I am an atheist thread 4

[cynic]

Your problem is one of bias and perspective. The punishment we receive is of our own making.

Try some of life’s more obvious lessons. When people continuously make selfish decisions they usually lead very unhappy lives. People that engage in self-destructive behavior usually lead very unhappy lives. People that lead hateful lives usually lead very unhappy lives. I could go on and on but you get the idea. These people make their own hell on earth and they cannot blame God for their unhappiness. Likewise, those that die in an unrepentant state of hatred will reap what they sow. Their hell is self made. Their self made hell on earth is horrible and miserable, and their self made hell in eternity is horrible and miserable.

Atheists like to think that their lives are of their own making, and that they are in control of their own destiny. It seems to me that an atheist should, therefore, be able to appreciate the fact that if God exists then we shouldn’t blame Him for the consequences of our unrepented sins. Atheists should at the very least “man up” on this one. Atheists should believe that, if God does exist, then people need to take responsibility and ownershlp for the consequences of their actions. Why blame God?

but being *mostly *good in action or thought is not enough. You have to devote your life completely to God and accept that your main, no **only, **purpose in life is to please and glorify him. Anything short and you’re in hell for eternity.

That’s the problem, people who are not completely selfish (and most people aren’t) get the same end as those who are. The fact that hell is a punishment that, according to the Bible, contains physical torment also further brings into question whether hell is something people truly choose.

 

[Pax]

The monstrance is a trinket. Your god is not a crumb of bread. Just because you imagine that to be the flesh and blood of a long absent god does not make it so. No matter how hard you imagine it.

You are right about one thing…God is not a crumb of bread. You of course are right about this, but for all of the wrong reasons. Moreover, your unbelief and denial does not change the truth no matter how hard you imagine it or want it to be so.

The transubstantiation is just what it looks like - nothing more than muttered words.
If you have a picture of another monstrous trinket you can post it and have two gods.
Your god is still invisible.

You say that transubstantiation is nothing more than muttered words. You say this as if it is a proven fact. Now please provide the proof.

I would appreciate it if you would practice at least some courtesy, eitquette, and good taste. Your statement, “If you have a picture of another monstrous trinket you can post it and have two gods” is rude and sarcastic. It has no place in the discussion.

 

[Pax]

but being *mostly *good in action or thought is not enough. You have to devote your life completely to God and accept that your main, no **only, **purpose in life is to please and glorify him. Anything short and you’re in hell for eternity.

That’s the problem, people who are not completely selfish (and most people aren’t) get the same end as those who are. The fact that hell is a punishment that, according to the Bible, contains physical torment also further brings into question whether hell is something people truly choose.

I think that you have a poor understanding of our relationship with God. Moreover, you do not seem to appreciate the power of God’s grace within us as well as His mercy.

Begin by appreciating our understanding within the framework of Christ’s redemptive work on the cross. God so loved the world that He sent His only son to save us from our sins. An appreciation of God’s infinite love and mercy gives the proper perspective and understanding of His perfect justice.

People do not wind up in hell for minor imperfections.

 

[cynic]

well they don’t wind up in heaven for being more good than bad either.

 

[Pax]

Agreed…sort of!

 

[Jonathan82]

That doesn’t change the fact that both Bush, and the 9/11 attackers were doing what they did in the name of a god.
Face it, this looks strikingly like it would if there were no gods.

First off I’m sorry your mind has difficulty seeing that people are not taught to make those acts by the religion or it is isn’t written either.

Its funny like I said earlier you just want to argue you don’t want to learn or maybe you suffer from memory loss. Go ahead take it personal if you wish but the fact is Ive you make all of us repeat ourselves and give you so many different examples about the same things and yet you keep asking the same questions.

I will say it again and after this I will just quote myself for the sake of not wasting time. Again here we go: Hitler, Bush, Osama and anyone you ever heard of that ever said I kill for God; What do they all have in common aside from saying they all kill for God? They kill innocent people. People everywhere can say they kill for God and believe it if they wish or just use it as an excuse, but the fact remains, were does Jesus say go kill your neighbor? It doesn’t.

