I am an atheist thread 4

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Hello to all…This is my first time posting on this thread. I have been watching some of the dialog and decided I would like to garner some (name removed by moderator)ut regarding where some of you stand on the human spirit, where it comes from, what makes it strong or weak, good or evil. I was watching CNN this evening and they ran a story about a man who owns a business that sends birthday cakes by internet/mail order all over the US. It told of how one day he received a request from a mother of a soldier stationed in Iraq. She asked if he could send a cake to her son. The business owner said his first thought was “yeah right, how will I accomplish this?” He explained that he brushed this off as an idea that was not conceivable. Then he began to think of the request in terms of his own childhood. Apparently he had come from a poor family in which birthday cakes, parties, etc. where a non-entity. He shared how he felt left out as a child, never having celebrated birthdays and how this lead him to create his business. He realized how important the idea of a birthday cake was for people, how it made them feel special on the day that celebrated their birth. Long story short, last year he sent 400 birthday cakes to troops in Iraq working with military agencies. His goal is to keep working to send a birthday cake to all troops in combat zones within a short time if he can inlist a corporate sponsor. He also works with the “Make a Wish Foundation” to send cakes free of charge to critically ill children. All of this work is done at his expense. What is inside of this man that propels him to do this? What gives him this strength of spirit?

As a young girl I became fascinated with Helen Keller after reading the “Miracle Worker” and went on the read her biography and Anne Sullivan’s biography along with many other books about her life. Helen Keller is a shining example of a human spirit that once awakened to the world by her teacher “saw” such wonderful and infinite possibilities even though her senses were so limited. I quote her below.

“Everything has its wonders, even darkness and silence, and I learn, whatever state I may be in, therein to be content."

“Dark as my path may seem to others, I carry a magic light in my heart. Faith illuminates the way. Although doubts lurk in the shadow, I walk unafraid toward the Enchanted Wood where the foliage is always green; where joy abides; and where life and death are one in the presence of the Lord.”

I suppose this last quote gives away what I perceive illuminates the way. I only know on my darkest days I see only one light that gives me peace, and that same light propels me to want to give back even in small ways. I am still intigued, however; by what influences our spirits.

What do you think?

God Bless!

Teri
 
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Pier:
Our faith is fact. To say that it isn’t, would be like me saying your love for your mother was not a fact, which I’m not saying it is, but you get my point…
Although, what you have faith in isn’t neccesarily fact…
 
Although, what you have faith in isn’t neccesarily fact…
Which is your belief, which you are entitled to as well.

Jesus certainly isn’t pushy - He has left us to choose for ourselves, so whether we follow Him or ignore Him, so be it.
 
Which is your belief, which you are entitled to as well.

Jesus certainly isn’t pushy - He has left us to choose for ourselves, so whether we follow Him or ignore Him, so be it.
Uh… yes, it is my belief that what you have faith in isn’t neccesarily fact. The existence of the object of your faith is what has been the main point of these threads, and evidence that points towards your god is what I’ve been mainly interested in discussing. Thus, there’s been little need for me to contribute much in thread 4.

Dead, potentially ficticious, people generally aren’t pushy, so Jesus is hardly significant in that aspect.
 
Uh… yes, it is my belief that what you have faith in isn’t neccesarily fact. The existence of the object of your faith is what has been the main point of these threads, and evidence that points towards your god is what I’ve been mainly interested in discussing. Thus, there’s been little need for me to contribute much in thread 4.

(/QUOTE)
Dead, potentially ficticious, people generally aren’t pushy, so Jesus is hardly significant in that aspect.
You used the phrase potentially ficticious. What I am curious about is why you stated potentially ficticious.
 
As far as I’m concerned the (my) jury is out on whether Jesus, nevermind as the supernatural god-man walking the earth which is very much further from the realm of possibility, but as a single historical character actually existed. That’s what I mean by potentially ficticious.
 
Uh… yes, it is my belief that what you have faith in isn’t neccesarily fact. The existence of the object of your faith is what has been the main point of these threads, and evidence that points towards your god is what I’ve been mainly interested in discussing. Thus, there’s been little need for me to contribute much in thread 4.

Dead, potentially ficticious, people generally aren’t pushy, so Jesus is hardly significant in that aspect.
Okay…

Well, do a little research on the people and places that lived at that time - use an encyclopedia (any one will do) and look up Jesus, the Herods, Pontius Pilate, etc…

And too, we do not believe that Christ was, but that He is…

Technically, everyone that is dead actually is, for the time being, a soul sans body (to be reunited at the end of time). But (we believe) that Christ is alive, Body and Soul, His very Being, being Divine (while we, being the Creation and indeed ultimately eternally one way or the other, are not Divine beings)…

A question for you now:

Do you really think that people-kind is the epitome of intelligence in this universe?

