I am an atheist thread 5

[whiteknite]

phooney:-
Looks like i’m heading in the Athiest direction, LOL
Nobody has shown any proof or answered my questions with much sense, They think my knowledge of the bible is thin…

I have a mother who converted to Jehovas witness 24 yrs ago…
I have an auntie who is muslim…
An uncle who is on medication but reads the Mormons book when hes sain…
A nan who is catholic…
When you get all that while growing up…
Its makes sense why i dont believe in what they do…
Religon realy knows how to brainwash…

Ty for the welcome

 

[phooney]

@whiteknite

Wow, that’s a pretty diverse environment to grow up in.

Let me know if you have any questions about atheism, odds are that you’ve come across a few claims about atheism that don’t actually have anything to do with atheism.

All atheists necessarily must have is a lack of belief in a god. Whether you lack that belief, or believe there is no god, both positions qualify as atheist.

Being an atheist doesn’t mean you have to believe in evolution, doesn’t mean you have no morality, doesn’t mean you can’t believe in an afterlife, doesn’t mean you don’t believe in reincarnation, doesn’t mean you don’t believe in ghosts.

All it means is that you lack a belief in god. It’s not a philosophy, or a religion, it’s just a particular stance in regards to belief in a particular class of entity and only has a widely recognised word to describe it because the majority of the world does believe in a god.

 

[VociMike]

The point is that if your god is all they say he is, he must desire suffering or it would not exist.

No, it could be that he desires (for us) the thing of which suffering is a by-product. Not the same thing at all.

It’s one thing to disbelieve in God, another to create caricatures of Christian belief. I hope we don’t drift into the latter.

I would not glorify suffering for it’s own sake. Catholics do that whenever they gather and worship that dead-guy-on-a-stick-icon. It’s downright pornographic.

Not true, nobody is glorifying suffering for its own sake. We are glorifying God who chose to suffer and die (but, let’s never forget, who is now in eternal perfection) in order to lead us, without compelling us, back to himself. You could think that pornographic only if you think self-giving, self-sacrifice, unselfish love for others and for their greatest good is pornographic.

Not in suffering just for the sake of suffering. That is masochism, isn’t it?

Catholicism certainly does not endorse suffering for the sake of suffering. Do you really believe this? Or is it a convenient stick with which to beat Christians. Because if you really believe this, and really wish to understand more, I think a thread on the place of suffering in Christian thought and Christian life would be very interesting.

 

[VociMike]

Don’t worry, Vocimike. Not many other people have replied to me in equal detail either. If you’re not up to it, you’re not up to it.

I don’t write long posts to be inaccessible, I hope you realise. I write long posts to be thorough and to hopefully head any attempts of intentional and unintentional misinterpretation off at the pass.

Just break them up, then people can respond to those points they think most inviting of response. As a former atheist (more in practice than in philosophy) come-home-Catholic, I enjoy a good, respectful conversation on these topics. In bite-sized pieces.

If we could just get those 48 hour days working then this wouldn’t be so much of a problem.

 

[phooney]

Just break them up, then people can respond to those points they think most inviting of response. As a former atheist (more in practice than in philosophy) come-home-Catholic, I enjoy a good, respectful conversation on these topics. In bite-sized pieces.

If we could just get those 48 hour days working then this wouldn’t be so much of a problem.

lol, I know what you mean about those 48 hour days.

However, I do break them up. The forum requires that I break them up. I press “submit reply” it says “your post has 26,083 characters, the limit is 6,000 characters, please edit your post.” or something to that effect.

I break them up, and people like C659smith respond with things like “have you heard of this great new thing discovered by Isaac Newton?”

I think these are interesting and important issues, I don’t think breaking them up into one-liners does my point of view much justice, unless I was REALLY pressed for time. At the moment I’m just chilling out, listening to some music, so I don’t have such a restraint on my responses.

 

[phooney]

Some of you who have been following these “i am an atheist” threads may have noticed that I didn’t post for a week or so.

sniff Nobody noticed, eh?