Stop blaming God for everything, maybe asking him for Understanding will help you but its up to you. Since you choose not to believe and your not open to the possibility of God an intelligent being that is omnipresent, instead you choose to believe things in the Universe just created themselves and there is no purpose to life.

P.S Hope you like my signature.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

The monstrance is a trinket. Your god is not a crumb of bread. Just because you imagine that to be the flesh and blood of a long absent god does not make it so. No matter how hard you imagine it.
The transubstantiation is just what it looks like - nothing more than muttered words.
If you have a picture of another monstrous trinket you can post it and have two gods.
Your god is still invisible.

It’s very interesting that when you’re talking about some scientific issue that you are ignorant of (origin of life, origin of the universe), you declare your ignorance with impeccable humility. Yet when you’re talking about some theological issue that you are ignorant of, you talk with absolute certainty.

 

[_A]

You are absolutely right.

Curiosity abounds…How did you become an expert on what God looks like when you claim that you have never seen Him and that you don’t believe in Him?

Are you claiming that the monstrous metal-art thing is your god?
Are you claiming that a bit of bread is your god?
Even if transubstantiation were true, your crumb of bread can not do any of the things claimed for your god, so it is not your god.
Your god is invisible. Face it.

 

[_A]

You are right about one thing…God is not a crumb of bread. You of course are right about this, but for all of the wrong reasons. Moreover, your unbelief and denial does not change the truth no matter how hard you imagine it or want it to be so.

You say that transubstantiation is nothing more than muttered words. You say this as if it is a proven fact. Now please provide the proof.

I would appreciate it if you would practice at least some courtesy, eitquette, and good taste. Your statement, “If you have a picture of another monstrous trinket you can post it and have two gods” is rude and sarcastic. It has no place in the discussion.

Then perhaps it was wrong of you to post a picture of a metal thing and say that it was your god.
As to the transubstantiation myth, why not just perform the miracle? We will do it in front of the Randi Foundation, and if there is anything magical to it, you will win a million dollar award (for the church of course - we all know how they need money).
If you think it wont stand up to unbiased scrutiny, that is because it wont. Simple. It is still a crumb of bread (or whatever you start with) and nothing more.

 

[_A]

I think that you have a poor understanding of our relationship with God. Moreover, you do not seem to appreciate the power of God’s grace within us as well as His mercy.

Begin by appreciating our understanding within the framework of Christ’s redemptive work on the cross. God so loved the world that He sent His only son to save us from our sins. An appreciation of God’s infinite love and mercy gives the proper perspective and understanding of His perfect justice.

People do not wind up in hell for minor imperfections.

People wind up in hell because that is the way your god set things up.
If he is all-knowing and all-powerful, that is.

 

[_A]

I’m confused. I have told you on a number of occasions what the Catholic church teaches on this matter. You have agreed that it is reasonable. So reasonable, in fact, that you made repeated unsupported accusations of dishonesty. So you know what the church’s teaching is, and you’re fine with it. So what’s the point?

I never said I was fine with it - I think the church takes a dim view of anyone who doesn’t agree with their views (just look into what the penalties for disagreeing have been, historically.) They don’t have the power any more, so they don’t burn or murder as often, but let’s not forget how the church behaved when they DID have the power.

 

[_A]

I believe in God, down to my bones. If I were to decide that this whole religion thing is too hard, and I were to work to convince myself that atheism is true, I think my soul would be in very serious jeopardy.

It sounds to me like you don’t dare to even consider the possibility that your god is just a myth.
How do you consider the question fairly when you are under threat of eternal torment?

Paragraph 1859 goes on to say this: “Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.” I have no idea if either of those apply to you. IF they do, IF you really do believe that God is out there, and that He is offended by your actions… could be trouble.

God bless.

Well, I am glad that according to your belief system all I have to do is remain an unbeliever and I am safe from hell.

