger I never would have known God to the extent I do. If I do not recognize and confess my faults to others I remain cut off from a deeper relationship with God.
I have put myself in positions in which I can see the faults that continue to separate me from others and also from God.
I do not attack with insults like you do calling someone’s belief fantasy or fairy tales. All I bring up is the psychological dynamics associated with the hardness I see expressed in your tone towards those who believe in God or believe that life of the human being starts at conception in the womb.
Why would you attack people who love God when they are not the crazy people who claim to love God and do cruel things to others?

Have you begun to understand what an ad hominem attack is and why it is wrong?

1. I didn’t toss anything aside. At a subsequent Dr. visit I was told that the statement the nurse made was not medically sound. My “belief” is that one should use all medical avenue’s available to treat illness. My “belief” is that when people I love and care about are sick (including myself) I find comfort in prayer. I don’t expect them/me to be cured by it.

Then you are in the ‘rational’ group. You must admit, it sounds like you just ignored the opinion of a medical professional. If you don’t think it is valuable to constantly evaluate your faith and its interference in reality you are in danger of hurting someone through neglect.
I know you don’t want to be here, where someone might openly question your belief in fiction, but just what did you think you would find here? Another person who ‘respects your faith’? Do you respect the faith of the couple who prayed their daughter to death? If yes, just what does that mean? Would you have snuck that child medicine given the opportunity? I would have, regardless of their belief. I respect people just fine, but the horrible beliefs that are detailed in the bible are not worthy of respect.

but now I have graduated myself to a new grade level and I their playground is much larger, the grass is greener, and everyone plays really nice there.

Well, if it feels good, it must be the truth you seek. I don’t accept *only *the comfortable truths, though.

 

[Ronald_E]

.

It makes it look like you cannot address the argument itself, so you have to discredit the arguer somehow.
If you had a reasonable argument, you wouldn’t have to address the person at all. It wouldn’t matter if it were a man, woman, child or computer virus.

A person cannot be separated from their beliefs. Beliefs are the result of feelings associated with people in experiences that create pleasure or pain.

If you can’t address the argument I understand. But don’t you think it is kind of strange of you to offer unsolicited psychological analysis? Maybe you should wait to be invited to investigate someone’s psychological problems. I know I don’t appreciate it.

I can understand why you do not appreciate it. You offer your psychoanalysis in the form of responses that attack the person’s integrity and intelligence when you state you know better than they about their relationship with God. Calling someone’s belief fantasy is an attack against them personally and it is an analysis made by you. Therefore, you set the precedent which I have followed in stating my analysis about your belief system. If you compare how you and I have expressed our analyses I think you will see that I have not questioned your integrity nor your intelligence and have offered a presentation based on education and experience for the most part in kindness for educational purposes.

Yes, of course. What about you, Ronald E? Same question, if you believed your god was ordering you to bomb an abortion factory, could you?

Irrelevant.
This will be interesting to see if I was able to post this correctly.

 

[Ronald_E]

I Did It!!!:d

 

[Pier]

Originally Posted by Armor of God
A true and believing Catholic chooses Catholicism because they agree with it.

So the rest are victims of some kind, it seems.

The only victims referred to on this thread are the ones whose voices have been silenced before they were born. This thanks to the current culture, which worships the deity of “self first”, adheres to its dogma of death wrapped in a warm-and-fuzzy blanket of, “If it feels good, do it - we’ll just brush those inconvenient clumps of cells under the carpet - Oh, but don’t forget to pay up front first!”

You want to talk about the generations of people brainwashed by this doctrine? And it’s funded by the tax dollars of people that don’t believe in it, too. How many millions of **our **tax dollars aid your abortion mills?

 

[_A]

A person cannot be separated from their beliefs. Beliefs are the result of feelings associated with people in experiences that create pleasure or pain.

Perhaps you can’t be seperated from your beliefs, but I have several times seen this happen in myself - when facts contradict belief.

I can understand why you do not appreciate it. You offer your psychoanalysis in the form of responses that attack the person’s integrity and intelligence when you state you know better than they about their relationship with God. Calling someone’s belief fantasy is an attack against them personally and it is an analysis made by you. Therefore, you set the precedent which I have followed in stating my analysis about your belief system. If you compare how you and I have expressed our analyses I think you will see that I have not questioned your integrity nor your intelligence and have offered a presentation based on education and experience for the most part in kindness for educational purposes.