See to me, that would be much more difficult to prove than the existence of God!
 
As far as I’m concerned the (my) jury is out on whether Jesus, nevermind as the supernatural god-man walking the earth which is very much further from the realm of possibility, but as a single historical character actually existed. That’s what I mean by potentially ficticious.
Yes, the supernatural would be hard to believe. I never believed the supernatural until recently. You know my story. It didn’t help me to believe in Jesus through my observation of Christians either. When I was a kid I was an altar server and when people came to receive Communion the men would open their mouths and I would smell beer and wiskey exiting from their ulcerated stomachs. That did not give me anything except feeling nauseated. That certainly leaves an impression on the hard-wiring. Aside from calling the bible all fiction what experiences led you to your belief?
 
Okay…

Well, do a little research on the people and places that lived at that time - use an encyclopedia (any one will do) and look up Jesus, the Herods, Pontius Pilate, etc…
I suggest YOU do some research, and please tell me if you can find any extra-biblical contemporary evidence for Jesus. Thus far I can’t. No contemporary archaeological or manuscript-based evidence for Jesus. Very interesting, when there were a number of noted historians that we have surviving work from who were supposed to be in the same places that Jesus was said to have been at the same times. In fact, nobody thought to mention him for several decades after his supposed lifespan (unless you can direct me to something new), the first of which describe only spiritual encounters.
And too, we do not believe that Christ was, but that He is…
I don’t doubt that you believe that, however that has little relevance to demonstrable reality if this is simply part of your faith, in the sense of belief without evidence.
Technically, everyone that is dead actually is, for the time being, a soul sans body (to be reunited at the end of time).
Not that anybody has ever been able to detect or observe a soul in any verifiable way of course. This is equivalent to wishful thinking.
But (we believe) that Christ is alive, Body and Soul, His very Being, being Divine (while we, being the Creation and indeed ultimately eternally one way or the other, are not Divine beings)…
I can guarantee that any historical human figure alive two thousand years ago isn’t alive now, biologically speaking.
A question for you now:
Do you really think that people-kind is the epitome of intelligence in this universe?
Not that I have stated that as my position of course. As far as the universe is concerned, I have no idea, I have 0 observations available to me about planets in close enough detail to discern other intelligence. As far as this planet is concerned, yes I think people-kind (by which I assume you mean humans) are the epitome of intelligence, by our own standards. As far as an all-knowing god being the epitome of intelligence in the universe, I think that is probably the least epistemologically justified position of any of these 3 options, but I don’t have a positive belief that there are no gods as a universal negative isn’t something that can be proven, and is where a lot of theists hide due to a logically fallacious shifting of the burden of proof.
See to me, that would be much more difficult to prove than the existence of God!
Lucky for me it was just a strawman though.
 
Yes, the supernatural would be hard to believe. I never believed the supernatural until recently. You know my story. It didn’t help me to believe in Jesus through my observation of Christians either. When I was a kid I was an altar server and when people came to receive Communion the men would open their mouths and I would smell beer and wiskey exiting from their ulcerated stomachs. That did not give me anything except feeling nauseated. That certainly leaves an impression on the hard-wiring. Aside from calling the bible all fiction what experiences led you to your belief?
Indeed, I hear you. However, I certainly don’t think that being a theist or a christian or an atheist is any guarantee of being a pillar of society or being a some kind of whisky swigging ulcerated degenerate that you describe. I know people from many walks of life who I think make the world a better place, and have seen things from people of those same backgrounds that make the world worse, in my humble opinion.

I agree that many experiences, in particular those that happen during the early years of life can have a profound impact on the so-called hard-wiring. However, I think it is equally important that we do what we can to recognise that appeals to emotion have no place in logical argument. All I can do is try to assure you that my direct experiences with theistic beliefs are a varied enough mixture of good and bad that I am not on a personal crusade of some kind. Some emotions will always seep through of course, but alas I am only human.

I certainly didn’t call the bible all fiction, I think many things in it are based on fact. Some that were only written down after generations of oral tradition, with legendary aspects and divine authority for action added, as well as piecing together stories from different cultures and traditions and inserting their own characters in. Legends like this are hardly uncommon from back then.

