I am an atheist thread 5

[Ronald_E]

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Would you mind expanding on that reaction of anger when people tell you to have faith? What do you perceive they are actually telling you to do, and why does it make your blood boil?

I haven’t been here for a while. Sorry about not answering sooner. This particular point is interesting for me to understand also. When I began to meditate in 1971 after getting out of the military with a few brain cells still intact I began to observe that underlying my low self worth and social anxiety was a deep rage against myself and others. The ‘others’ were those who seemed to set the rules of engagement to be a member of whatever organization they represented. It was then up to me to fit into their particular system if I were to have a ‘successful’ life and be seen as having value.
From my earliest memories I could instinctively know who was kind and who wasn’t. Unfortunately, it seemed that the kind people were not in the majority when I began to learn about God. There were angry nuns in grade school who were trying to teach me about God’s love. They did not look nor sound like they felt loved by God. Instead they seemed rigid with rules and punishment was swift. I remember taking objection to Sister Irene(which I think means peace) one day. She took me out in the hall and smacked me in the face. She failed me in science when I had perfect grades. My mother and father would not confront her nor the school authorities. That is just one incident.
In essence when we come into this world other people are busy trying to make us into something or believe something without first understanding the unique creation that each of us are.
Anyone who is self-aware will feel the disconnect and isolation that results from this dynamic.
So when someone who states that they believe in God but their disposition does not match my belief that God is love then my rage will get triggered. When they tell me to have faith without knowing who I instinctively ‘know’ that this person’s faith is without wisdom and wisdom can only be developed through love. A person with the wisdom of love will engage in a dialogue of mutual respect for a search for truth.
A person who tells me to have faith and that God loves me seems to be speaking down to me. Love does not speak down to anybody. Love seeks to understand.
My blood boils because what I see is lack of love and if I allow my boiling blood to act out I then become the identified problem. So I had to learn how to keep the tail from wagging the dog.
One of the ways I keep the tail from wagging me is to go for my morning Rosary Runs and the tail actually disappears and becomes love for those who the tail is angry with.
I am now going to run.
Take care Phooney. I hope you don’t mind me capitalizing your p. It just doesn’t seem to me that you should have a small p.

Haploid cells?

Good old evolution!

This goes back to game theory and it’s evolutionary implications. We are a social animal. Looking into primate evolution and our nearest evolutionary cousins we see many disconcerting parallels. Many of them too seem to do better at loving than hating and unfortunately, much like us, the loving is mostly done in-group and much of the hating is done out-group. Don’t get caught at ground zero between two rival tribes of Chimps. Did you know that some chimps have been observed making spears and hunting with them now?

Regardless of the existence of God, I see the absolute certainty that seems to exist in religions so prevalently, and on such shakey reasoning, as one of the biggest barriers we face today to changing our collective perception of what is in-group and out-group and thus causes of division and physical conflict. Of course, if there really is a god and he/she/it really wants to be worshipped in a particular way, then who am I to argue?

Glad you’re enjoying it!

 

[Ronald_E]

I forgot to delete your responses below my response to you. I will reply to those later.

 

[_A]

It seems that my opinion is not welcome here. In particular my statement that the popular crucifix with its gaping wounds is pornographic.
I must stand by it, so I think that signals my end here. We shall see.
In any case, it has been great to share with you here, and the mods are doing a tough job, under trying circumstances. Give them all the support you can.

 

[Ronald_E]

It seems that my opinion is not welcome here. In particular my statement that the popular crucifix with its gaping wounds is pornographic.
I must stand by it, so I think that signals my end here. We shall see.
In any case, it has been great to share with you here, and the mods are doing a tough job, under trying circumstances. Give them all the support you can.

A, I hope you are not leaving. I would like to discuss your distress associated with the Crucifix because I think your statement exhibits your pain. Now I could be wrong and I am sure you will tell me. However, I believe that your words about the Crucifix reveal an underlying passionate expression of pain and I believe that if I as one who believes that God is real should be open to discuss this with you. Because the God that I know cannot be hurt by what you say. The God I know wants me to understand another person’s pain no matter how it is expressed.
One thing I learned with every person I have come in contact with throughout my life, including myself.
The question is, Will you love me if I show you what I have hidden from you that you consider ugly and unacceptable? Or will you just get rid of me?
A, I hope you are able to stay.
Ron

 

[notself]

A, I hope you are not leaving. I would like to discuss your distress associated with the Crucifix because I think your statement exhibits your pain. Now I could be wrong and I am sure you will tell me. A, I hope you are able to stay.
Ron

A,

You need to stay. Many posters want to hear opinions from those who think differently than the majority. Without communication, there can be no understanding and respect.