Once again, focusing on my person just shows that you can not focus on my argument. Keep attacking my person, because there are many lurkers who can see you proving yourself unable to address this.

Irrelevant.

Not at all. I think it is very relevant. If you really thought your god was ordering you to bomb an abortion factory, would you?
It is an uncomfortable question, but I think it is relavent and important. Ignore it if you like, though. That is a clear enough answer.

This will be interesting to see if I was able to post this correctly.

I think you did, congratulations!

The only victims referred to on this thread are the ones whose voices have been silenced before they were born.

No abortions have taken place on this thread, we are merely discussing the developing embryo as if it were a person with the rights and responsibilities that go along with personhood. If anyone has had an abortion on this thread, it was in secret.

This thanks to the current culture, which worships the deity of “self first”, adheres to its dogma of death wrapped in a warm-and-fuzzy blanket of, “If it feels good, do it - we’ll just brush those inconvenient clumps of cells under the carpet - Oh, but don’t forget to pay up front first!”

You do like stuffing with straw, don’t you?

You want to talk about the generations of people brainwashed by this doctrine? And it’s funded by the tax dollars of people that don’t believe in it, too. How many millions of **our **tax dollars aid your abortion mills?

The church is the organization which is brainwashing. Just look at how they dodge when facts interfere with their precious beliefs.
If you would define this developing embryo as a person, why would it not have the responsibilities of personhood?

 

[Ronald_E]

Perhaps you can’t be seperated from your beliefs, but I have several times seen this happen in myself - when facts contradict belief.

I was separated from my beliefs about God when my beliefs changed due to experiences that defied my beliefs about the existence of God.

Once again, focusing on my person just shows that you can not focus on my argument. Keep attacking my person, because there are many lurkers who can see you proving yourself unable to address this.

I do not see an attack on you. I challange your beliefs but not by calling them fairy tales or fantasies as you do.

Not at all. I think it is very relevant. If you really thought your god was ordering you to bomb an abortion factory, would you?

You do not know my God. My God would not tell me to bomb an abortion factory. My God tells me to run across the country silently praying the rosary for single mothers and unborn children and to raise awareness and money for their care. I love what my God tells me. The god you reference lives in the mind of people who hate.

It is an uncomfortable question, but I think it is relavent and important. Ignore it if you like, though. That is a clear enough answer

It is not an uncomfortable question for me because as I stated above my God would not tell me to do that act of murder. My God tells me to love everyone and to pray for those who do not love me. That is the standard to which I try to live and at times fail miserably. But I keep trying to open up to love more and that is why I exist. I do not do this because I fear God. I do this because I love life.

I think you did, congratulations!

Thanks for you help and encouragement.

The church is the organization which is brainwashing. Just look at how they dodge when facts interfere with their precious beliefs.

Please identify specific instances.

If you would define this developing embryo as a person, why would it not have the responsibilities of personhood?

A, You know the answer to that question.

 

[Pier]

No abortions have taken place on this thread,

Please note, I said referred to…

we are merely discussing the developing embryo as if it were a person with the… responsibilities that go along with personhood.

Not really - this is the spin you’ve put on the discussion…

If you would define this developing embryo as a person, why would it not have the responsibilities of personhood?

What responsibilities would a person put on a baby?

Were you given responsibilities as an infant? or as a one-year old?

Did you put such responsibilities on your infant children? How about your grandchildren?

What **are **you talking about?

 

[_A]

I was separated from my beliefs about God when my beliefs changed due to experiences that defied my beliefs about the existence of God.

You still believe in a god, and even think you know it’s mind. All without suitable evidence.

I do not see an attack on you. I challange your beliefs but not by calling them fairy tales or fantasies as you do.

You continually address my person instead of the argument. You have been addressing (or attacking) the wrong element. If you have a counter argument, I would be glad to hear it, but so far all you can say is that I am not right so my argument can’t be right. This is called ‘ad hominem’. If you can’t address the argument, you are showing anyone with a background in logic that you have no answer (which is why you address my person instead, to cover your lack).

You do not know my God. My God would not tell me to bomb an abortion factory. My God tells me to run across the country silently praying the rosary for single mothers and unborn children and to raise awareness and money for their care. I love what my God tells me. The god you reference lives in the mind of people who hate.