Oh well, regardless, I have some photos that I thought I’d share, because I went on holiday to Croatia. This was a really beautiful place, and if you don’t mind some cheeky little lizards running around your feet every now and then, then I’d highly recommend visiting this friendly and affordable country with it’s Soviet, ancient Roman and general Italian influences.

Sunset view from our balcony

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Same view during the day

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Just looking from the end of the main drag back over the harbour. The tallest building you see is a good solid million year old cathedral of some kind.

img183.imageshack.us/img183/6942/croatiaapril2008052mb4.th.jpg

Here’s a clock tower

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I was absolutely amazed that people were still using these old buildings. Not only do they put shoe shops and ice cream stalls in these, but people still live in them. These walls are hundreds, maybe even approaching a thousand years old, and people are still hanging up their washing to dry:

img183.imageshack.us/img183/6503/croatiaapril2008079yj3.th.jpg

The water was absolutely amazingly clear… but too cold for comfortable swimming!

img148.imageshack.us/img148/1491/croatiaapril2008091ef0.th.jpg

 

[mom_of_ten]

Can you prove that (first, I think you need to define ‘worship’)? Or did you just pull it out of your opinion pile?

According to the bible (which you are welcome to treat as fiction - we all do to a point) your god created suffering.
He must have wanted it.

Your way of wording things is a bit rude for someone who posts on a forum to engage discussion…however, I will still reply:

It is well-known scientific fact that animals act on instinct alone; simply check out any “Animal Behavior 101” book and read.
Secondly, the Fall of Man through Adam and Eve brought sin into this world…I am not sure why you say that God created suffering.
The sin of man made all suffering enter the world…there was NO suffering in Paradise before the first sin of Adam and Eve.

why cant God channel it back and remind the FILTHY little holy man of his humanly duties??
You cant tell me that its individual humans that do that stuff and not holy people…

I am sorry, but I do not understand the two things you wrote above at all…therefore, I can not adequately reply; unless you would be kind enough to try to clarify what you wrote above…I re-read it several times; and I apologize, but I really haven’t an idea what you mean by what you wrote. If you try to explain it for me…I will be happy to reply. (Thanks)

 

[notself]

It is well-known scientific fact that animals act on instinct alone; simply check out any “Animal Behavior 101” book and read.

If animals acted on instinct alone, they could not learn new behaviors. They would be untrainable. You must be confusing animals with humans.

 

[phooney]

If animals acted on instinct alone, they could not learn new behaviors. They would be untrainable. You must be confusing animals with humans.

I too confuse humans and animals… what is the difference from an objective perspective? (if it is possible to present such a view)

And… welcome back to these threads, notself, I’ve missed your contributions.

 

[phooney]

And just before anybody asks, yes I can tell a difference between a human animal and another animal.

 

[mom_of_ten]

I would not glorify suffering for it’s own sake. Catholics do that whenever they gather and worship that dead-guy-on-a-stick-icon. It’s downright pornographic.

I’m sorry, but what you right about a symbol that portrays Jesus Christ is offensive and uncalled for…It is my understanding of these forums that offensive remarks are not to be present. I have not read anything that could be construed as offensive regarding your atheistic belief. On the contrary, I think that you have been treated very kindly and politely; and people have welcomed a discussion with you.

But, I will not stand by and reply not, when you take a symbol that is precious to Catholics (and by the way, we do not worship the crucifix…we worship The One Who is represented in the crucifix) and make a mockery of it with your insulting words. May God forgive you.

I encourage a moderator to put a stop to these outrageous and offensive remarks.

 

[mom_of_ten]

And yes, I know I used “right” instead of “write”…I did not preview my post as I should have…sorry.

 

[mom_of_ten]

Says you. He’s never done anything for me that I could reasonably attribute to him.

You just acknowledged His existence by that statement…hooray!

 

[phooney]

You just acknowledged His existence by that statement…hooray!

haha

I guess I could have said “the quick red fox jumps over the lazy brown dog” and acknowledged “His” existence for you.