Ronald,

Many people see the crucifix differently than Catholics. I have a Protestant friend who unexpectedly saw a Catholic crucifix and visibly flinched as one would when seeing any dead body. That is what the crucifix represents to many non Catholics and non Christians. I know it is difficult for Catholics to understand.

I have another friend who wouldn’t go to see “The Passion of the Christ”. Her reason was that she refused to see a “snuf film”. When someone sees a symbol without belief in its underlying meaning, one has different reactions. You see the sacrifice of your God. Non believers see a tortured body of a man who was executed for his beliefs.

 

[_A]

A, I hope you are not leaving.

It is not my intent, but if my views bring me in to conflict with the mods, I may be asked to leave. If asked, I will leave. I post on other forums and, while I do really enjoy this one, there are plenty of others, no need to persist where I am unwelcome.

I would like to discuss your distress associated with the Crucifix because I think your statement exhibits your pain.

Again you comment on my person instead of the issue. Is this to compensate for the fact that you can not address issue rationally? What possible need is there to show that kind of graphic violence to everyone (including children!!)
It is considered obscene enough to get an ‘R’ rating in most jurisdictions, at least in my experience. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mind obscenity, even enjoy the odd Quentin Tarantino movie or XXX movie, but they should be treated a little bit differently than media intended for all-ages enjoyment.

A, I hope you are able to stay.
Ron

Thank you for saying so.

A,

You need to stay. Many posters want to hear opinions from those who think differently than the majority. Without communication, there can be no understanding and respect.

Thank you, as long as I am welcome, I will be glad to stay.

Non believers see a tortured body of a man who was executed for his beliefs.

For me it is simpler still. I see the tortured body of a man. It belongs with the other ‘R’ and ‘X’ rated material.

 

[the_phoenix]

Dear A,

I also hope you will be able to stay here at CAF.

As for your concerns with the crucifix portraying graphic and in fact gruesome violence, I can tell you that having seen Mel Gibson’s movie “The Passion of the Christ,” there was a man sitting nearby me that could not stand to see the amount of brutality, so he got up and walked out of the movie.

I fully respected his decision to leave, and in fact I suggested to a friend of mine with a serious heart condition that maybe she would be better off not seeing so violent a movie, as it might upset her physically so much that her health might be at risk.

I stayed the full length of the movie. What I got out of it was the extreme amount of love it took for Jesus to suffer what He did for us, and how that love transcended the incredible amount of evil all around Him.

Thank you for reminding me of that just now.

~~ the phoenix

 

[_A]

Dear A,

I also hope you will be able to stay here at CAF.

Thanks.

As for your concerns with the crucifix portraying graphic and in fact gruesome violence, I can tell you that having seen Mel Gibson’s movie “The Passion of the Christ,” there was a man sitting nearby me that could not stand to see the amount of brutality, so he got up and walked out of the movie.

I can stand seeing violence portrayed in art without any trouble, but to see such pornography shown to children and called love gets my hackles up. They had a giant sculpture of a dying man hung up on a stick in our school when I was FIVE YEARS OLD.
Pornrgraphy is not for children.

I fully respected his decision to leave, and in fact I suggested to a friend of mine with a serious heart condition that maybe she would be better off not seeing so violent a movie, as it might upset her physically so much that her health might be at risk.

I would recommend something inspirational instead…like ‘Growing Up In The Universe’

I stayed the full length of the movie.

Don’t worry, I enjoy ‘blood and guts’, too. If you consider what comes out of Hollywood, so do most movie-goers

What I got out of it was the extreme amount of love it took for Jesus to suffer what He did for us, and how that love transcended the incredible amount of evil all around Him.

Look at it a little broader, for a moment.
If your god created everything, and is perfect, he created his own suffering, too.
Why do you suppose he had to torture himself to change a rule which he created?

 

[the_phoenix]

Thanks.I can stand seeing violence portrayed in art without any trouble, but to see such pornography shown to children and called love gets my hackles up. They had a giant sculpture of a dying man hung up on a stick in our school when I was FIVE YEARS OLD.

It seems to me that you are perhaps a more sensitive soul in this way than I am, and that you were so from a very young age. This could well be a great strength of yours.

I would recommend something inspirational instead…like ‘Growing Up In The Universe’

From the admittedly little I’ve seen of Dawkins’ use of the terms “creation” and “creatures”, his use of these terms seems perplexing rather than uplifting. If only “creatures” can create “creation” … Well, who created the creatures in the first place?