So you know the mind of a god? Great! If you can demonstrate some of this ‘special knowledge’, you will be on the way to convincing me that it is not just violent fiction.
So why not demonstrate how you have ‘special knowledge’?

It is not an uncomfortable question for me because as I stated above my God would not tell me to do that act of murder.

If your god is the one from the bible, he has ordered murder more often than the Satan of the bible - many times more.

My God tells me to love everyone and to pray for those who do not love me.

This is what you believe. Since this god is imaginary, you are imagining these instructions. If he is more than imaginary, I would welcome your evidence. By the way, if it isn’t available to everyone, it is not evidence.

Thanks for you help and encouragement.

You’re welcome. I suggest fiddling around with the formatting in PM’s to other users. It will help you get better at it, while you can do your own criticism until you are ready to show off your skills in regular threads

Please identify specific instances.

The book of Genesis. It is baloney from start to finish. Or do you really believe that the earth was created in six days?
Do you really believe that all that nonsense about the great flood?
The bible is laughably inaccurate, for one thing, on the age of the earth.
For another on ethics.
In the bible, it says you are supposed to kill your kids if they curse (their parents) you. Would you do that? If not, how do you justify ignoring parts of the bible?

A, You know the answer to that question.

Nope, that is the question which you have been unable (or unwilling) to answer all along.

Were you given responsibilities as an infant? or as a one-year old?

Yes. I was responsible for having my own organs and breathing for myself, among other things. Had I shirked my responsibilities, I would have died, as many have (including that kid who had parents who thought prayer was as good as medicine)

 

[Armor_of_God]

While I am not much of a fish eater, when I do have some I definitely prefer lake trout. The pike are great (best is fresh out of a frozen lake), but I can’t stand all the bones. I never could get that trick to deboning, and never liked eating fish enough to pursue the knowledge. I prefer hot-dogs or beef-jerky

Northern pike aren’t the prettiest fish around, either, IMO.

So the rest are victims of some kind, it seems.

You may be right. But victims of what – that’s up for discussion.

Since I don’t know what those are, exactly, I definitely aren’t one.

You don’t necessarily need to know what they mean to follow their tenets.

So I can say that you imply things and it would be true? Stick to what I said, I don’t like the taste of straw.

Straw ain’t so bad, with a little milk and honey. Fiber is good for you, too.

With a meter or so of ice remaining, I would need quite a ship. I think it will be better to spend time making improvements to the boat and fishing kit while I wait for open water.

Hmm. Well, maybe you still have another few weeks of ice fishing, then…

 

[Ronald_E]

You still believe in a god, and even think you know it’s mind. All without suitable evidence.
You continually address my person instead of the argument.

In the above statement you are addressing my person and analyzing what I know to be true with your belief that I am “without suitable”. In essence you are doing what you accuse me of doing and in your accusation you are a prime example of ad hominem. My evidence works for me and in my logic it follows from my evidence that God is real. Your criteria for evidence is not my criteria for evidence therefore, I do not have to prove anything to you because your criteria does not fit into my paradigm for the existence of God. I know God and you know god or do not know God based on your criteria for evidence. You and I exist in different realms of reality based on our different ways of perceiving.

You have been addressing (or attacking) the wrong element. If you have a counter argument, I would be glad to hear it, but so far all you can say is that I am not right so my argument can’t be right.This is called ‘ad hominem’. If you can’t address the argument, you are showing anyone with a background in logic that you have no answer (which is why you address my person instead, to cover your lack).

You use the word “attacking” to label my statements. Are you saying something about me that is not true? Did I ever say that you are wrong? You have used “attacking” and “wrong” as words to describe what I have presented to you. Show me the evidence. The last line above is another statement in which you give another example of ad hominem. More fun later. I am eating dinner with the person who led me back to God after enduring 27 years of me without God.

 

[teri74]

Well, if it feels good, it must be the truth you seek. I don’t accept *only *the comfortable truths, though.

Please don’t assume anything about me. Your assumptions expressed on this thread regarding me have a track record of being 100% inaccurate. I observe that you make many assumptions in the responses of those who post here based very little real knowledge. That seems odd considering your are so logical.

Good for you that you don’t accept only the comfortable truths. That’s a good idea because there are so many things in this world that are uncomfortable, so many things that do not have easy answers, you know, that can’t be summed in a millisecond with a response on a computer screen. It really feels good to me that I know this “truth” as well.