I am an atheist thread 4

[Aleii]

Aleii,

I could give them the benefit of the doubt, maybe they’d start to listen and not call me a liar, but like I said so far my discussions with them have generated heat not light, therefore, its time for me to stop.

I’m sorry about your crisis of faith, I had one myself when I entered college(much smaller than you I imagine, I just had some doubts). They can be scary. You know how I got over it? I didn’t, God got me over it. Once I quit demanding Him to reveal himself to me somehow, I understood we are here on His terms and not ours, and He will reveal himself when He deems appropriate and not us, its His will that is to be followed.

I wish you well on your journey, and I’ll pray for your reconversion.

God Bless,

Brady

Thanks for the well-wishes. My experiences do not completely mirror yours. But for now, all religions look pretty much the same to me, and there are some important parts of Catholicism that I strongly disagree with. I simply hope that people understand that being an agnostic/atheist is not a choice.

Aleii,
I forgot, you didn’t perhaps read the book of Job during your crisis of faith did you? I would think that that would have been very beneficial, and probably still could be.

God bless,

Brady

Yes, though much time has passed since then.

 

[Aleii]

…but most “proof” comes from God talking to your heart through an incident which He will confirm by some seemingly coincidence. Even if one prays to the bedsheets I believe a greater power will receive those petitions and you will recieve some kind of answer. So, the only “proof” we have is to get something back from our asking.

What would be the downside to god simply talking bluntly directly to us? I can see a lot of benefits to that, whereas, I see much downside to the vague “seemingly coincidence” signs which are often very open to interpretation/misinterpretation.

 

[Schultzz]

What would be the downside to god simply talking bluntly directly to us? I can see a lot of benefits to that, whereas, I see much downside to the vague “seemingly coincidence” signs which are often very open to interpretation/misinterpretation.

Certainly nothing. I was merely relating from personal experience. There is a song/hymn called “In The Garden” which has a refrain which goes, “And He walks with me and He talks with me, and He tells me that I am His own”.

 

[_A]

How about some of my questions now. Is this the first religion you chose to assault or did you give the others equal air time?

I had Roman Catholic parents, who allowed a local parish to attempt to inculcate me during the first years of my life.
Directly for about 13 years.

Did you come to the Catholic Church because you have correctly assumed that if God does exist, the Catholic Church is closest to him?

Nope, I find that since I have that background, it gives me some common experience.

No matter It should be clear by now that the angry prosecutor is not going to answer your questions.

I have answered yours, why shouldn’t this ‘angry prosecutor’ (your god, right?) answer? Does he have a fear of answering?

Try “seeking” him as a diplomat rather that calling for a dragnet as an inquisitor. You could not get to a head of state that way, why try to find the head of the Catholic Church this way?

I am not ‘seeking’. If someone has evidence I will consider it, but why would I go looking for any god? I have not heard of anything offered to RC’s which sounds appealing.

Even if one prays to the bedsheets I believe a greater power will receive those petitions and you will recieve some kind of answer. So, the only “proof” we have is to get something back from our asking. Does this make any sense to you?

Yes, it suggests that humans are able to self-hypnotize into believing in bedsheets as easily as your god…or John Travoltas…or Ghandis…
I don’t need to believe in a bedsheet, I guess.

 

[Schultzz]

“I don’t need to believe in a bedsheet, I guess.”

That may be where you need to start. In some 12 step recovery programs followers are asked to believe in a 'higher power". For some this is inconceivable, so they pick something that might be a little easier to accept.
Trees, bedsheets, etc. Eventually, they decide to change the image of their “higher power” to what their conscience leads them to. To refuse to try to believe in a power greater than themselves is a choice that some make. It usually leads to more disillusionment and unhappiness. Granted many people make drugs and drink, and sinful behavior their God. Again, another choice. It really isn’t as difficult as some atheists make it. It is not rocket science. Try it and see how you feel. Give it some time and an honest effort but start simply - bedsheets are a good way to begin. If it doesn’t work for you then at least you may gain some peace of mind by knowing that you gave it a shot. Who else has to know?