My belief that I think you were referring to is actually a lack of belief. I have not yet been presented with any compelling evidence that points towards a God. Your story (I think it was you from earlier in this thread?) was an anecdotal personal experience, with no other corroboration of any kind. At the very most this might do for you, but it will never have any rational sway with somebody who hasn’t already presupposed an interfering God. Even with corroboration, cancers do go into remission regardless of what belief system the patient concerned ascribes to.

This is why others have brought out the ‘why won’t god heal amputees’ card several posts back. The answer that I think was given was somewhere along the lines of “because God chooses not to”

Why don’t prayers show any measureable effect on an event in controlled studies? “because god chooses to answer prayers in a fashion of normal distribution that we could reasonably expect from chance alone”

Why does the bible say that the earth rests on pillars and that Jesus rose from the dead and flew into the sky “Because one is obviously metaphor and the other is obviously fact!” Sure it is… If you can claim metaphor and poetry any time you run into a problem, then sure, it’s a reliable document. Just like every single other book ever written. The bible doesn’t come colour coded to tell us what was supposed to be history, what was supposed to be poetry, what was supposed to be prophecy, etc.

In my opinion it is a wonderful collection of ancient writing that we can still glean a lot from regarding the times that it was written, but at the same time it is also a book that was cobbled together from manuscripts spanning hundreds (thousands?) of years from many anonymous authors, and under the sole control of profoundly biased, and individually anonymous editors for many years as well.

Such religious documents have a looooong history of being used for political agendas and as divine justification for great and terrible acts. They obviously have their uses regardless of their truth, so I see no grounds, for example, of using the bible as evidence for the bible. This is highly intellectually dishonest in my opinion.

Anyway, I think I might be rambling off topic, so I’ll cut this post short now.
 
Phooney, There is no way I can prove the existence of God. If you read on a previous page what Teri wrote about the acts of unselfish love and what that may mean, I think a discussion could begin around that.
However, I really appreciate your obvious intelligence. Faith without intelligence can present a pretty ugly picture. A good heart is also helpful and you and A appear to have both. If somehow you would have an anecdotal experience you would greatly boost the quality of our intelligence.
I am returning to work. Catch you later.
 
I just wanted to add this transcript of the CNN story about Josh Kaye, the founder of BakeMeAWish. I see now I didn’t get all the facts correct, but the just of the story is the same. The last sentence says it all—“ I’m excited because I’m making a difference in this world, and that’s my goal in life. It`s about me being here to make this place a better place to live.”

What a wonderful spirit this human has! Did he just wake up one morning and it was there? Did his parents love him, protect him, teach him values? But what about those who grow up with limited traditional values impacted upon them and yet from somewhere their spirits shine upon the world?

Teri

But first, we want to go to our “Real America,” brought to you by CSX. And tonights "Real America" is about your birthday. Your birthday should be, you know, a day that you get lots of attention from your family or friends, unless you dont like your family and friends. And then, “You just leave you alone on my birthday, please.”

But what happens if youre thousands of miles away from home, and its tough enough, you know, not being recognized for your serving your country there. But what happens on your birthday and nobody is around?

Well, one man, he`s amazing, he wants to make sure that every soldier gets their day, one cake at a time. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOSH KAYE, FOUNDER, BAKEMEAWISH.COM: I grew up in a financially- challenged background. I never had a cake growing up. I remember the feeling of how I felt on my birthday, not having a cake. And I pictured myself in that soldiers -- being with that soldier, feeling how lonely it is. You know theyre in harms way, and its their birthday.

BECK (voice-over): Josh Kaye is the founder of BakeMeAWish.com, an online company that sells and delivers cakes anywhere in the country.

Two years ago, Josh received a phone call that changed his company forever.

KAYE: I received a call from a mom, and the mom said, “Can you send my – my son is having a birthday. He`s in Iraq. Could you send him a cake?”

The first thing I said, yes, right. Send Iraq a cake? I just don`t think so. Then I stopped, and I thought to myself, what an amazing possibility that could be.

BECK: So Kaye created Operation Birthday Cake through a partnership with Soldiers` Angels and the Armed Forces Foundation. He sends 5,000 cakes a year to soldiers overseas, all for free.

KAYE: I received this – a letter from a soldier. And she was stationed in Afghanistan. And she received a cake on her birthday in the mountains of Afghanistan. And she said, “You just don`t know what it meant to me. It picked me up; it gave me a lift.”

KAYE: Kaye also gives free cakes to kids through the Make-a-Wish Foundation, in addition, to 5 percent of his company profits.

KAYE: When a child receives a cake, their illness disappears for that moment. They feel special. They feel wonderful. It`s all about them getting that cake and taking them from the moment of being a child with a life-threatening illness to being just a child.