 

[_A]

First off I’m sorry your mind has difficulty seeing that people are not taught to make those acts by the religion or it is isn’t written either.

Are you trying to suggest that the bible doesn’t encourage killing?
That is laughable (unless you just disregard the OT).

I will say it again and after this I will just quote myself for the sake of not wasting time. Again here we go: Hitler, Bush, Osama and anyone you ever heard of that ever said I kill for God; What do they all have in common aside from saying they all kill for God? They kill innocent people. People everywhere can say they kill for God and believe it if they wish or just use it as an excuse, but the fact remains, were does Jesus say go kill your neighbor? It doesn’t.

Jesus doesn’t matter here. Men use religion to excuse their murderous treatment of others. They may be using it wrong, but use it they do.

Stop blaming God for everything, maybe asking him for Understanding will help you but its up to you.

If I ever meet him, I may ask, but I don’t think I lack understanding - I understand killing well enough to know that I want nothing to do with the artist formerly known as Yahweh.
Too much killing for my liking. Even killed himself (or was it his son…?)

Since you choose not to believe

That is just it - I don’t choose not to believe. There is not enough evidence to cause me to believe. You might have been able to make yourself believe with poor evidence, but my standards are higher.

P.S Hope you like my signature.

If you believe that your god created the universe, why would you take words in a book (printed by fallible men) over the universe itself?
A book printed by fallible humans could be full of lies. The universe (if he created it) could not be. With so many clear conflicts between observed reality and the fiction in the bible, I think it is an insult to the being you think created the universe to ignore his evidence in favour of something printed by a mere man.

 

[_A]

It’s very interesting that when you’re talking about some scientific issue that you are ignorant of (origin of life, origin of the universe), you declare your ignorance with impeccable humility. Yet when you’re talking about some theological issue that you are ignorant of, you talk with absolute certainty.

It is easy for anyone (except you) to see that your god is invisible. I think he chose that look himself, too (according to doctrine - aren’t you supposed to take it on faith, even if you can’t see him?)

 

[Armor_of_God]

Are you claiming that the monstrous metal-art thing is your god?

No.

Are you claiming that a bit of bread is your god?

God chose to make Himself present in the form of a host, upon consecration by a priest. This is not the only place He is present.

Even if transubstantiation were true, your crumb of bread can not do any of the things claimed for your god, so it is not your god.

How do you know this?

Your god is invisible. Face it.

My God is invisible to you because you choose not to accept what you see.

 

[_A]

No.

God chose to make Himself present in the form of a host, upon consecration by a priest. This is not the only place He is present.

How do you know this?

My God is invisible to you because you choose not to accept what you see.

Your god is invisible because things that don’t exist do not register on the visible spectrum of light.
If your god really does exist in the eucharist, why don’t you go win that Randi prize? Is it because every test that can be done fails to see it?
Your god is invisible. You don’t like me saying it, but it is true. If your god were not invisible, people would not need faith to accept the notion.
Why are you arguing so hard that your god is not invisible? Does giving him real, quantifiable attributes create some kind of conflict for you?

 

[Pax]

Your god is invisible because things that don’t exist do not register on the visible spectrum of light.
If your god really does exist in the eucharist, why don’t you go win that Randi prize? Is it because every test that can be done fails to see it?
Your god is invisible. You don’t like me saying it, but it is true. If your god were not invisible, people would not need faith to accept the notion.
Why are you arguing so hard that your god is not invisible? Does giving him real, quantifiable attributes create some kind of conflict for you?

Are you saying that Jesus was invisible? Are you saying that Jesus was invisible after He rose from the dead and people saw Him? Are you saying that the more than five hundred eye-witnesses saw an invisible Jesus?

 

[_A]

Are you saying that Jesus was invisible? Are you saying that Jesus was invisible after He rose from the dead and people saw Him? Are you saying that the more than five hundred eye-witnesses saw an invisible Jesus?

If he can’t be seen, he is invisible. That, it seems to me fits the description perfectly.

 

[Pax]

Your answer is a dodge.

 

[phooney]

haha oh good.