 

[Armor_of_God]

A and others have been here through 4 massive threads. Were they not here to talk and listen, these threads would have died a long time ago.

I hate to tell you this, Aleii, but this horse has been dead a looooooong time.

 

[_A]

“I don’t need to believe in a bedsheet, I guess.”

That may be where you need to start. In some 12 step recovery programs followers are asked to believe in a 'higher power". For some this is inconceivable, so they pick something that might be a little easier to accept.
Trees, bedsheets, etc. Eventually, they decide to change the image of their “higher power” to what their conscience leads them to. To refuse to try to believe in a power greater than themselves is a choice that some make. It usually leads to more disillusionment and unhappiness. Granted many people make drugs and drink, and sinful behavior their God. Again, another choice. It really isn’t as difficult as some atheists make it. It is not rocket science. Try it and see how you feel. Give it some time and an honest effort but start simply - bedsheets are a good way to begin. If it doesn’t work for you then at least you may gain some peace of mind by knowing that you gave it a shot. Who else has to know?

Just how exactly do I go about forcing myself to believe? You seem to be suggesting that I can just choose to believe something even when I know that it is false. Perhaps you had something else in mind and you can explain it.

I hate to tell you this, Aleii, but this horse has been dead a looooooong time.

Funny, you spend a lot of time here on a ‘dead thread’.

 

[Pax]

Just how exactly do I go about forcing myself to believe? You seem to be suggesting that I can just choose to believe something even when I know that it is false. Perhaps you had something else in mind and you can explain it.
…

A another positive assertion made without proof. This time you “know” that the existence of God is false.

Please give your extraordinary proof for this extraordinary assertion.

I’ll make it easier on you…simply give a reasonable and ordinary proof.

 

[Aleii]

Funny, you spend a lot of time here on a ‘dead thread’.

I was going to point out the same

 

[Armor_of_God]

Funny, you spend a lot of time here on a ‘dead thread’.

I’m working on a study to see how many different ways a person can say the same thing.

 

[_A]

A another positive assertion made without proof. This time you “know” that the existence of God is false.

Nope, I meant that I ‘know’ the bible is a load of stories - fiction - and fantastic fiction at that.
How can I believe it when it is so clearly wrong in so many ways?

I’m working on a study to see how many different ways a person can say the same thing.

I like that your humour remains.

 

[Schultzz]

“Just how exactly do I go about forcing myself to believe? You seem to be suggesting that I can just choose to believe something even when I know that it is false. Perhaps you had something else in mind and you can explain it.”

Hello “A”.
Thanks for your reply. Let me begin by saying that of course you cannot force yourself to believe, and thank goodness it doesn’t work that way. Just as you have and others have said you haven’t found enough convincing proof to decide if God is for real. By the same token you have not found enough proof to say without a doubt that He doesn’t exist. When you say you know it is false, I cannot accept that without believing that you have already had some supernatural experience which convinced you of that. Perhaps you have, and if so, could you enlighten me? Without that kind of proof I can only assume that it is just your opinion. Which is fine. What I am saying is to ask God (through the bedsheets) or whatever, to give you a sign or signs of His existence. Perhaps the supernatural which I mentioned before. If you receive that then you will have your answer. If you get your answer, you can make a decision based on that info. You might say, “Whoever You are, if you exist and you are real, please give me some proof.” I am not suggesting any conditions and I don’t think you should either. “God (or whatever noun you wish to use) if you are real and you have a plan for me, prove it!”
I think anything less than that demand on your part will be a strong indication that you are just playing games with yourself, (or us). I can see you are intelligent, and you are searching for proof. Here is your chance to get your proof. I hope this answers your question about what I was getting at.

 

[Armor_of_God]

I like that your humour remains.

I almost have enough info for my thesis. Will you be starting a Thread 5?

 

[_A]

“Just how exactly do I go about forcing myself to believe? You seem to be suggesting that I can just choose to believe something even when I know that it is false. Perhaps you had something else in mind and you can explain it.”