BECK: Kaye`s next mission: secure a large corporate sponsor so he can provide a sweet taste of home to every single soldier on their birthday.

KAYE: Im excited because Im making a difference in this world, and thats my goal in life. Its about me being here to make this place a better place to live.
 
errr… not quite sure what you want to discuss in this thread but…

raises hand

I’m an atheist 🙂
 
That is exactly it. We are all people, individuals (the smallest, most vulnerable minority is the individual). Lumping women together as some fruity, loving ideal is offensive and dehumanising, in my opinion. It is no better than saying that they are all spiteful and conniving. Each statement ignores individuality.
This is such an undeveloped thought for me, that I don’t articulate it well, but I hope you understand. What I said about men was from the same place that, I think, Ronald E’s originated - a deep respect for the people in my life who have taught me about love.

The thing is that I think women are exactly as capable in all those areas.

As I said, it is an undeveloped thought, and I dislike it more than I understand my dislike of it, if you see what I mean.
I think I know what you’re trying to get at, and I agree with the fundamentals of it. Perhaps Ronald E was trying to say that women can love unselfishly more easily, because of their nature. (Ronald, jump in anytime if you think I’m out to lunch.)

Myself, I do believe that men and women are equally capable of having caring qualities, but I also believe they are wired differently, and that they complement each other. I think it is awesome!
I just figured most stopped by to ask me something because I am an atheist, and left when they got their answers. I do think a few leave because they don’t like their ideas examined or challenged. I nearly have a few times 😉
I’m sure some have (the Peanut gallery), but I would definitely not say most. There’s this crazy thing about Christians that compels them to spread the Good News, and most don’t just come to an atheist thread to toss peanuts at the atheists and run. Most come because they care, and are interested in how atheists “tick”.
I will keep it in mind, thanks, AofG
👍 You’re a good sport, A. (If you’re being serious, that is…)
Mainly because so often someone behaves as if their faith was fact. I don’t mind if people believe it, but when they try to pass these foul old prejudices off as fact, I tend to want to speak up. The bible is no more than a book.
I know it’s already been said before…but hey, isn’t that what this thread series is all about?

Here goes…

True believers truly believe that what they believe is true.
 
errr… not quite sure what you want to discuss in this thread but…

raises hand

I’m an atheist 🙂
Welcome, Darrian! I think you’re about on par with the rest of us re: your first line there…
 
I just wanted to add this transcript of the CNN story about Josh Kaye, the founder of BakeMeAWish. I see now I didn’t get all the facts correct, but the just of the story is the same. The last sentence says it all—“ I’m excited because I’m making a difference in this world, and that’s my goal in life. It`s about me being here to make this place a better place to live.”

What a wonderful spirit this human has! Did he just wake up one morning and it was there? Did his parents love him, protect him, teach him values? But what about those who grow up with limited traditional values impacted upon them and yet from somewhere their spirits shine upon the world?

Teri
Hi Teri,

The people that really interest me a lot are those who have been through Hell and back, and somehow come out of it all to be the most kind and compassionate and forgiving people. …Which you kind of alluded to above.
 
I’m not sure either…I haven’t read the thread through…

PART 4??? Already at over 900 posts? So like there’s almost 4000 posts??

There ain’t enough Ritalin on earth…

I mean, I could probably read War and Peace in the same amount of time, but at least there’s a foreseeable **conclusion **to that…

This thread looks less likely to end satisfactorily for any parties involved than the Wheel of Time series…😦

😃

I might stick my nose in from time to time. I’m not a good debater, nor an apologist – I’m relearning my faith from being somewhat lackadaisical – so my posts will probably be few and far between. And possibly beside the point. 👍

I have nothing against atheists. Some of my best friends, you know…have talked to atheists. 😃
Pier;3578479:
PS: Even though you don’t believe in Him, A don’t ever hesitate to ask Him for help if you need to - He is always there for us.
what can i say but… OMG.

kill me now.
What’s wrong with that suggestion? Put it to you this way…if I should ever fall off a cliff, I’m bloody well going to flap my arms all the way down.
 
Actually Ghoti, A and phooney have been a treat to talk with, once I got beyond my initial juvenile anger because they did not see the same as me concerning God. However, in my perhaps delusional way of seeing I can see the God’s love present in them and I have no problem with what they think about my belief.
 
Hi Teri,

The people that really interest me a lot are those who have been through Hell and back, and somehow come out of it all to be the most kind and compassionate and forgiving people. …Which you kind of alluded to above.
 
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