Don’t worry, I enjoy ‘blood and guts’, too. If you consider what comes out of Hollywood, so do most movie-goersLook at it a little broader, for a moment.

Saw part of Rambo, thought all the gunfire was meaningless, boring, and stupid. Couldn’t understand why the movie was so popular, apart from people being fans of Sylvester Stallone.

Saw Robocop … didn’t like the violence presented therein, found it disturbing, uncalled for, and not entertaining, and therefore decided it was a mistake for me to have seen it.

Had a friend who wanted to see The Passion of the Christ basically because he thought the torture scenes would be cool, is what I gathered from what he said and the, to my mind, bloodthirsty tone in which he said it. I made it a point never to get together again with this particular individual … this, among other things, creeped me out.

I put myself through watching the violence in The Passion of the Christ because I knew that the story did not end with the cross but with the Resurrection, life conquering death, good overcoming evil … and the film was made bearable due to the portrayal of heroic love that I witnessed.

If your god created everything, and is perfect, he created his own suffering, too.
Why do you suppose he had to torture himself to change a rule which he created?

God loved humanity enough to create us with free will, which allowed us mere humans to make a radical mess of all creation through sin. God still loved humanity so much that, seeing finite humanity incapable of repairing the infinite damage caused by sin, chose to suffer on behalf of His fallen creatures by sending His Son, fully God and fully Man, into the world to repair the damage.

~~ the phoenix

 

[_A]

From the admittedly little I’ve seen of Dawkins’ use of the terms “creation” and “creatures”, his use of these terms seems perplexing rather than uplifting. If only “creatures” can create “creation” … Well, who created the creatures in the first place?

When you ask the question like that, it suggests that a creator is the answer already.

Saw part of Rambo, thought all the gunfire was meaningless, boring, and stupid. Couldn’t understand why the movie was so popular, apart from people being fans of Sylvester Stallone.

I thought it was terrific!

I put myself through watching the violence in The Passion of the Christ because I knew that the story did not end with the cross but with the Resurrection, life conquering death, good overcoming evil … and the film was made bearable due to the portrayal of heroic love that I witnessed.

‘Rambo’ was the story of John Rambo, a soldier gets into a situation where the only answer he can see is deadly force.
This passion one is a magical man in the sky who comes to earth as a human, then sacrifices himself to himself to appease himself so that he can allow some of us pathetic humans (which he created exactly as he wished) the privilege of worshiping him for eternity.
One of those stories has a hero in it.

 

[the_phoenix]

When you ask the question like that, it suggests that a creator is the answer already.

Would you or Dawkins have another way to ask the question?

I thought it was terrific!
‘Rambo’ was the story of John Rambo, a soldier gets into a situation where the only answer he can see is deadly force.

I’m open to the possibility of Rambo being terrific. See, what happened in my movie-going experience was that the University was offering a Wednesday afternoon chicken wing special with a free movie. I walked in on Rambo after it had started, and probably missed the whole backstory. So it just seemed to me like a looooonnnnngg session of gunfire. At this stage of the game, whenever anyone mentions Rambo, all’s I associate with it is shooting, Sylvester Stallone, … and mouth-wateringly delicious chicken wings, for which I’m getting hungry right now.

This passion one is a magical man in the sky who comes to earth as a human, then sacrifices himself to himself to appease himself so that he can allow some of us pathetic humans (which he created exactly as he wished) the privilege of worshiping him for eternity.

Recently I’ve spoken to a former atheist, who assured me that when she was an atheist, she really did want to believe in God, but simply could not. This sort of thing (the concept of wanting to believe but not being able to) is almost incomprehensible to me, but as she’s a good friend, I trust her on it. Just wanted to acknowledge that.

~~ the phoenix

 

[_A]

Would you or Dawkins have another way to ask the question?

I don’t know. If you could formulate a better question I will have a go at a better answer, though. I don’t know what Dawkins would say as I have not read much of his stuff.
By the way, I do not choose to name my ignorance God and worship it.

I’m open to the possibility of Rambo being terrific. See, what happened in my movie-going experience was that the University was offering a Wednesday afternoon chicken wing special with a free movie. I walked in on Rambo after it had started, and probably missed the whole backstory. So it just seemed to me like a looooonnnnngg session of gunfire. At this stage of the game, whenever anyone mentions Rambo, all’s I associate with it is shooting, Sylvester Stallone, … and mouth-wateringly delicious chicken wings, for which I’m getting hungry right now.

I’m in. Think I’ll make mine spicy!