Hello “A”.
Thanks for your reply. Let me begin by saying that of course you cannot force yourself to believe, and thank goodness it doesn’t work that way. Just as you have and others have said you haven’t found enough convincing proof to decide if God is for real. By the same token you have not found enough proof to say without a doubt that He doesn’t exist.

You say that as if you think there is an equal chance of each being true. You have not demonstrated that this is the case.

I can see you are intelligent, and you are searching for proof. Here is your chance to get your proof. I hope this answers your question about what I was getting at.

I have found plenty of evidence that the bible is nonsense. I have no reason to want to believe in a god. I have heard no reasonable descriptions of god. If you think I should search for one, I think it is up to you to make it sound worthwhile.
So far it doesn’t look worthwhile.

 

[Ryan29]

----Taken from The book called The Anti-Christ by Friedrich Nietzsche----

“Modern people act with worldly egoism, pride, and will to power in opposition to Christianity’s denial of the world. Nietzsche considered this falseness to be indecent. Unlike past ages, his contemporaries knew that sham and unnatural concepts such as “God,” “moral world–order,” “sinner,” “Redeemer,” “free will,” “beyond,” “Last Judgment,” and “immortal soul” are consciously employed in order to provide power to the church and its priests.“There was only one Christian, and he died on the cross.” “…Only Christian practice, a life such as he lived who died on the cross, is Christian.” Thereafter, the opposite kind of life was called Christian. Belief in redemption through Christ is not originally Christian. Genuine, original, primitive Christianity is not a faith. It is state of being that consists of “…a doing, above all a not–doing of many things… .” Jesus’ wanted his death on the cross to be an example of how a person can be free from resentment, revenge, and rebellion. The disciples, however, wanted revenge against the Jewish ruling class and high priests who had delivered him to Pilate. They elevated Jesus into being the Messiah and Son of God and promised future judgment and punishment in the kingdom of God. This was in opposition to Jesus’ doctrine that everyone could be a child of God and experience Heaven in their present lives by acting in a gentle, loving manner.”

To me Nietzsche was/is speaking the truth, Christianity died with Jesus and now we have a bible written by man to set rules that we should conform to like Hell, damnation, judgement, and purgatory. In turn creating people that turn their hearts to anger and punishment over being kind and good like Jesus lived by. It seems to Nietzsche that Christianity was built on Anti-Semitism and a need to cast blame on a group of people rather than listen to the quotes and lifestyle of how the Saviour lived in his short life.

How can all this be disputed?

 

[Schultzz]

“You say that as if you think there is an equal chance of each being true. You have not demonstrated that this is the case.”

I think what you meant to say was “You have not proven that this is the case.”

I am sure you would NOT accept my proof no matter what I did short of a miracle right in front of your eyes. Possibly not even then.
The fact is you don’t HAVE to accept MY proof. You would be more believable to yourself if YOU proved it. If God answers your request, then it is YOU that will have experienced the truth. If I didn’t think there was an excellent chance of each being true I wouldn’t have suggested it.

“have found plenty of evidence that the bible is nonsense. I have no reason to want to believe in a god. I have heard no reasonable descriptions of god. If you think I should search for one, I think it is up to you to make it sound worthwhile. So far it doesn’t look worthwhile.”

Once you receive your answer only you can decide if it is worthwhile. There is absolutely nothing I could say to you that would convince you that belief in God was worthwhile. You would never accept my view. You would however, possibly accept YOUR view. I am NOT suggesting that you search for one. You don’t have to. If you make your petition and He hears you and answers you, and gives you proof, (you will be the judge) then you will have already found Him! If after that you find Him not worthwhile, then it is because you have come to that decision. You have NOTHING to lose! Are you afraid to try this? Perhaps. I am confident that you will receive an answer. Other than that there is nothing more for me to say.