Thanks for this, it is sometimes useful to have people inject humour into such discussions, and you have fulfilled that role admirably.

 

[Jacafamala]

Which god?

The One True God.

Have you ever played ‘god of the gaps’? The gaps are getting fewer. If you try to give a full description of your god, you will see that it has much in common with an imaginary god that doesn’t really exist.

I couldn’t give you a full description of God, A, that would take eternity and still I couldn’t do it.

There have been many gods. If you will indicate which one you have chosen as your saviour, we could start there.
Oh, and do use his right name. I understand that you just call him ‘God’, but they all do that, it can be very confusing…

You want me to name the God of the universe, the One True God.

After nearly five thousand posts I have read or written on these threads, I can only say ‘because I like it here’. (that’s the short and honest version. The whole story spans all five threads. I am simply unconvinced.

Cool. You are a contender.

Thanks very much. I have been made welcome here by nearly all the people who have stopped by, but it is still great to hear it from you!

 

[Minnie31]

Oh well, regardless, I have some photos that I thought I’d share, because I went on holiday to Croatia.

Beautiful photos Phooney! I hope you had a great holiday.

 

[Jacafamala]

I too confuse humans and animals… what is the difference from an objective perspective? (if it is possible to present such a view)

And… welcome back to these threads, notself, I’ve missed your contributions.

Humor? Bishop Fulton J. Sheen said that. I saw it last night on EWTN.

 

[Eden]

Like i said earlier, He must be very vain to create a race of man to Love him and bow to his every wim,
Slavery springs to mind, Your ok as long as you do as your told or you face the hell thing if you dont, Throughout history people have use the God thing to put points across,
If you put a group of people on a island and never told them about God then Its proven that they would invent 1…
Its in mans nature to need a leader or idol.

But we are not God’s slaves. That is why we have the free will to reject Him, as you have, because no real love can be forced. God most certainly *does not *force us to love Him. When you make the choice to reject God, He loves you so much that He respects your choice. Ultimately, you will receive the fullness of that choice by being eternally separated from Him. That is what Hell is, an eternal separation from God that you will have chosen. For believers, our eternal reward, if we sustain until the end, is to be in the eternal presence of the Lord. I don’t know where you are getting the idea that believers are slaves to God. Our love for Him is mutual and chosen freely (with the grace of God).

 

[Pier]

@Grace DK

An excellent argument for atheism, thanks.

I’d invite you to read up on game theory to go some way in explaining why that is.

That is pretty simple to answer by way of natural selection. Those without the genetic predisposition of the will to live are… less likely to live and pass on their genetic traits. Pretty easy open and shut case, did you really think this was an argument?

The most obvious response seems to be that joy is an internal emotion, whereas evil and catastrophes are external influences from the relative perspective of the person experiencing these three phenomena.

I can somewhat agree with this, many things are only appreciated when we have something to contrast them against. One would be irrational to suppose that one exists solely to bring the other into better focus though.

We create our own meaning for our lives.

If there’s anything you can talk about besides personal experience, in particular personal experiences better explained by natural means, then please tell us your story.

Hilarious. Do you have any information as to when this happened, or who it happened to? Nice anecdote. My sister once told me that she went up the tower in Pisa and she saw a guy looking out at the sun looking pretty contemplative. Out of nowhere, a tyranosaurus rex appeared out of thin air and farted down on his head. The man fell down, and my sister shouted “Jesus Christ!” and ran away. I think we’ve solved your little mystery… or are anecdotes only accepted when you are telling them?

A vague feeling. Great.

Sure she did. I also went to heaven, and it was Zeus in charge. Seriously, how credulous are you?

So, good manners went out with the bath water as well?

 

[notself]

I too confuse humans and animals… what is the difference from an objective perspective? (if it is possible to present such a view)

And… welcome back to these threads, notself, I’ve missed your contributions.

Thank you. I have been over on the thread where the Dalai Lama was accused of being the one of the most evil men on earth. It has been an interesting discussion.

Has there been any breakthroughs from either side in the past 2,000 posts?