Recently I’ve spoken to a former atheist, who assured me that when she was an atheist, she really did want to believe in God, but simply could not. This sort of thing (the concept of wanting to believe but not being able to) is almost incomprehensible to me, but as she’s a good friend, I trust her on it. Just wanted to acknowledge that.

~~ the phoenix

I simply have seen no evidence suitable to back the claims made by religions.
It wouldn’t be a matter of belief if there were anything to it. I don’t ‘believe in’ the theory of gravity, but I can get quite confident about some predictions that I might make with it, since there are observations and tests available to me.

Not so with your invisible man in the sky.

 

[Armor_of_God]

Hi A,

So, when are we going fishing, anyway?

 

[_A]

Hi A,

So, when are we going fishing, anyway?

The ice is just coming off the lakes, and I expect to be going soon. When can we go? If you get here this week I will take you out immediately ( subject to my boating rules, naturally). If you wait a little while there will be more open water. I think the ferry is running across the Mackenzie, but if you are driving, you might want to check first.
The summer solstice is a pretty neat time to be up here, but the auroras you can see when there is night can be pretty awesome, too…let me know what you decide and I will make sure the boat is ‘ship-shape and Bristol-style’

 

[Armor_of_God]

The ice is just coming off the lakes, and I expect to be going soon. When can we go? If you get here this week I will take you out immediately ( subject to my boating rules, naturally). If you wait a little while there will be more open water. I think the ferry is running across the Mackenzie, but if you are driving, you might want to check first.
The summer solstice is a pretty neat time to be up here, but the auroras you can see when there is night can be pretty awesome, too…let me know what you decide and I will make sure the boat is ‘ship-shape and Bristol-style’

Unfortunately, my “trusty steed” is out of commission for the time being. So, I will have to delay a journey to the North for now. However, I would be happy to see your photographs!

I think it would be neat to experience the solstice. Besides the longest day of the year, how many more days do you have of little to no darkness?

BTW, may I ask what your boating rules are?
And what is Bristol-style?

 

[mom_of_ten]

Look at it a little broader, for a moment.
If your god created everything, and is perfect, he created his own suffering, too.
Why do you suppose he had to torture himself to change a rule which he created?

Again…suffering is NOT a creation of GOD…it is a CONSEQUENCE of MAN’S FALLEN BEHAVIOR. Christ’s suffering is an immense GIFT to us…for HE, the LORD GOD, was willing to endure the consequence of man’s fallen behavior, in order to take it off of our shoulders and upon His Own, for the redemption of all mankind.

There is a HUGE difference between a “dead man on a stick” and “JESUS CHRIST, THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD, ON A CROSS”

May you be blessed

 

[HelenaMT]

It wouldn’t be a matter of belief if there were anything to it. I don’t ‘believe in’ the theory of gravity, but I can get quite confident about some predictions that I might make with it, since there are observations and tests available to me.

Not so with your invisible man in the sky.

This is my first post here, but as a former atheist,then agnostic, then Catholic, I have come to realize that no one can convince an atheist to believe in God since the only convincing evidence you can offer would be hard scientific evidence (which, if it existed, would seem to make the whole concept that He gave us free will to believe or not silly-there must be a value in the struggle to understand the world).

The logic argument about primary causes is useless to an atheist as well because it is not able to be proven empirically, and they don’t accept that God is the one thing that can be eternal.

Someone who needs verifiable scientific evidence to come to belief simply won’t.

I believe that the only way an atheist can come to God is through his own personal spiritual experience. I doubt any atheists have or will ever come to God by way of some scientific proof or clever argument.

 

[_A]

Unfortunately, my “trusty steed” is out of commission for the time being. So, I will have to delay a journey to the North for now. However, I would be happy to see your photographs!

I will see what I can do for you.

I think it would be neat to experience the solstice. Besides the longest day of the year, how many more days do you have of little to no darkness?

The sun goes down all year here (62 degrees north) but we have twilight all night for almost two months.

BTW, may I ask what your boating rules are?

Well, one is that if everyone aboard agrees to go onward, onward we go. If one person feels unsafe or scared, we go back to shore.
I go boating for fun, being scared in a boat is no fun (been there).
Another is 'wear your lifejacket or get out and walk.
One more - no drunkenness.
Yet another, if you litter, it will be your last trip on the ‘Moon Gin’ (named after a man)
Lastly, the captain is in charge completely.
By the way, if you agree with the rules completely, and agree to be responsible for their enforcement, I don’t mind if you are the captain that day.

And what is Bristol-style?