 

[Schultzz]

----Taken from The book called The Anti-Christ by Friedrich Nietzsche----

“Modern people act with worldly egoism, pride, and will to power in opposition to Christianity’s denial of the world. Nietzsche considered this falseness to be indecent. Unlike past ages, his contemporaries knew that sham and unnatural concepts such as “God,” “moral world–order,” “sinner,” “Redeemer,” “free will,” “beyond,” “Last Judgment,” and “immortal soul” are consciously employed in order to provide power to the church and its priests.“There was only one Christian, and he died on the cross.” “…Only Christian practice, a life such as he lived who died on the cross, is Christian.” Thereafter, the opposite kind of life was called Christian. Belief in redemption through Christ is not originally Christian. Genuine, original, primitive Christianity is not a faith. It is state of being that consists of “…a doing, above all a not–doing of many things… .” Jesus’ wanted his death on the cross to be an example of how a person can be free from resentment, revenge, and rebellion. The disciples, however, wanted revenge against the Jewish ruling class and high priests who had delivered him to Pilate. They elevated Jesus into being the Messiah and Son of God and promised future judgment and punishment in the kingdom of God. This was in opposition to Jesus’ doctrine that everyone could be a child of God and experience Heaven in their present lives by acting in a gentle, loving manner.”

To me Nietzsche was/is speaking the truth, Christianity died with Jesus and now we have a bible written by man to set rules that we should conform to like Hell, damnation, judgement, and purgatory. In turn creating people that turn their hearts to anger and punishment over being kind and good like Jesus lived by. It seems to Nietzsche that Christianity was built on Anti-Semitism and a need to cast blame on a group of people rather than listen to the quotes and lifestyle of how the Saviour lived in his short life.

How can all this be disputed?

Thank you for your post. I enjoyed reading it. On the surface some of it seems legitimate, dialectically speaking of course. However, I cannot agree with all of it. I am not sure if you would be interested in my critique of your quote so I will NOT automatically respond with that post.

 

[_A]

I almost have enough info for my thesis. Will you be starting a Thread 5?

I think so. I don’t know if I can stop now !

“You say that as if you think there is an equal chance of each being true. You have not demonstrated that this is the case.”

I think what you meant to say was “You have not proven that this is the case.”

No, I mean you have not demonstrated that there is an equal chance that there is a god, and no god.

I am sure you would NOT accept my proof no matter what I did short of a miracle right in front of your eyes. Possibly not even then.
The fact is you don’t HAVE to accept MY proof. You would be more believable to yourself if YOU proved it. If God answers your request, then it is YOU that will have experienced the truth. If I didn’t think there was an excellent chance of each being true I wouldn’t have suggested it.

You don’t think this exercise was done dozens of times? Perhaps you missed the part where I said that I was raised Catholic for my first many years. They try hard to make kids believe that nonsense.
I am confident that the bible is nonsense. It is easy to see just by reading it. Why should I continue to try to believe in the beastly god described in it?

 

[Schultzz]

“No, I mean you have not demonstrated that there is an equal chance that there is a god, and no god.”

Didn’t you understand my post? You would NEVER accept anything I could offer. However, I believe that you might accept YOUR proof.“Nope, I meant that I ‘know’ the bible is a load of stories - fiction - and fantastic fiction at that.
How can I believe it when it is so clearly wrong in so many ways?”

Then DON"T believe it. Who said you had to? I gave you my answer. I am not condemning you, I have nothing against you, I don’t dislike you. If you NEVER reconciled yourself with God as you understand Him, I would never make a judgement against you either way. I just happen to be passing through and took the time and energy to share with you my thoughts. It sounds like you have some anger within you. If you met with someone (a counselor), and voiced that anger, and got rid of it, you might have more peace within you. Please do not think I am trying to be rude, I am a professional, and picked up on your frustration and anger. That’s all. Whatever you may be searching for, whether it be the truth or perhaps peace of mind and happiness, I hope you find it. Good Bye for now.

 

[Ryan29]

Thank you for your post. I enjoyed reading it. On the surface some of it seems legitimate, dialectically speaking of course. However, I cannot agree with all of it. I am not sure if you would be interested in my critique of your quote so I will NOT automatically respond with that post.

Sure, I’m not an atheist with a closed mind, but an agnostic that is looking for the answers that make sense. So feel free to post if you like, I will read it and give you the same courtsey that you have given me.

Thank you.