As I understand the saying, Bristol was a famous shipyard that was known for doing a good job on refits.

Again…suffering is NOT a creation of GOD…it is a CONSEQUENCE of MAN’S FALLEN BEHAVIOR.

Man is exactly the way your god created him, or your god is less than perfect.
Or perhaps he is imaginary. That is the best answer I have found.

Christ’s suffering is an immense GIFT to us…for HE, the LORD GOD, was willing to endure the consequence of man’s fallen behavior, in order to take it off of our shoulders and upon His Own, for the redemption of all mankind.

He could have just forgiven his creation. The ‘suffering’ was something he chose because he wanted it that way.
That or he is not all-powerful.
Consider that he just may be an invented figure. It makes a lot more sense.

There is a HUGE difference between a “dead man on a stick” and “JESUS CHRIST, THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD, ON A CROSS”

No difference that I can see except semantics. Why don’t you tell me the difference?
To me, it is no more that sensationalizing suffering. Fine for adult entertainment, but children should be protected from such pornography until they are older and more mature - same as for Quentin Tarantino movies.

This is my first post here,

Welcome! I hope you find much to contribute.

Someone who needs verifiable scientific evidence to come to belief simply won’t.

I think that this shows how nonsensical belief in a god is…especially belief in a certain god. I think Homer Simpson raised an excellent question when he said ‘what if we picked the wrong god and every time we go to church we just make him madder and madder?’

EDIT - to add the text in red.

 

[helena38]

Hi, and thanks for the welcome.

I think that this shows how nonsensical belief in a god is…especially belief in a certain god.

Only if you take for granted that the only things worth pondering are the things that can be proven with modern scientific method. If that is your position, that’s fine, but there are other ways to make rational decisions about what we believe that are not based on scientifically verifiable evidence, yet are not nonsensical.

How do we decide that it is wrong to molest children? In some ancient cultures what we call child molestation was normal behavior. You can’t scientifically prove that it is wrong, but we know it is.

How do we decide that it is wrong to execute a thief rather than incarcerate him? We have concluded that this is wrong but we can’t prove it in any way.

I’m not laying out a defense of every sort of moral standard that can justify itself within it’s own set of rules, just trying to explain my point that there is value to beliefs even though they cannot be proven empirically.

I think Homer Simpson raised an excellent question when he said ‘what if we picked the wrong god and every time we go to church we just make him madder and madder?’

As for Homer Simpson, he has a point. If we aren’t employing ANY reason to our faith (disbelieving obvious and provable scientific evidence, or believing without ever trying to understand why you believe what you do) ,we may pick the wrong god, and while we won’t know if it makes him mad, we’d definitely be wasting our own time.

 

[_A]

Hi, and thanks for the welcome.

My pleasure.

Only if you take for granted that the only things worth pondering are the things that can be proven with modern scientific method. If that is your position, that’s fine, but there are other ways to make rational decisions about what we believe that are not based on scientifically verifiable evidence, yet are not nonsensical.

‘Modern scientific method’ relies on our observational reality. Saying that your god is not available to understanding through that method is admitting that it has no effect on observational reality.
Your god only has effect in the minds of believers.

How do we decide that it is wrong to molest children? In some ancient cultures what we call child molestation was normal behavior. You can’t scientifically prove that it is wrong, but we know it is.

Are you suggesting that without your belief in a magical invisible man in the sky you would find it acceptable to molest children? Are you suggesting that it is the BIBLE that tells us that is wrong? Remember all the little children that good old Yahweh had killed? That is biblical morality for you.

How do we decide that it is wrong to execute a thief rather than incarcerate him? We have concluded that this is wrong but we can’t prove it in any way.

We decided, as a culture, to be decent despite the horrible advice in the bible. The bible suggests that a child who merely curses it’s parents should be killed. What a beastly book we have all left behind.

I’m not laying out a defense of every sort of moral standard that can justify itself within it’s own set of rules, just trying to explain my point that there is value to beliefs even though they cannot be proven empirically.

There is no value to belief that could not be gained in another way, and when it is treated and taught as fact, it is as clearly harmful as tall buildings falling down on people.

As for Homer Simpson, he has a point. If we aren’t employing ANY reason to our faith (disbelieving obvious and provable scientific evidence, or believing without ever trying to understand why you believe what you do) ,we may pick the wrong god, and while we won’t know if it makes him mad, we’d definitely be wasting our own time.

To believe the bible would require disbelieving obvious and provable scientific evidence. You must worship a different god than the god of the bible. Which one, may I ask, survives obvious and provable scientific evidence?